Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

So, this is strictly IMHO, and feel free to shoot me down or point out misses in my reading of the rules I may have made. But, there are some pretty scary things that the rules allow, or more properly explicitly don't disallow. Here are the three that I've found.

1. Driving on top of Totes. I'm not suggesting this would be a good idea, but there's no rule I can find that prohibits a robot from using a mechanism to drive on top of a Tote. Seems like a safety concern as that would put the robot pretty close to the top of the guardrail.

2. Really tall stacks of stuff falling. While it might not be a sound game strategy, nothing prohibits the carrying of a stack of 6 totes topped by a recycling container. That's a pretty scary situation if the green garbage can at the top starts wobbling in your direction.

3. Obnoxiously large robots. Again, as with all of these points, I'm not sure why you'd want to do this, but....nothing prevents you from making a 27 foot long robot. While I can't imagine your alliance partners being happy with this, this isn't explicitly prevented and could really be a downer if the team insisted on going on the field with all 27 feet.

My point in this post is to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek about the matter. I know we could file all of these under "safety" if something goes wrong. But, at the same time at least the first two examples above could be excecuted safely, but if not executed properly would become unsafe.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

The twenty foot long (or wide) bot may be a legit option this year. Just sayin.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

The size of the robot was purposeful. They did that fully existing someone to create massive robots, and honestly? I can't wait. I can't see why you would drive on top of a tote, that just seems silly and not all that unsafe either. And the stacks will be interesting...build rugged bots!!! :D

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Not to mention the noodle agreement. Did no one see that coming?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

What about rugged skulls for field reset and referees? Hard hats anyone?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Also, some things I noticed:

1. Since you don't need bumpers, there's nothing actually stopping you from making a flying robot or helicopter thing. It also could fly infinitely high since it itself isn't 78 inches tall.

2. Both alliances can drop all of their litter on their side of the feild, giving each other 40 points, raising the QA.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

This will most likely damage the tote. Continually damaging the totes will lead to penalties for your team.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I wouldn't bet on that. Nice rubber treads with some good clearance and I can't say you'd definitely damage them. We've had mentors and students alike sit on totes in the past and they don't break, so it isn't like they aren't strong enough to suppor the weight.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

However, the robot battery is your only legal power source, per R20. Good luck getting that thing off the ground. It's not impossible, but hard to do.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I suppose we should also call R21 the Exploding Bacon-Pink-Cryptonite rule too. Congrats! Your team has a rule change (or clarification) for the ages!

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Can someone link the story behind this?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

There may have been a few "Hey look, we got a rule!" screams every time a new person saw it... can neither confirm nor deny...

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Flight is prohibited, as is jumping IIRC. I would double check the manual, but we're probably not considering flight.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Apparently not. But we're talking about the GDC that missed the rather unsafe last 20 second hail of frisbees in 2013. They're all very smart people; there's just something about the process that makes oversights like this inevitable.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Orlando Regional Elims last year. Something went wrong on Bacon and they needed to be a push bot for a match, so they added batteries for ballast (not connected electrically), ran it by an inspector and got it okayed. Then it was retroactively declared illegal and the alliance was retroactively DQ'd after they had advanced. Pretty painful on all sides. Last year's R21 equivalent was slightly fuzzy on whether ballast batteries were legal. It seemed like ballast batteries were probably illegal, but only after some heavy careful word parsing. Glad to see they've made it abundantly clear this year.
I don't see any rules that prohibit flight, actually. Though practically speaking, you're just not making a drone with an 8 lb payload out of RS550s, a lead acid battery, and all the required electronics.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Thanks for the explanation. I cant wait to get to do the same with the noodle agreement!

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Tethered mini bots. So long as they all share 1 battery, 1 PDP, etc you can make as many connected mini bots as you want.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Why stop at minibots? You could have multiple full size bots stacked to the limit sharing a power source LoL

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

The only thing I've seen for #1 so far is G7, but that's just for pre/post match.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I'm pretty sure it's legal to make a giant crane in the center of the field... That would be one awesome robot.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Provided it doesn't go over 78 inches. Hmm, I just noticed, no metric equivalents this year.

