New numbering rules?
 

R2 lays out the new numbering rules, and altough they only added a small section, it is awfully specific:
It's all pretty normal, but the limits on the color of the numbers seems rather picky. Why not specify that the numbers must be of a reasonably high contrast, or easy to read? Perhaps it's becaue i was hoping to be able to do backlit numbers in waterjetted aluminum, but i'm dissapointed by how specific it is.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

The numbers rules likely strict so that there isn't any confusion an what is high-contrast.


Also backlit leds could fail.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

As far as I can tell, it's not illegal to have backlit numbers in waterjetted aluminum, as long as you also have black numbers against a white background.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Do both. That way when you run out of time to do the waterjet numbers you still are legal. And if by some FIRST Build Miracle you can do both, nobody will see / care about the plain numbers. (Well the inspectors will, but your tumultuous fans won't care.)

Re: New numbering rules?
 

I hope all teams follow the new rules, so we can tell which robot belongs to what team.

Identifying robots on the field is one place where creativity and individuality isn't very helpful.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

The issue of contrast could easily be interpreted as part of R2-B, as numbering would have to be easily visible in order to be "unambiguous." And, if done properly, backlit numbers could easily be made visible regardless of if they are actually lit.

I figured this would be the final solution, as im sure my whining will have no influence on upcoming rule revisions :D but I still find it dissappointing, and a little odd that such a specific rule would be placed in an otherwise very flexible game.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

It's a big robot. They are small numbers. Having two sets, one in black and white and another in your dancing disco LED lights isn't against the rule.

In prior years, you needed to paint the bumpers. This year, no bumpers but you still need the numbers. Think of the 100's of teams that can't do back-lighted colored numbers. So the min cost effort is black on white that was imposed by FIRST. Think black marker on an index card.

With your resources think of the fund raiser for next year (or maybe this year!!!!) "We'll do your Robot number for $10 per digit per sign!!!!" and away you go.

On the other hand when I look across the 4000 teams building a robot, your team's biggest issue is the back light. I'm humbled that you have solved, designed and are ready to build a robot and have extra, nay, vast amounts of extra energy and build time to move a lighted team number to the top of your build list.

I've added your team to my personal "robots to watch" list, can't wait to see how you make out. :rolleyes:

Re: New numbering rules?
 

The color and background restrictions are still a little obnoxious, but no more obnoxious than the restrictions on bumper numbers and infinitely easier to implement. All you need to get compliant is a printer, two sheets of paper, (print two to a page) and some tape, which beats the pants off of any process to get numbers on the bumpers. I've used most of them, from silver sharpies to paint to sewn-on white fabric, and it is VERY hard to get good-looking results.

As for 4901? We'll take the files for our bumper number from last year, flip the colors from white to black, add it to our vinyl stickers with the sponsor logos, and save ourselves at least a couple nights of work. :)

Re: New numbering rules?
 

As a graphic designer R2 kills my dreams.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

There are still more than 10,000 square inches of space on your robot to fill with your wonderful graphic design. Just make the numbers so us blind old folks can read them, please?

Re: New numbering rules?
 

I'm thinking black acrylic inlaid in white acrylic would look neat.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

This. I would also suggest the following test:

If you (Edit: or, preferably, your grandparents) cannot read your robot's numbers from 50 yards out (150 ft), give or take a bit, then you may want to reconsider font, size, or stroke. Why 50 yards? That would be some of the farther scouts who are wishing they'd brought binoculars to read your numbers.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Yeah...But "black light" is really a purple color to the human eye. LOL.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

It is why I have only scouted once...Reading those numbers from way up in the nosebleeds is so very difficult to say the least....And all that data feeds back to the robot team # firstly. (I am nearsighted, I'll run that thread through the needle for you in a flash & read off those tiny numbers on a capacitor or chip without the magnifying glass (but you have to tell me what robot I'm scouting this round, and you better say the number real clearly, then find my golf ball also please). Getting old is hard.:D

Re: New numbering rules?
 

This is one of the times that having a single (or generally low) digit team number comes in handy! My suggestion was to make our entire robot into a giant 4. :p

Re: New numbering rules?
 

My point is that the rule is oddly specific. I get that the specificity is for the sake of simplicity, and of course im not wasting time developing light stuff when there's much more important work to do. Im not sure how you're planning to do lights but if it's taking vast amounts of time and energy during build season, you're doing it wrong. If you'd like to look, my base code is already available on CD, and it was before kickoff. I work with arduino as a hobby, not because i think it is the most essential part of the robot, and when one of my hobbies just so happened to cross with robotics, i decided to take advantage of the opportunity.

