Chief Delphi - TNA Blacklist

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Re: TNA Blacklist

Yes. My big thing against this is that:
1. If you are willing to partake in the agreement, you should know that it is a RISK and you should be mature enough to face the consequences of your actions - in placing a 50 point differential opportunity on the trust of an opposing alliance.
2. That you would also be mature enough to know that slanderous activity is not the solution. That is 100% not GP, hands down. Cannot defend that. Leave scouting this to INDIVIDUAL teams - if they really are even worried about trusting their enemies. I wouldn't be.

Definitions:
Opposing:
differing from or in conflict with each other.

By the sound of it, would mean you should not be spending efforts trying to agree with them.
Never settle. Reach for the upper hand. You can get more points not doing TNA than you can by doing it. --- Look into this if you don't believe me.

As Syndrome says in The Incredibles, "When everyone's super,... no one will be."

If everyone gets 40 additional points per match, doesn't really help, does it. I know that will not happen, but I'd argue that TNA is the poor man's way of balancing power from the more powerful teams (who, by the way, will hands down decline TNA every time and get the points themselves) by playing... Offensively. Who would have though it would be that way... guess this game really is competitive.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1422946)

By the sound of it, would mean you should not be spending efforts trying to agree with them.
Never settle. Reach for the upper hand. You can get more points not doing TNA than you can by doing it. --- Look into this if you don't believe me.

As Syndrome says in The Incredibles, "When everyone's super,... no one will be."

If everyone gets 40 additional points per match, doesn't really help, does it. I know that will not happen, but I'd argue that TNA is the poor man's way of balancing power from the more powerful teams (who, by the way, will hands down decline TNA every time and get the points themselves) by playing... Offensively. Who would have though it would be that way... guess this game really is competitive.

Although you can get more points with the noodles than without TNA, the time spent doing it is probably not beneficial than just doing TNA and getting points other wise. If you were to spend time putting noodles into your recycling containers, it would only net you a 2 points bonus compared to if you just did TNA. If the rule stays, I'm very confident the top teams will be doing TNA most of the time since they can spend time doing more efficient scoring.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1422946)

you should know that it is a RISK and you should be mature enough to face the consequences of your actions - in placing a 50 point differential opportunity on the trust of an opposing alliance.

I agree, it is a risk that you have to keep in mind. That's what the list would hopefully help you minimize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1422946)

2. That you would also be mature enough to know that slanderous activity is not the solution. That is 100% not GP, hands down. Cannot defend that.

And I disagree that it's slanderous. I don't see it any different than scouting and sharing that info (which people do all the time).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1422946)

Never settle. Reach for the upper hand. You can get more points not doing TNA than you can by doing it. --- Look into this if you don't believe me.

I know you can get more points by not doing TNA, but I doubt you will average more points if you don't do TNA. And the average is what matters.

Re: TNA Blacklist

I didn't see anything about making a blacklist for teams that didn't honor the coop bridge in 2012...what changed now?

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 1422951)

If the rule stays, I'm very confident the top teams will be doing TNA most of the time since they can spend time doing more efficient scoring.

You are wise.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 1422951)

This game isn't solely about how many points you get though. To win competitions, your... competition has to score less than you. By disagreeing to TNA you can force the opposing alliance to HAVE to get all points by playing offensively. If you know you can outscore again and again with a strategy that can put up 40 points in noodles every time without the TNA, you kind of shut down the opposing alliance. I argue that TNA will be seen more in matches where you have say 4 or 5 push bots - if that even happens - and you know it'll be low scoring, where you need a boost in points.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by excel2474 (Post 1422956)

And I disagree that it's slanderous. I don't see it any different than scouting and sharing that info (which people do all the time).

It is slanderous because in normal scouting, you are sharing robot performance. You are now trying to call into question a team's character and whether or not they choose to hold their word.

I'm not saying that people should be lying outright but this isn't something that needs to be made public to everyone with an internet connection. Keep it in your team scouting and choose not to pick somebody because they "lied" but let's say the most dominant offensive robot is that team that "lied" in your situation, you won't accept them if they pick you or vice versa because they "broke word"?

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by excel2474 (Post 1422956)

And I disagree that it's slanderous. I don't see it any different than scouting and sharing that info (which people do all the time).

Scouting shows areas of strengths and weaknesses.
This...
Blacklist: a list of people or products viewed with suspicion or disapproval.
Not so much the strengths. I won't debate this with you any more.

Re: TNA Blacklist

I am in favor of a rule change to disincentivize noodle accords. If there is none, however, I am not in favor of a black list.

