Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

tl;dr (but you should)

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

Was hoping for the actual change to be told but I suppose it's better than nothing. I think this all discourages noodle manipulation for the most part though. We still don't know if collusion will still be possible or if it won't. Just that they will implement a rule to discourage it more. A team designing a strategy around noodle manipulation would be pretty dark in the water right now.

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

Agreed. And even, the current update, almost makes the noodle agreement even more favorable due to the extra sentence added talking about the variability of the noodle game pieces!

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

Is variability in game piece really that big of "news"? Back in 2012, balls varied wildly. In 2013, the height of the rungs to the pyramid varied ~2" competition to competition, and even sometimes from one side of the field to another! If you expected foam noodles to stay in pristine condition all throughout the competition, you were in for a surprise anyways...

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

I am reasonably pleased by the post. Sure, I would have loved to see the actual rule change, but simply knowing that the GDC prefers that we not have a Noodle Agreement is a good... I'm sure it will fix the problem to the point that such noodling will not greatly affect that standings.....

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

Have you read the team update released today by FRC? Is the noodle agreement out? The director of FRC said that they will make rules to discourage this activity.

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

I've read it.

MORE IMPORTANT than the note is that the GDC not only is working on taking action now, but that they found not one, but TWO methods of collusion prior to releasing the game, and eliminated one before release, then worked their hardest to simplify the rules and still remove TNA as much as they could.

They're getting a lot better at identifying potential trouble spots! I would guess that they've got some ideas already and are just taking extra time to kick them around and make sure they won't cause worse problems.

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

Interesting that they said it wont completely remove the loophole but only discourage it. I would think they would add colors to the noodles and then penalize you for litter of your color on your side. Honestly I think the best option would be to allow the robots to throw the noodles, since then there is a high chance that most alliances would have a noodle throwing robot, making the noodle agreement much harder to agree on.

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

Unless they change G24, having a noodle throwing robot doesn't seem to make much sense. Now if the same robot could instead place a noodle into a bin, now that is worth something. There are other good uses as well but I will let you figure them out. :)

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

Yeah, thats what I was talking about, amending G24 to allow robots throwing noodles to the other side.

Either way, generally speaking I dont think putting litter in cans should be a priority, I think time could be spent better building 6 high stacks, plus since you can put noodles directly into the bin from the human station its really not necessary to build noodle loaders, just bring the bin to the loading station, which most robots would probably be able to do, so its actually not as big of an issue as it first seems.

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

I am also pleased that Frank confirmed the GDC intentions and that they had identified the potential prior to releasing the game. Interesting that they chose not to implement a "fix" until after release.

Here is what I would prefer to see happen:

G33 LITTER may be introduced onto the FIELD only during TELEOP and only in the following ways:
A. through the LITTER CHUTE, or
B. over the ALLIANCE WALL during the last twenty (20) seconds of the MATCH.
VIOLATION: FOUL per LITTER.

Scoring Change:

LITTER Scored in/on a RECYCLING CONTAINER 6 per LITTER

UNPROCESSED LITTER Bonus 0 per LITTER

COOPERTITION LITTER Scored in a LANDFILL ZONE or STEP * 1 per LITTER

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

My guess is they wanted to see how teams would handle it, but this thread convinced them it wasn't going over how they wanted. It also explains why the fix wasn't ready, since the thread was only started a few hours before the update.

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

To be honest, I'm all for changing the noodle rule from a bonus to the other team to a penalty for the team with the "unprocessed litter". I believe it to be the simplest way to discourage TNA. Maybe make it a two point penalty or something.

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

AndreaC.

Without quoting you....Once TNA was a mentioned game strategy (BTW the most discussed game strategy so far on CD by the length of threads and extreme number of posts mentioning TNA or other pasta recipies). Recent history proves, that some form of it will survive into the competitions, if the rules were simply not changed (some change there is coming, we now know so, by Frank's long note), and say the GDC just decided to (as you suggested), simply suggest Teams & Alliances should not participate in any form of Noodly (or Pasta or littering), Collusion.

Just reading on CD long enough will show, that the overlying thoughts of "If there isn't a specific game rule against a certain thing published in the rules, then It is legal, and a viable game strategy if it scores points, or keeps your opponent from scoring points." And yes, even if you both can score points....Afterall, it still is a COMPETITION.

The problem with TNA given the possible points one can amass (and the change from W-L-T to Qualifying Average Points or QA this year), of +40~+50possible max litter points per game (if the strategy is employed, agreed to, and carried out fully by all parties (any really, since just 1 match, any 2 alliances can employ it and therefore force all others following, to also either employ it also, or risk as a group, falling way behind in their possible total points averages), all the possible points will total using a successful across the board TNA Strategy will be between 400~500 points for each team over 10 Q matches (depending on either collusion strategy employed "The Full Monte" =10 littered per side = +40, or "The Half/Half" =use 5 in RC's/litter 5 up to= +50 points per Alliance and team). There are also many other combinations possible too (up to 7 RC's for 1 side/7 used in scored bins 7X6=+42 plus 3 littered -12, or 3 Landfilled scored +3...or, or, or....