ON A LIGHTER NOTE:
Oh yes, the lights we're using are the old AM2640s, so if anything we may have an issue with blinding people :ahh: But, if we were to do backlit designs, they would be done using frosted lexan so it'd be easier to read. (i know the feeling, theres a reason i stick to pit scouting lol)

Re: New numbering rules?
 

I'm a little disappointed too. I'm glad they do give us the freedom of font, however it would be nice to be able to display your number in another way that isn't a white placard that looks like a marathon number. I don't think it allows you to even have your own color border to create contrast, which is interesting considering the bumper rules only said you must have a white outline, rather than fully solid white numbers.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Since we have the freedom of font choice, I'm sure there will be plenty of unreadable black-on-white team numbers.

Oh well.

(the lame Mr. Forbes solution would be to have FIRST provide preprinted team number placards at the events, just like at marathons)

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Many teams couldn't figure out in recent years, even with the bumpers, how to make numbers legible, and that was when I was right next to them on the field. I'm fully expecting the numbering to be a major headache again this year with them being hidden among a boatload of logos, lights, and other junk. I believe that a big part of ref problems entering fouls and such were trying to figure out what the heck the number was to do so for tracking.

I was hoping that a standard, "This is the font you ARE going to use," was included. I got half my wish by them having to be black on a white background. Just giving the height/stroke doesn't really work since teams don't seem to own measuring instruments to make sure they meet the rule. Handing out the marathon numbers would be an improvement....

Re: New numbering rules?
 

I do a fair amount of automotive racing and this is often an issue in those events as well. Many people want fancy/stylish/funny/whatever numbers and class letters on their cars so they can be unique. Unfortunately, when a car is flying by at 100+ MPH, those shiny yellow numbers are real hard to read on a white car... So many groups have gotten very strict over the years about what number styles and color combinations are acceptable.

While our robots aren't going 100 MPH, there is still a lot of commotion on the field and those fancy-pants numbers can be difficult to spot. And what one person (an inspector) may think is easily visible, a ref or other volunteer may find unreadable. Standardized black letters on a white background are without a doubt very readable and save inspectors from having to make a judgement call about readability. Save the creativity for team logos, shirts, driver stations, and other parts of the robot.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

FIRST can't, won't and didn't do this because some teams may not have access to some fonts. Not every team has access to word, or may have very limited computer access in general, and this gives teams the freedom to write the words on a piece of printer paper at the last second when they forgot the numbers.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Its probably not a coincidence that the numbers must be 3.5" with one inch border white space, which comes to 5.5" which when doubled comes to 11" and fits nicely on a 1/2 page of standard (US) letter paper.

Note that if you have four pit placards from prior regionals stashed away, these can be used, look great and satisfy the bumper number rules-- they come with FRC logos and big black numbers on white background on a sturdy card.

I'm guessing the rules are written such that when any team that arrives with 'questionable' numbers/colors (or missing ones), the LRI can use his printer (or the FMS setup's printer) to print bumper numbers for the team, and the team/mentor can't complain that the LRI is being unreasonable in asking them to do too much 'work' to fix the problem. Inspector provides the printed numbers (maybe even on card stock) and all you need to do is find some tape and three or four places to tape them to on your bot.

I'm sure most inspectors/LRIs would rather deal with more consequential issues with teams than bumpers, bumper colors/covers, bumper zones, bumper number quality, frame perimeters, and such. Seems like the rules have largely accomplished that this year. I for one am happy about that.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

How are the new number rules any more specific than the old ones?

2014:
2015:
In both cases, height, stroke width, and positioning are defined. The only addition is the surrounded by white portion, which wasn't applicable when they were mounted on bumpers. So instead of standard size and colored background from the bumpers, they specify something new.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Also killing 148's dreams.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Someone should ask for a change in the Q/A. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the rule because of it.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

On what basis? The GDC is not known for robot rule changes except to clarify or to address a technical issue in their regulations.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Your probably right. I still say ask it. You will never get anything you want unless you first ask.

Re: New numbering rules?
 

Come up with an awesome design that has makes this plain black and white rectangle come to life. Accept the challenge!

Re: New numbering rules?
 

This kid is creative. Go you!!!

Re: New numbering rules?
 

No need for Word. That driver station computer that they must use to operate the robot when at the event probably has WordPad or at worst, Notepad. Basic fonts that are on every Windows installation and are used by the system itself could be used.

Not being argumentative. Just pointing that there are other apps that are going to be on at least one machine they must have in their possession. Now a printer may possibly be an issue...but I'm also pretty sure a library (or UPS Store,FedEx Store) are around as well.

Consider it an engineering challenge for teams to show up at an event with a robot that has numbers that actually conform to what is in the rule book. They are not now, nor have been in the last 3 years I've been involved with running the field at FIRST events, onerous to implement....but you'd think so with how many bots show up non-conforming. Sorta like how many are building bumpers on that Thursday.