Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

With a limited number of containers on the field taking control of the containers on the step may be important. One way to ensure control of these containers would be using autonomous mode to grab the containers. However there is a large amount of totes in the landfill making it so the robot would have to extend pretty far to get the containers. What are your thoughts on the importance of controlling the extra containers and on how to go about getting to the containers.

Going off on a tangent, this is one of few parts of the game where there is inter alliance competition as both teams have access to these containers and will have to beat the other alliance to the containers.

Personally I see this as a possibly over looked part of this game.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

I guarantee it's not being overlooked.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

^^^

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

A strategy that guarantees the win when max possible points by both alliances are scored will never be overlooked. The GDC made an odd number of recycling cans on the field for a reason.

That said, it's only going to really matter come late playoff rounds at strong competitions. Few alliances will have the firepower to worry about running out of a game piece.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Isn't 10 even?

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Yep. Three in each staging zone for the alliances, and four on the step. I could have sworn it was three on the step myself though... rules haven't all sunk in ;)

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Yes.

Source

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

I was thinking of the most a single alliance can possess, completely forgot the other alliance has 3 when posting that total. :rolleyes:

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

The two containers in the middle would not be difficult to reach because there is a gap in the totes in the land fill so you could get to those easily and then wait until the landfill is cleared out to get the other two.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Unless some teams develop non wheel robots that can stack a tote every 2 seconds from anywhere on the field ,i don't think it will matter that much. I think teams will target stacking the recycling bins and autonomous because both are worth a lot more.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

well knowing there is no starting configuration you could start with your robot fully extended with two arms, grabbing at the containers and have it lined up perfectly so that when auto start you grab them spin drop them in the zone then grab the other two

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Except for that G7-C states "When placed on the FIELD for a MATCH, each ROBOT must be: completely outside of their AUTO ZONE and LANDFILL ZONE."

This would include any arms or appendages that are reaching over into the landfill zone.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

The definition of each zone in the glossary does not include a vertical extension of the boundaries. Wondering if this implies that hanging over the boundary is OK as long as you aren't in contact with the floor or the game designers overlooked it. Maybe this needs some clarification.

Added thought - the zones are referred to as areas and not volumes. That would be another indication to me that the rule refers to contact with the marked area by a part of the robot.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

There is an exact diagram in the manual that shows hanging over the step is completely ok, so long as you are not in contact with the other game pieces or carpet, I believe.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

If you are referencing figure 3-8, in <G18>, that is not related to Auton, but interaction with the step.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

As noted, this is mostly going to matter to top ranked teams in Elims. Especially at MSC and Champs. The question you have to ask yourself is if you think a #1 or #2 seed is capable of doing more than three 5-6 tote + container stacks. If they are, then you're starving them for points if you can control all 4 of the shared containers.

Also, picking the containers up isn't actually necessary for a denial strategy to work. You just have to get them onto your side of the field. Once they're beyond the step, they're off limits. I wouldn't be surprised to see a specialized auton and mechanism to swipe the two middle containers in autonomous mode and count on winning the race for one of the two outside containers.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Presume 3 containers scored atop a stack of 5, each with a piece of litter.

Per stack, that's worth:
5 totes x 2 points ea. -- 10 pts.
5 levels x 4 points / level -- 20 pts.
1 litter x 6 points -- 6 pts.
36 pts.

3 stacks x 36 pts. per stack = 108 points.

Ignoring the additional time required, for better or for worse, presume that 2 containers are taken from the step at some point during the match and the number of totes consumed remains unchanged.

Per stack:
3 totes x 2 points ea. -- 6 pts.
3 levels x 4 points / level -- 12 pts.
1 litter x 6 points -- 6 pts.
24 pts. per stack.

5 stacks x 24 pts. per stack = 120 points.

In many instances, it'll be more efficient for alliances to form more shorter stacks than a few taller ones if containers can be obtained and scored on those stacks. It's easier to make shorter tote stacks and easier to place containers on shorter stacks, as well.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

keep in mind that starving your opponents of points is of little use especially if you are wasting your own scoring time doing it.
If you can acquire the containers from the step AND score them then you have a winning strategy in my humble opinion.

So if you are aligned with 2 great stackers that can get 3 full stacks and have time left then acquiring the step containers is going to be very valuable.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

This isn't what they are asking about. In 2014 zone boundaries were specifically described as the infinite plane extending upwards from the edge of each marked area on the carpet. This year's game manual says nothing about the 3rd dimension of field zones. OP's question is whether or not the air above the landfill/autozone is included as part of each respective zone, or if only the actual carpet is the real zone.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Precisely my question. Definitely needs clarification, but I believe all the indicators are point toward being able to extend over the landfill and auto zones at the beginning of the game.

1. Robots have no limits on x and y dimensions which would make no sense if you can't stretch over those zones.
2. The rules talk about the zone area and not the zone volume.
3. No mention of an imaginary vertical plane which is language used in previous games.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Might be a very important question to ask Q and A Wednesday...who is game to do it?

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

I agree with you that you can go over, but that's only useful for grabbing the bins at the beginning. It's not like you're going to run an effective defense game with a bar extending 3 feet away from your bot over the step.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Since nobody has said it yet:

A container set in autonomous mode states: "A CONTAINER SET exists if any three (3) RECYCLING CONTAINERS are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO."

Emphasis mine.

Therefore, it seems you could have 6 containers in your auto zone at the end of auto, you could have 2 container sets.

Max Score Calculations +8.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

I'm looking forward to watching an autonomous container-tug-of-war battle...

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

The wording is confusing, but a Container Set either exists or it doesn't - meaning that the score can't be applied more than once. You don't get one for every set of 3.

WARNING - Taking manual lawyering too far below ~~~~
If you did get points for every set that exists, then you get a set for every combination of RCs since there is no requirement for exclusivity. Your points would be the combination where "n" is the number in the zone and "r" is 3. So 6 containers would actually be worth 20*8=160 points.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinator...alculator.html
~~~~

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Rule G7 seems to be very clear that you can't do this.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

I believe that because G18 is in the "General Rules" of the game that the rule could apply to Autonomous. However, I understand that the rule is aimed at Teleop because the likelihood of the rule being violated during Autonomous is very low. I do not doubt that the refs will gladly give out the penalty because a team would need to pre-program their robots to violate the rule.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

Rule G7 just says you can't be in either zone when placed on the field before the match has started. I'd say autonomous counts as part of the match.

Re: Acquiring containers from step during autonomous
 

It's not. If the auto/landfill zones are not the infinite upwards plane then you can start with your robot extended into any legal game area as long as the ground supporting it is not in an illegal zone.

G18 applies at all times during the game, it's not directed at auto or teleop, it's both.