Regarding transporting tall stacks, you might fall afoul of this rule:
Questionable if a container toppling off the top of a stack and onto a volunteer outside the field is still in "control" of the robot - but do you want to take that risk?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

My mind just exploded, a robot with no wheels
and
your alliance partners feeding TOTES to the.... Cranebot!!!!!!

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Our team, with limited engineering resources this year, probably is not going to take these risks. However, there are several awesome teams out there who could build an awesome crane. You don't need to drive or anything....

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I just noticed a potential heartbreak for alliances. Since average scores determine qual winners one bad match completely sinks you.

G5 gives a foul for 2 HP in an alliance zone, and an additional foul for every tote put on the field during that time.

G6 gives a foul for touching the tote and chute door at the same time.

A team that didn't read the rules could put all 30 totes on the field while violating both these rules, racking up 61 fouls and -366 points. With this all happening to the side the other alliances might not notice until the end and find out they got 0 points.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I'm ~90% sure that either a referee or field crew member would inform the offending teams of their errors rather than simply allowing penalties to accumulate.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Cranebot? If you really want your mind blown, consider the fact that nowhere in the rules does it say the robot has to be in contact with the floor...I predict this is the year we see robots go airborne.

We've never been told about fouls until after matches, and we've learned to sit tight and be ready to send someone into the question box after a match for clarification. Not every team has developed that practice...at events you go to, do refs/field crews typically seek out teams during/after matches to talk about fouls? We do that for alliance partners, I'm just curious if event crews do that, also.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Last year, our human player was reminded mid-match by (I don't know if it was field reset or a referee) about the rule preventing him from extending past the tape on the barrier. Had that not happened, we would have ended up with quite a lot of penalties that match.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Referees DO signal that fouls are happening, as they happen. Watch for the flags to go up; refs will often point at the offending robot.

During practice, it's not uncommon for SoCal refs to flag down a flagged team and let them know what penalties they picked up during the practice match. During qual matches, the Head Referee will inform the MC what the fouls were and the MC will announce them.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

At the very least, there would have been a ref waving a flag and pointing at the person committing the foul when they did it.

Depending on the game, it's sometimes possible for a ref to quickly say something to the person committing the infraction. Aerial Assist was a bit unique in that regard - it was so dependent on split-second entry from the refs that they had to stay at their tablets through the entire match.

My personal approach as a head ref: if a team's behaviour during the match suggests to me that they don't understand the rules, or if they keep getting the same foul over and over, I'll try to make a point of talking to the team. Of course, the match schedule and everything else going on sometimes doesn't allow me to do this.

At least at the events I've been to (Ontario and Quebec), it's standard practice for the head ref to give the MC/game announcer a summary of all the fouls, and these get announced when the final match score is displayed. Do other areas not do this?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Here in Texas, we do get the flag wave, as well as the announcement from the MC, however newer teams don't always know to keep an eye/ear out for that, but I've never seen a ref or field crew come to talk a team about a foul...I've seen field crew stop an unsafe robot before it enters the field, but I've never seen an interaction during the match, and I don't think I've ever seen foul discussions/explanations other than the MC announcement and in the question box.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I make an effort during the match when I'm field resetting or refereeing to point out that an action a team (normally a human player) is doing is illegal if I notice them doing it many times in the same match.

No one wants to see fouls, especially ones that are easily avoidable and typically inconsequential to a match.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

It depends what it is. In my experience, it's rather common for a ref to quickly tell a human player "watch your foot - you keep stepping out of bounds" or "stop putting your hand through the slot in the wall" or the like. During a match, any more complex communication than that probably isn't practical - the refs aren't going to want to interfere with the match by distracting a team member with a lengthy discussion.

Hopefully, this is a sign that your team knew the rules well enough that the head ref didn't feel that this sort of discussion was necessary. :)

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

LoL

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I don't see anything preventing humans from holding a device that launches noodles.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

T21.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Your homework for tonight: Read Section 5 of the Game Manual, particularly T21, and tell me how that sort of device would be allowed under said rule.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Ya, we wanted a slingshot or an atlatl... #NoDice

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Or tethered 550 based 'copters. Just don't fly too high. (probably wouldn't be ruled safe)

I want to see a bipedal humanoid robot stack a tote. Or maybe a hexapod climb over the landfill and grab containers. I'm not sure which would be cooler.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