One thing pasta pledge ponderers may not have considered is that not all instances of broken promises will be intentional. There are times when spaghetti covenants will be broken accidentally, and as long as that is a possibility, I don't think anyone should publicly decry teams for dishonesty. Mistakes happen. The problem is that a black list necessarily implies dishonorable intentions. A lack of follow-through on the field may be a sign of less competence, but it doesn't make a team worthy of public scorn. It would be rare to know without any doubt that a team purposely pulled a dirty trick. I'll put it another way: I'd prefer the FRC community to give a shady team the benefit of the doubt than to hurt the reputation of a team who may not have behaved dishonorably.

I understand that the noodle agreement is a valid coopertition strategy according to the current game manual, but it detracts from the focus on engineering a robot to perform tasks that meet the game's challenges. Being able to engineer a robot should be far more valuable, points-wise, than something that requires no effort beyond weighing the reliability of another alliance. I'm hoping that the discussions of pasta pacts and blacklists are both rendered needless by a scoring change.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1422913)

This is your choice to not participate in the agreement, and while your own team can have its own morals (of course), just make sure you understand the ramifications this has for every other team on the field.

Teams in this game do not operate in a vacuum. This game is different, Frank did not lie, and almost all actions on the field are highly cooperative. Whatever match score your alliance ends up with, all three teams on that alliance have to live with it. In the case of TNA, all six teams on the field have to live with it.

A key point to FRC is gracious professionalism. What goes along with this in match play is a few things, but mainly its simply that when a team is on the field, that team should put out the best effort it possibly can. For a while now the main take away of this was the immorality of throwing matches. Now however, there are no wins or losses, and all that matters is how much you score, period. So even now more then ever, not scoring as much as you know you can by not taking part in TNA, in my eyes is somewhat akin to throwing a match, since it takes zero skill to complete it, and is purely a choice.

Of course if no one wants to do it then, hey, do whatever you want. But as far as I can see, if even one team wants to, the rest have a moral obligation to do so, since there is no loser in doing it. As it stands now, even if one alliance was to try to screw the other one by, say, pushing noodles into the landfill, no one is more hurt than they would have been than they would have been by not participating in the first place, at least not directly.

Take this with a grain of salt, I do think straight up throwing a match is worse than not taking part in TNA, but what is for certain is that I certainly hoping I wont have to be on an alliance with a member that takes this stance. I want to, you know, rank highly, and don't want to have to just 'pass that up' from some sort of issue with whether or not the rules intended this.

To be honest, I don't like it either, but if its legal, there's no way I could tell my team that we aren't doing it.

People in general (and teams in this instance as well) certainly do NOT have any sort of obligation (moral or otherwise) to go along with the noodle agreement just because their alliance partners or their opponents want it. If they disagree with the principle, then not making an agreement is the best way to demonstrate that, and has the possibility of persuading other teams to also not make noodle agreements further down the line.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhishek R (Post 1422957)

I didn't see anything about making a blacklist for teams that didn't honor the coop bridge in 2012...what changed now?

In Rebound Rumble, if one alliance failed to contribute to the co-op bridge, neither alliance got the point for it. With TNA, if one alliance goes back on their word, they still get points while the other alliance who kept their word would not get points.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amar Shah (Post 1423106)

I don't think this is it. In rebound, an alliance could have gone over the co-op ramp expecting to meet and balance, only to be abandoned as the opposing alliance scored a triple balance.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man (Post 1422888)

I don't like the noodle agreement. It opens up too much potential for hurt feelings and betrayal. If I have anything to say about it, my team won't be participating in it.

That said, you can't (shouldn't) post something online discrediting another team's honesty unless you have undeniable proof that they indeed broke a pre-established agreement.

AMEN!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 1422907)

I really hope they kill this rule with a team update.

PLEASE FIRST...Make this the very first update to the rules! I personally would like to see it simply a referee's discretion that intentionally dropping noodles in what appears to be an agreement between opposing alliances gets both alliance 80 point penalties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkyshires (Post 1422922)

I think that at that point it's beyond silly.

I'm honestly getting tired of this stupid TNA thing. If FIRST doesn't release a rule change, people should just not do it. It gives teams an unfair advantage, and forces other teams into uncomfortable situations where they have to conform or get left behind, and conforming means trusting another alliance, which sometimes is a serious risk.

TL;DR The TNA is a dangerous slope and if FIRST doesn't release a rule change people should just not do it as it puts the rest of the teams at a competition in a difficult position.

WWWD? What Would Woodie Do?

And This! I'd like to see a public list of teams who refuse to be part of the Noodle Agreement..."Just say NO!" I may dig up one of those shirts from the 80's.

Re: TNA Blacklist

Andrea....I love the names "pasta pledge ponderers," and "spaghetti covenants or pacts." (Should the existing, IMHO poorly but, maybe not intentionally contrived, "Litter Rules" survive until the competition weeks, of course). (Agree TNA? The "Full Monte" or the "Half/Half?" OK, ALL 6 OF US AGREE "Full Monte" this time folks, so.....Let's ALL make GREAT Pasta Together Teams! Please remember...No "RUSHING to Recycle!" this time guys).

