A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Change the rules to allow capture the flag.

Teams start with three recycling bins on each side, filled with their alliance color pool noodle. The object of the game is to get the opposing alliances noodles into your side. Teammates can use the totes to build strategic defense barriers, or something. I'm still refining the idea and open to input. I feel like if we can find a way to change the game by only adjusting the rules and not the KOP, it might have some bearing on FIRST. I'm sure they have noticed that the response to RR is a bit...subpar.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Remember, though, that the response to Aerial Assist wasn't exactly glowing on Day 1.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Not at all likely to have any effect. And so far I'm seeing reasonable reactions to the game, mostly. We need to let it sink in.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

This is a really good idea, I actually really really like it. Enough for me to create an account on chief delphi. This introduces more strategy to the game and reintroduces the competition element (which in turn makes the game more interesting for spectators). The only question I have is... what will you use the bins for?

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Like I said, still doing the theorycrafting! What would you use them for?

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Cool idea, but look, FIRST isn't going to change the entire field.

I agree that this idea would be amazing and fantastic. There's just no going back at this point.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

MR. KAMEN! TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

while i dont exactly like this years idea (almost no interaction from the other team? that sounds boring!) he has a valid point. they announced this worldwide today, had the rules planned a while back, did all this work just to change almost everything within a week, either taking away a week of building or shifting everything off by a week (ruining travel plans AND booked venues) this sadly wont happen.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

I'm actually more excited for Recycle Rush than I was for Aerial Assist last year. Last year's kickoff made the game seem like it was going to be fairly flat and boring to me(at least until I dove into the rules and got to know its nuances).

Recycle Rush has multiple game pieces to manipulate, fewer sizing restrictions to encourage creative design, coopertition points, and an interesting qualifications "bonus coopertition" strategy in the form of the Noodle Agreement. It has the possibility of human players scoring game pieces (feeding noodles directly into recycling bins) and the potential to see towering stacks built rapidly by high level alliances. I feel this game has more eye candy and pizzazz to a casual spectator than Aerial Assist did, even though it may seem like less of a direct competition. While truss shots and high goals were cool to watch, I think with pool noodles flying, stacks looming above the referees, and recycling bins teetering on top that Recycle Rush will be a great game to watch!

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

The new Constant for FRC is change. In the past 3 years we have seen big changes. They have gotten larger as time has progressed. While I don't enjoy seeing where FRC is going at this point I rely on the FACT this is first time ever we have played a game like this. Anyone who doesn't like this game needs to get over that or your season won't be enjoyable. Its too late to change the game. I promise you that FIRST probably won't stick with this kind of game. 2014 was a new kind of game so is 2015, and 2016 could be a new type of game, the same kind of game, or and old type of game. The old type of game is what we all seem to call "normal". There isn't a normal game in FRC anymore and that I like.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

I like this game idea, especially in the fast-growing FRC community. To get people sucked into FIRST can be tricky, and normally we have cool robots to back us up. Unfortunately, and this is extremely opinionated, but I don't think stacking crates and recycling is cool. And I know this is very early on, but there isn't a huge 'wow' factor yet. The past 4 years, the game animation/release has always had me at "wow, what? how are we going to do that?" and I can't say the same for this year

The audience, I think, will be bored with this game. Capture the flag, on the other hand, will be more interesting to watch, IMHO.

All that being said, it is indeed to late to change the game. I wish they would, and would enjoy if they did, but they wont, so we have to make the most of this game.

I guess we can think of it as another challenge. How do we make this game more flashy and wow for the audience?

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

This game does seem to be more focused on the building rather than the playing when compared to previous years. Some of the ideas we came up with today were pretty ridiculous (no size constraints!) and would have been quite a spectacle to see on a field had we gone with them.

I can see that it will likely be less fun to play and to watch, but I'm definitely seeing that it's more fun to design around, program, and build.

Maybe well see some fighting for the center bins and totes in higher level play? That ought to spice things up a bit.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Though this year it will probably be pretty difficult to get people interested in the programs, FIRST is known for always bringing new stuff to the table. I think it will be interesting to see how teams work in this totally different game. I say give it some time, it will probably grow on us.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Ironically the complaint last year was about all the violence in Aerial Assist.Now everyone is unhappy because there is absolutely no violence in this one.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Complaints last year were from the "vocal minority" of some CD users who had some bad matches.