The launcher comes in as part of the operator console, I imagine sitting on a frame above the driver station laptop. The secondary driver picks up the launcher and it is now a handheld part of the operator console. The secondary driver walks to the corner of the alliance station, the human player loads in pool noodles, and they get launched.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Hm. I'd imagine it would have to stay physically connected to your operator console. But you can always ask the Q&A for clarification...although I think we all know what the answer will be. ;)

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

If this launcher was powered from 120V AC, it would be connected. ;)

But yeah, you are right. If someone tried this, a clarification would shut it down. :(

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I'm thinking that FIRST, in their desire to improve clarity, forgot to include a line that's usually in that rule, which specifically barred anything that was intended to give the HP an advantage.

But, if someone DID build a noodle cannon into their operator console, and it was effective... As it stands, that would be a very interesting workaround to the rules.


However... I do think that there is one way it could be ruled illegal. I would suspect that, if push came to shove, the GDC would argue that the noodle launcher was not used to relay commands to the robot, or as support for the devices that do, and thus should not be part of the Operator Console. Then you'd be bringing something into the station that didn't fit into the list of exceptions. (Trust me, they've used far more convoluted rulings in the past to rule stuff illegal that was otherwise legal.)

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I had a dream last night to resurrect our missing lil' friend Plowie...A tethered army of 10 lil' Plowies all exiting down ramps from inside our 6'-5 3/4" tall bot all pushing totes at once toward the 2 scoring zones while our Mini-Plowie Storage Bot sits in the empty hole in the middle of the Recycle Zone...We'll set those 2 bottom rows and feed, feed, feed, feed...You just stack away Alliance partners. Then those mini-plowies will clean up all our unallocated litter in the last 30 seconds by dragging those noodles home.

Of course the main bot will be an all lexan exterior and just look like a Mini-Plowie display case when not actually on the field.

Plowie you will not be missed lil' guy.:D

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Yes, they have entered the realm of teams that have inspired new rules. As has 254, 1114, and the many other teams who used cheesy vision (or the like) as per G21's ban on such. Let's not forget the long standing traction device rule (R5), a product of various 2002 designs (mainly 71's file cards).

I was also going to mention the former blockade rule (pointless this year, hence the omission), but I cannot remember which teams were "responsible" for that addition in a competition week 4 or so update (was it 2011? or 2012?).

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Given past GDC answers, it would probably be something ambiguous and weasily-worded that leaves you completely unsure as to whether it's legal or not...

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

So, the noodle cannon could have a sensor in it that tells the robot to flash a light whenever a noodle is launched. the noodle itself would have to trigger the sensor or else the refs would say that the noodle is not actually used to relay commands to the robot.

You see, it's all just a technicality.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

At some point, you're going to run into a skeptical ref, who calls over the Head Ref, who calls over the Lead Robot Inspector, who calls the FTA into the huddle. The three of them huddle, decide that you've got a device that you shouldn't have, but don't know how to rule that. They call HQ, and HQ rules. At which point, sorry, but you're done using that device.


Trust me, it ain't worth it. The last few times HQ has been called in, it hasn't ended well for the team(s) they were called on. (At least not the first time.)

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

So every year I like to make the "How can I make an air cannon useful in this game." Now I'm not advocating or saying its viable at all or that it should be done this is something I like to have fun with, but...
Does anyone see anything in the rules that says I can't use an Air Vortex Cannon to knock over opposing bins...?
Edit: I'm not talking about a potato gun I am talking about like an airzooka.
Also I just remembered that I will be posting on the Q&A and was wondering if anyone had input on the requirements of a bin set is 3 bins in the auto zone does it cap at those 3 bins?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Section 3.1.2: "With the exception of UNPROCESSED LITTER, if the actions of one ALLIANCE cause any of the other ALLIANCE’S game elements that
are in scoring position to no longer be in scoring position, the affected ALLIANCE will be credited points for the displaced game elements
at the conclusion of the MATCH."