So, a fully contrived & completed (TNA) agreement that scores "Less than Max Pasta Points" (40 Points max each, w/all 20 "LITTERS" on the floor on the 2 ends, all scored as Unprocessed Litter every time....The mere "Pasta Drop"), for both Alliances could be referred to as "a Successful Italian Meal" or better yet, just...."The Full Monte."

Wherein, and as opposed to, the half derived & completed TNA "Half Elbow Mac/Half Angelhair" or shortened to "Half&Half" (that is actually higher scoring, but takes a bit more design, engineering, manual dexterity, planning & work, and a ton more trust & success)...The we keep 5 Litter each to use in building full point stacks (30 Points max each alliance), you keep 5 Litter to do the same (30 Points max each each alliance), and we both litter our field ends w/ the other 5 each (20 points max each)=50 Points per Alliance Possible (Total 100 points each match)....Could be referred to as simply we made great "Mac & Cheese" together, or we each grabbed "The Complete Pasta Casserole!" that time, yeeehawwwww!......Or, more simply put "Man, We sure Pigged out on the Pasta today!" So, Lets' all (the entire Alliance), meet up after the Finals tonight for dinner at "The Pasta Factory!" (For those scoring perfect TNA's of less than Max Past Points all day)....

Or, you could simply substitute -Let's Meet up tonight at "The Olive Garden!" for those "Scoring Max Pasta Points Throughout The ENTIRE Playoffs, for the Championship Alliance!"

So, no blacklisting would ever be necessary whatsoever (and would seem very NOT GP posted or publicly tracked anywhere/or at any time folks).

(ALL here is Tongue in Cheek...Mainly :rolleyes: )
__________________________
Just add to TBA (The Blue Alliance), and/or TRA (The Red Alliance).....

Willing TNA (Team #'s, Attempts) Not Willing TNA (Team #'s Attempts), Attempted & Failed )Those "TNA Willing" could add their names to the lists ahead of any competition and go on record publicly as "Willing" ahead of time.
-MPP Attempts/Scored
+MPP Attempts/Scored
-MPP Failed Attempts (fought over pasta).
+MPP Failed Attempts (fought over pasta).
"Dropped The Pasta Pan" (for those attempting min/max TNA Pasta Points and just somehow willing, but situationally failing to complete with total effort output presented) (Team #'s).....or.....simply...

"Burned The Water" (For those agreeing, and INTENTIONALLY going back on any agreement w/ full video evidence & signed contract presented therewith (Team #) LOL. Doing so, and listing a team as "Team XXXX "Burned The Water" on 5 (and the rest), of us today (at a Week Zero, Regional, District, Champs in the Q's, Playoff's/Finals, etc.), and without absolute concrete evidence (not really possible folks, without a self admissed written or recorded statement, or other really concrete evidence, as to an evidentiary admission of pure absolute guilt), would seem to be Not intended FIRST Representative, of the VERY Important mission of GP). WWWD? (What Would Woody Do?) I know that answer....He'd Put GP above all else, IMHO!

Just kidding on "Burned The Water", as that would still be GP non-grata! IMHO.

GDC...Please "Burn The Water" for all of us....By quickly & simply fixing "The Great 2015 TNA Pasta Dilemma" ASAP......We need no "pasta pledge ponderering," and "spaghetti covenants or pacts" in FIRST FRC's "Recycle RUSH!"

It was a great lesson in the "Prisoners' Dillemma", and a nice Social & Moral and a necessary Ethics Experiment (while working within a published unchangeable -by the players at least- ruleset)....But, it really won't make for a really fair & fun designing, building, and competing robot competition as published right now, and could create many instances of non-GP across the community to rear it's not so pretty head(s).

Just look at some of the discussions so far for any proof necessary...Posts & threads here on CD w/ the words "Blacklisting FRC Teams?" in them.....REALLY?) OUCH.:( :mad: :yikes: :rolleyes:

Re: TNA Blacklist

GO READ THE TEAM UPDATE

Quote from the note Frank left.

Quote:

We took a similar approach with the second form of collusion with the litter. We don’t know how often this would happen at actual events, and actively preventing it likely means more complicated rules. However, looking at the forums, the possibility of this noodle agreement happening at events looks as if it’s creating some concern in the community, and distracting from other strategic elements of the game. This still may not be likely to happen often at events under the current rules, but if it does, I think they will be less enjoyable.

So, in this case, we will be making some changes to the rules to discourage this activity. They won’t be perfect, but they should be an improvement. Game Design, like robot design, means working through many trade-offs. The changes are not ready for today’s update, but will follow shortly

This thread is end.

- Sunny G.