I really don't understand this game. How could they look at this game, named after recycling and themed around trash and then say, "Yes, kids will love this!" Did they really expect a positive response when they told us we couldn't touch opponents, or we don't win or lose matches?

Also, this game isn't going to work the way they think it will. The robots that win aren't going to be even close to 28" x 38" or some normal size.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Will the weight rules change this at all? 120 pounds would get rather thin when distributed over that larger area, especially if the team decides to use bumpers.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Yes, but can you say sending the baby out with the bathwater? FIRST loves to compare itself to pro sports. In Pro football, there's a lot of violence, and a fair amount of concussions and people are very vocal about it, but you don't see the NFL turning into a ledaerboard where every team just tries to score as many touchdowns as possible.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

...which is why the size change is so emphasized. FIRST seems completely okay with this. You're allowed to literally assemble your robot on the field (within reason) using power tools and alignment devices, two things that have been strictly prohibited in recent years.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

I have a really simple way, have there be a winner of each match, and work co-op points like 2012. The flexibility in dimensions and no defense is going to foster some crazy robots this year. But, matches still won't be exciting if you're not competing. Plus, you get things like the noddle agreement if you're not trying to beat the other alliance.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

It wasn't a vocal minority. At least half the people I talked to hated that game. They didn't like the idea that there was a single game piece that encouraged teams to pass idle moments away by playing defense and encouraged heavy referee intervention.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Okay, so AA wasn't the best game that ever happened, but nobody could deny that Einstein (and most eliminations) were very exciting to watch.

I remember watching Archimedes and seeing 1114, 2056, and 4334 triple balancing against 67's alliance. The entire crowd watching the field went absolutely crazy. Because there's no winner/loser this year (up until the finals match), there simply won't be this excitement of not knowing who is going to win.

What is weird to me is that every team that isn't the event winner cannot say that they "won" any matches.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

FIRST Robotics Competition, now with less Competition.


I think this game would've been fine with the usual mode of organizing matches, maybe the same way as 2012? This game really isn't that bad, after looking over the strategy and game organization I kind of almost like it a lot actually. Not sure about the change in tournament structure though.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

I learned the hard way last year that when FIRST releases games they mean what they say. There won't be any fundamental reworking of this game, and we don't do ourselves a favor by imagining that we can convince them our ideas are better. Probably best to drop it.

I was thoroughly wrong about a lot of things this year, too. I thought that FIRST wanted FRC to be more like a sport, but Recycle Rush proves that I was way off base. I don't think the game will prove to be boring for either teams to build and play, or for audiences to watch, and I don't think the GDC are stupid, but this game is requiring a large shift in my expectations and way of thinking.

Regarding the sizes of robots, I am super curious as to what might happen. Will we see something of the caliber of 71 from 2002? Or 469 from 2010? I'd love to know what Magnets is predicting, but I doubt he will say yet.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

If nothing else this will be a reallyeasy game to fix come IRI.
Just have teams make their stacks on the other side of the field. You'll get all the interaction you can stand. But you'll also get a really good idea why people weren't so crazy about the 2003 and that's without the King of the Hill ramp element.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Let's get this in motion. http://www.usfirst.org/contactform

Contact whoever you can, spread the word, contact other teams. This game will stunt the growth of FRC for next year, and it will make it nearly impossible for rookie teams to grow. If FIRST would like to be treated as a sport, then they must make challenges that are as exciting as sports. That includes defense between teams and also having a winner for each match.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

A small note to the people who are complaining about win/lose and match excitement, if you're not getting excited about building a robot to meet a challenge set in front of you- REGARDLESS of being better than others- then what are you doing?