Using an Air Vortex Cannon would presumably be considered an action.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

That rule I find questionable. I mean I understand it completely but I do not understand how scoring is going to take place. Will they snap a picture at the end of a match and do it from there? Do they actually manually go through and count? The former makes sense but is hard, the later is time consuming and if something were to fall during the counting process how is that dealt with? I would be interested in the GDC releasing the exact scoring process the field crew uses at the conclusion of a match. Also to semi bump the edit I made, does anybody know if you can have more then one bin set at the end of auto?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

What they have done in the past, and the most likely scenario: The refs will try to track live score, and then will walk out and verify their counts once everything stops moving.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

So in this situation the end of the match is defined as "The state of the field until eyes are done looking at it."
I have never had this happen and I don't really see it being a problem (considering I work at a gym with soccer fields I know the feels a ref might have) I plan on enforcing that the refs calls are final on drive team unless the rule book states that the call they made was false without any doubt. I don't want students hating someone because of the job they have that is not fair. I really hope that the field does have some sort of photo finish which dictates the final state of the match so the counting can be done without holding up feel reset.
Also I don't like the idea of a ref going about counting stacks of totes only to be ambushed by a bunch of disgruntled totes that were precariously balanced.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Team 343 takes part of the credit for that rule. We had metal omni wheels that we tested extensively for carpet damage. What we didn't test was a
another team's robot spinning their skyway wheels enough to melt the carpet. When we hit that we made quite a hole and ball of yarn.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

71's file card robot was from 2002.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I meant to say 2002, whoops. Caught me in a typo. Fixed.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Our team was joking around and saying that a "Disability" could be stated as our disability to throw pool noodles. A throwing device could be "Special equipment required due to a disability." ;)

I also believe there is a rule that says we are allowed to defend ourselves from totes. Don't remember the exact wording but I love the concept. I mean last year you couldn't defend yourself as a coach I'm glad this has changed

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

3.1.2. (and 3.1.3 for fouls) spells out how and when scores are applied:

- auto points are awarded when the timer displays 0 at the end of auto.
- coopertition points are awarded instantly on completion of the coopertition set/stack.
- teleop points (except for coopertition) are awarded when the timer displays 0 at the end of teleop unless not all elements are at rest, in which case they're awarded 5 seconds after the timer displays 0.
- fouls are issued upon rule violation.

Of course, the rules don't say what will be displayed on the scoreboard unofficially during the game.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Unfortunately this isn't always the case. I know of at least one case where a head ref explicitly told the other refs not to tell teams they would be getting disabled before the match started.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

As part of the Build Blitz Strategy session, Karthik responded to a question with probably the craziest idea I've heard this season: tie a rope around a recycle bin, connected to simple drive base after the robot is set down on the field, then drive forward in autonomous.

There's some real merit there that would easily make this the greatest (usually shot-down) idea ever: replace rope with a plastic or metal strap, and make sure it doesn't touch the recycle bin prior to the start of the match. There's a very good chance the recycle bin stays upright, and a partner can easily get it out of the strap in teleop. The strap stays hanging out the back of the robot, but it isn't getting tangled in anyone's wheels.

It easily complies with all of the rules and is the type of atypical ideas we can come up with this year.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

is there anything in the rules restricting what the human players can wear that will help them with the crates and noodles? like gloves and stuff like that?

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

T21, but last year's T22 had nearly identical wording and the GDC said via Q&A that gloves were legal.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

On the question of building a device to help throw pool noodle, the GDC has ruled on the Q&A that it is illegal. Sorry guys. :(

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Where do you see the questions and answers? I went to the site (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php) and it didn't seem like there were any questions on there yet.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Click the "Search" button. (green, lower left) There are 4 pages of questions, some with answers.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

In this case, Q2 is the question, well, in question.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Because of the size constraints this year, making a robot as wide as the feld which just tows the cans would be better than a viable strategy IMO. Denying the opposing alliance points in cans would limit them severely, to the point where, at the higher levels, the remaining two robots on your alliance could compete with their three.
Plus, you could drag all the totes near the middle near a scoring zone using almost the same mechanism.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

They announced they will be stopping the Noodle Agreement, but they are not sure how yet.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Based on today's answer to Q&A 58 the robot can be touching the objects before the start of AUTO so this isn't a concern. The makes the rope strategy even more viable.

Of course the points earned by the simpler auto activities seem low compared to other game tasks.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

Last year look at the Ref to game piece ratio, I have faith the GDC has a workaround

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

The Rule in question:

R17 At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, known as the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, that shall not exceed 30 lbs. to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT.

Blue Box:
The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not
count towards this weight limit.