400~500 possible "easily scored points" over a 10 Q period is huge in the QA points averaging, and would not easily be dismissed out of hand as a game strategy (It takes 200~250 Grey properly placed & stacked Totes to score that many points over the same 10 Q matches!) Of course, that does not add the possible RC (including the level multiplyers), & Litter bonuses either, but you cannot score those unless stacking Grey Totes.

I'll go 1 further....Just read a Q&A question and answer that made me think even further about possible TNA Strategies...Drive Team Members/Human Players (minus the coaches since they cannot touch the game pcs.), may according to the question posed (though asked not fully in the only possible scenario...They asked about Human Players only, & the answer was more encompassing than the question though w/ starting line limits for Drivers....).

Ok, the Question posed without quoting (I have no access currently to the actual Q&A), was...."Can Human players touch the Totes & the Litter & enter the Human Player Zones during the Auto period"....The answer was (without quoting again)...."YES, Human players even during AUTO can handle the game pcs., and can enter the Human Zones, though DRIVERS must remain behind the Start Line. (Which extends from carpet edge to carpet edge, BTW), they...HUMAN PLAYERS, can even enter game pcs. onto the field...Remember those possibly removed Yellow Totes? At first I wondered why you would ever want to remove one...ever, now I know why.

Throwing away that previous rule book meant HUGE (not just big), changes were coming (rarely could human players, or drivers, do anything but wait patiently...(except during the hybrid-auto start 2 yrs. ago),...during the Auto period). This year, up to 9 Human Players & even Drivers (as long as Drivers stay behind the start line....Nobody asked/answered, about where Coaches can go yet), can take some kind of game pc. action during the Auto Period (even the Coaches can help direct them, as long as they don't actually touch the game pcs.).

OK, reason I stated all the above....Let's say that all stayed the same as is now concerning published Litter Rules....The TNA is discussed and 5 of 6 Teams Agree to collude (1 says...absolutely not, we created a fantastic Litter manipulator, and by gosh, we plan to deploy & employ it in this game, we will show you!

The other 5 all wink at each other & nod (the 3 Coaches get w/ the other 2 Coaches, if even by a simple pre-worked up hand signal, while superteam is attaching their hard labor created and super fantastic Litter Inserter, and the match is about to start. The TNA is on even if the 6th team does not wish to play the game that way (I agree, no team should ever be forced to participate in TNA if they do not wish to be), so everybody get behind the Start Line Please, the match is about to begin.....

The Human Player of one of the TNA agreed 5 Teams gets right in the middle between the Litter Bin and the Drivers...facing the Litter Bin, And, as soon as the Buzzer sounds to start the Auto Period (Arms wide, snatches all 10 of the Litter, and walks them over to 1 of the Human Player Zones and stores them right under the Tote Chute and takes up residence in that Human Zone throughout the match (same on the other end of the field, same side of the field...so vision is easiest maybe?...Though I would think that will be very difficult and extremely tenuous at the very best after walls of 6 high + stacks are formed, by my view!)

Now, the team that didn't want to play TNA (and has a Litter manipulator), is forced to play TNA whether they like to or not (and will gain the +40 points if TNA is successful, but, may just be unhappy anyway with that forced 5/1 or 4/2 Tteam/2 Alliance Collusion without their willful participation), their Human Player cannot enter the occupied HP Zone, as long as the HP stays in that zone, without incurring the wrath of a FOUL, cannot reach into that zone to snatch a Litter pc. from their own alliance member Human player, or even test their Litter manipulator in real field conditions...And TNA is still employed. (Though how successfully...would be certainly a matter of personal perspective). Not everybody agrees in Majority Rules when dealing w/ multiple team game strategy...Feelings can still be hurt easily.

See, the GDC dealing with it to either negate the plusses (or at least reducing the plusses), of employing TNA as a Game Strategy has a ton of merit....If nothing else but a simple peacekeeping method. And a method to certainly make the game a bit more enjoyable.

I think you'll find that it will be harder to use the TNA "Littering Strategy of...."You put 1 in, we put 1 in, back & forth," agreement honesty verifyier method, in the last 20 match seconds, will find their vision much hampered by all those totes and bins nicely stacked on both ends of each field in 4 pretty solid high walls...At least I certainly surely hope THEY ALL DO!

(PS: By the above method...Only 2 Single Teams...1 each from opposing Alliances in Match 1, could actually force almost All Teams into TNA without a problem (or the rest get left in the dust in QA), by simply employing at the same time the very simple 10 Pasta Snatch/HZ Campout each). So Massive TNA Collusion isn't really necessary at all. Try that on for size.

I am fully looking forward to the publishing of a Litter rule change.:D

Re: The Noodle Agreement
 

RIP Noodle Agreement
1/3/2015-1/9/2015
"You Do It! No You FIRST!"

Rule Update 2015-01-09:
http://contentviewer.adobe.com/s/FIR...tes/cover.html