The matches will be as exciting as people choose to make them. Design an exciting robot with a concept that will surprise others, and the matches are suddenly more exciting to watch.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Many students (and mentors) are in FRC for reasons beyond just designing and building a robot. (I'm one of those.) The sports angle is intended to attract students who may not be immediately focused on design and build. Don't lose sight of that broader reach. FIRST has a truly unique model that makes project based learning exciting.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Please please please let this happen. This game would be so much more interesting strategically if FIRST came to their senses and made some major changes before people had committed too much to a design and strategy.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

What this guy said. How about those of us who have very little role in build season, and who become major players on the team once the competitions start? This game is designed such that build season will be absolutely fascinating; unfortunately, it seems to me that competitions will be less exciting than they have in past years. There just isn't the same fast-paced action.

That said, I guess we may have to wait and see.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

This is true. Aside from the rulings last year, Aerial assist became my favorite game of my four years. It felt balanced, had close outcomes, and had good defense and offense.
This game I think is getting a lot of thumbs downs to the lack of defense. I was shocked yesterday, but am warming up to the game already. The best defense is a good offense. Only one thing will ensure placement at the end of quals. High scores.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

They wouldn't necessarily need to change the field. Teams would be required to build a robot that could traverse the step.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

I definitely agree with this. We might see something like 71 a while back, or 469 in 2010 - something completely out of the box, and close to game-breaking. It's even possible that at the very high levels of competition, the meta-game will turn into 'who can put the craziest thing together in 60 seconds.' While I'd prefer for that not to happen, it's possible.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

I think many of us need to take a step back and really think about the game, without letting any bias against it get in our way.

FRC is FIRST Robotics Competition, which already sets it apart from your average sport because there is no right or wrong way of doing most anything in the challenge. Robotics is all about thinking outside of the box and looking at issues from a different angle, so why would we only be faced with one kind of challenge?

Recycle Rush is not a contact sport, but neither is a race. Just because there is not inter-alliance combat doesn't mean the game is automatically condemned to not be exciting. Nor does it mean that it won't feel like a sport. It will have more in common with a relay race or an obstacle course, though, because it's about teams working together in a race against the clock.

Even though rounds will not have winners, at the end of the day, teams still advance. Individual games may not record your win/loss, but you need to do as well as you can to rank high in the competition. Honestly, the only difference here is that a loss will not cripple a decent team, because their score is based on all games, not the results of all games.

Then you have the game itself. After spending 6 weeks trying to figure out how you'll attack this challenge, it's safe to say a lot of interesting strategies will appear. Robots will literally come in all shapes and sizes, and you'll see them being assembled rapidly on the field, a more exciting display than just setting the bots out as in past years. Robots will speedily try to stack the totes and the bins, sometimes balancing huge towers and sometimes watching those towers fall. The audience will be on the tip of their seats when the tower next to the flimsy noodle bot wobbles, and screams, shouts, and cheers will fill the room when it zooms out in the nick of time. The strain between opposing alliances in a Noodle Agreement Russian Roulette will be nothing but intense, and as soon as one alliance breaks, noodles will fly, totes will tumble and containers will crash.

Then, atop this all, remember again that this is a Robotics Competition, and this game is having us build robots with much farther reaching consequences than years past. These robots will actually have a use in industry, and that's what FIRST is all about: solidifying the futures for students with interests in science and technology, and providing exposure to those who may develop them.

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

An easy way to make it a good spectator sport is to have the rankings be point based, but have wins and losses announced. They would be useless to the teams, but to the people in the stands, it will be like "YEAH! WE WON!."

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

Another easy change I think would make the game a little bit more spectator friendly is to allow robots to throw totes over the step. Get a little bit of defense and offense going on. They did remind you to build your robot to be able to withstand large falling object, right? ;)

Re: A simple and easy way to make RR the best game yet...
 

They didn't design field personnel to withstand large falling objects.

It's fun to take out the trash
 

Most of the season is spent building, not playing the game. My team is very excited by this build season and I think we will be excited to play this game too. Rush is a race against the clock and the other team. Robots will want to clear out the landfill area and get to that mid-field step before the other alliance beats them to it. That will be exciting.

The autonomous period is very compared to other seasons. A lot can be done. Teams should write multiple autonomous programs and then choose which one to run depending on who is on your alliance. (For instance, pick up one crate or two or move the recycling bin)