For Teams attending 2-Day Events, these FABRICATED ITEMS may be used during the Robot Access Period and/or brought to
the Event, but the total weight may not exceed 30 lbs. FABRICATED ITEMS constructed during the Robot Access Period and
bagged with the ROBOT are exempt from this limit.

Blue Box:

Items exempt from this limit are:
A. the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
B. any ROBOT battery assemblies (as described in R4).

_______________________________

Just an IDEA! And a whole bunch of questions for community discussion only at this point please:

Under R17.....Could a "Community Owned and Fabricated, at a single event (that simply takes out the WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE limitation in R17), set of 2 like manipulators, 1 each available per match, to at least 1 robot on both Alliances), weighing under say 5 lbs. each, that would bolt or clamp on, & simply plug in, to many if not most of many different robots (if pre-planning were fairly easy)....Could that "community owned/built/fabricated" item be shared among many Robots during a single competition? (This would be similar to the sharing of Mini-Bots, though those were specifically allowed, and highly encouraged directly by the existing rules then).

IF ACTUALLY ALLOWED BY THE 2015 Ruleset:

All Teams who voluntarily chose to possibly participate in the later use of, would contribute parts, pcs. & time in the creation of the FABRICATED ITEMS in like 15 minutes after initial pit opening on Thursday let's say, at the event only). Pre-Event multi-team Collusion on planning & design would certainly be legal though.

Each voluntarily participating team (if it was deemed eventually legal under the rules of course), would send 1 member only, to a central pit location at the event, to help FABRICATE a like pair, donate items to the community mission, or pay less than say $3~5.00 towards their/it's creation so that "the voluntary participating community" actually ALL owns a pc. of each of the Community Owned FABRICATED MANIPULATORS (That satisfies "and/or upgrade their ROBOT." part of R17 I think we could show fairly easily. (Questions to Q&A at a later date please, after careful debate & discussion here, they would need to be formulated later).

Given that R17 has some direct limitations and exemptions (though I personally see, that it is possible to attempt to work a plan, that could be successful, in abiding by R17 - (Both Letter & Spirit of the rule). True, the plan would have to be quite, or very specific, well thought out in advance, and teams would have to add to their pre-bag Robot design to participate if they wished, and plan to possibly participate before the robot was bagged, and/or make changes once at the event (that would be very easy to do w/ simply adding 1 speed controller, a little wiring and a programming code addition, and figure out quick attachment/detachment & storage possibilities to abide by the TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION requirement).

Would that be legal IF all sections of R17 (among many other rules like the BOM, inspection, and weighing w/ the ROBOTS requirements, etc.), were met?

Thinking about a single RC Set manipulator that could very easily be added to almost any robot to help those few that can only drive straight into the Auto Zone, and others, EG: Say Q26...All 3 Robots pr'd. on a single Alliance designed to Auto Stack Totes Individually, 2 designed to Steal Step RC's, but none designed to, singularly get all 3 RC's into the Auto Zone quickly and easily. What Now? (Thrashing a solution between Q rounds isn't so easy).

Well, a simple addition of "1 of the 2" quickly added "Community Owned and Built at the event 3 RC Collectors", and flip over to your already stored code for the Tri-RC Auto, and the RC Auto Set is easily accomplished...After the match, simply return that Community owned pc.

(Oooop's, maybe 4~8 would be better, since I just hit a real snag in the plan...Those in Que, cannot add it to their Transport Config. while in Quing).

Hey a few more avail. wouldn't cost much more than 2. Or, those are the risks the voluntary community takes, and If they are all checked out, it just isn't avail. for use right now. Returning them quickly could be accomplished easily if located in Pit #1 or something like that, lets say. Upon pit re-entry you drop it off quickly, or you stop by and pick it up quickly, and hang it on your hook in your bot for transport. Installs easily on the field and plugs in.

Yes, you have to adapt it for use (on your bot), the practice day if you did not plan ahead. We already know contact info for all that will be competing in events we are competing in already. There is still plenty of time to plan. If we can determine legality of the idea.
________________________________

Lets parse R17 a bit:

At an Event (If we only make or fabricate the items at the event, in say about 15 minutes together or less (many hands makes short work), and as soon as the pits open, as a strictly voluntary community of teams, from COTS items and spare parts sitting in a box, and all teams participating threw in or donated specific items to that box of COTS and spare parts,-giving each participating team partial ownership and work product, by contributing some labor in the actual creation each, from a single pre-accepted & collaborated design plan (a BOM Addendum was created ahead of time, and a handout given to all teams in the participating community).

, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS (Notice that it say's "TEAMS," and not "EACH TEAM," , and also take that all together, "At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS,", (yes, we would be creating a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS together),not bagged per R14, known as the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, that shall not exceed 30 lbs. to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. (Said "community paid for, created, and owned items, made at the event only, and all pcs. would be brought in only during the official Load In period, would not be bagged per R14, but would also be exempt from both the WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE, and the Bagging under R14...By simply being Made at the event, and should be able to be used to.../or upgrade their ROBOT. If owned by all, then the shared pc's. should satisfy that very important word "their ROBOT)...See the following blue box below R17.:

Blue Box:
The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not
count towards this weight limit.

Anyone see any real viable arguments about the non-violation in either Word or Spirit contained in the parsing of R17 above? (Making it at the event is the key, ownership by all participating in donations of materials & labor to the items made, and in correct BOM addition(s) helps plenty).

By making the items strictly "AT THE EVENT" (IF YOU remove all the exceptions that takes away - "known as the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, that shall not exceed 30 lbs. to be used to repair and"). And...(The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event). SINCE: (Items made at an Event do not
count towards this weight limit).

________________________
And it would truly match the balance of R17: (The remaining portions of R17 after removing the exceptions would be as follows;)

R17 At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.

"Items made at the event do not count towards the 'WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE' weight limit", but the "may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event." requirement does".
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Then: (If the items are made only "At an Event", and "all pcs are brought in during initial Load In," and all voluntarily participating teams, contribute to the creation of the items in both labor & materials, and therefore, each own a pc. of "The Rock", or a portion of each item:

Then it would appear that it stands to reason, that "A Communty pr. or more, of specific multi-robot fitting, 3 RC Set Manipulator(s) created only and quickly at an event, to be shared pcs. (as long as all other rules are followed as pertains to, among others, BOM, Inspection, weighing, electrical, transport configuration, and game rules, etc.)

We would gain the advantage of helping each other, (not every team would have to build the killer 3 RC Set Manipulator, and both Alliances would stand to benefit equally every match without violating the letter or spirit of R17, by only allowing more participation by some, or all teams robots not designed initially for every single functionality during the Auto Period, to possibly work together a bit better and more often).

"At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, to be used to upgrade their ROBOT."

I'm just saying...Imagine using as a competing community R17 in that manner, to benefit each and your own teams. We aren't playing for W-L-T until the finals, we all compete against one another, but we all compete with each other also....What we do for the least of us, we all do for all the rest of us. Not all robots are designed & built to complete all functions or facets of the game...And a pusher bot that can only (IF), drive straight ahead, can only push 1 item at a time usually....A lil' help in programming, and a simple bolt or clamp on/plug in solution (and a few minutes of time), could go along way to help all teams.

I'm just saying to do it right...R17 could be shortened to mean simply if done right & sold right via the Q&A: At an Event...(voluntary participating) TEAMS...Have Access to a static set of (Community Created Owned & Loaned) FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14 (to be temporarily used by up to at least 1 robot per alliance per match), to upgrade their ROBOT.

Or,

R17 At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT.

That, if determined legal would be a kick!

(They could even possibly also be silent auctioned off, or by raffle, during the event "if prior approved of course", for proceeds going to charity purposes, and awarded to the auction or raffle winners at the end of the event, to add to their witholding allowance, if they have room, and bagged up before leaving the event for use in a suceeding event. By that time, everyone would know the design, and whether it even worked well or not!)

Or simply taken apart and returned pc.-by-pc. to each team participating if the above suggestion was ruled illegal or not agreed to for some reason!

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

I would call that a far-fetched idea.

Try, instead, a team (or six, or some other number) bringing in RAW MATERIAL (that is, anything that is COTS or not already a FABRICATED ITEM), and, at the event, forming a group that would assist any team to upgrade their robot. That's far more plausible. In fact...

With similar rules on said items, there have more than once been concerted efforts to literally (quite literally) build a robot for a team that showed up without their own robot.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

We do that already, and it is always encouraged to help those not ready yet, to get ready. My question was...Is it legal? Does that violate the word or the spirit of Rule R17? (If not, anything can be done). FIRST FRC is quite far fetched...(If you are on the outside looking in). Building a 2 parallel wheeled personal transport...Or, providing safe drinking water for millions in the world...Hugely Farfetched. Ri3D is quite farfetched, when you think about it, given some teams aren't even ready, after 6 weeks time.

Thinking outside the box (as long as it is legal by the rules), with nearly 5 more weeks still to go, and all the resources (a design idea, raw materials, contact info, etc., and a workable idea & plan, is not that farfetched at all). It is what FIRST Robotics is.

An RC Set- 8 points, is worth more points than either a Robot Set-4 points, or a Tote Set-6 points, in Auto (but not the Tote Stack-20 points of course). Why not make sure the least of us, and the most of us, can all get it (there will be many Q matchups of that other bit too, 3 great robots, that cannot all get everything they wish to, all accomplished in just the short 15 seconds, they may just often, all be competing for the same "on field jobs" as built too, and find they just might also sometimes need the pc.).

A very small team investment (time/materials/each shared as insurance), if within the rules of the game of course, could be found very lucrative faced w/ either situation....Never mind a quick improvement of the can't do much in Auto, Bots there always are. Helping them do more helps all of us together this year.

It also makes the Tote Stack, a whole lot easier to accomplish, if all 3 RC's are cleared away first (Immediately),into the auto zone (and all in an upright position is a pure bonus), making that task and others much easier. And it would clear the way for the shelf wars, to also be accomplished with just 3 robots.

Farfetched idea maybe, game strategy, oh yes. (Contacting just 40 other teams via e-mail, fairly easy, that info is avail.! Managing a 15 minute build w/ many hands, and the matl's & plans...How hard can that be, as at Thursday events, practice does not even start until Noon this year). Get in inspection line together as soon as shared manipulators are completed, hand them to the next robot in line, and the next....While we build, their BOMS are updated by other team members.....Everyone has at least 1 team member that they can spare for 15 minutes in the morning on Thursday to help build the pcs.). Adding 1 speed controller to each participating robot and minor wiring, and a breaker, and figuring how to mount it before bagging or that morning, 2 holes drilled 2 bolts and wingnuts, plug it in, add a bit of code (something already being talked about elsewhere on CD of building a straight drive "code library in all formats used," for any usual AUTO non-movers to make the Robot Set, and helping them implement it). The RoboRIO is a different creature right? You can choose from multiple Auto code choices?
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Farfetched or not...Did you agree that it may just be "within the rule" even if farfetched, or that anything said was absolutely in violation of R17 and would never fly? I was just parsing the Rule...I didn't find anything that violates it if done there, and properly done.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

What are your thoughts the non being able to bring in spare parts and add them to the communism pile where if you have spare gear that you don't really need you can donate it to a shared pool?
Lets not get into details of what happens after the competition just the donation part please.

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

"the communism pile"...That made me actually laugh. Maybe it was because I was laughing, that I was not quite able to figure out exactly what you meant?

Please explain another way? (Do you mean creating a pile at an event of all of each teams unneeded old stuff or junk, allowing teams to sift through, and take what is wanted, and leave the rest?)

I would think that would be very troublesome dealing with what is leftover at the event sites, yes. So, if not allowed, I fully understand that, and have stayed a few times to help pack up the field and ship it, those sites must be cleared out completely, by a certain hour. Who would deal w/ the mess left over?

Simply find a rookie or young team(s) locally, and donate away. Most Community Colleges or for that matter any "maker space" would be glad to get the donations. Chances are you would not get many "No, we don't want that stuff" answers). Probably a lot of "TY so much!"

Re: Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed
 

The logistics of having a regulated way for teams to drop things off and take stuff without abusing it are insane and absurd and take a lot more thought then just I have currently in my pocket. Yeah though rough idea is maybe not even on site but having a location where teams can donate parts for other teams to use and have access to. It happens so often when I see we cut something and you know its enough material to be useful its just we have a surplus of supply and a lack of space. Share the blessings yo! I guess this could be made a separate thread completely. Teams all pitch in money rent out a storage unit and keep spare parts organized there for anyone to use.