TNA Blacklist
 

I propose that somebody contributes to thebluealliance.com or creates an independent website that allows teams to create a blacklist of other teams that violated their part of The Noodle Agreement (TNA). That way, teams know whether or not another team can be trusted in TNA. What are your thoughts?

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This sounds like a great way to make other teams very upset, especially if there is no way to verify that the teams are violating the TNA.

Also, you would have to know which team had a human player at which Human Player station, to be feeding noodles through.

Finally, it may sometimes be strategic to NOT do TNA with higher ranked teams. (I'm sure I'll get flamed at for saying that, but in previous years where coopertition affected rankings, teams would refuse to cooperate with higher ranked alliances. See 2012, bridge balancing.)

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

this doesn't seem like it's in the spirit of FIRST to me... :(

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Are you saying teams would be upset if they were blacklisted or are you saying teams would be upset if another team violated their agreement? It would take into account the number of times they were listed, so just because one teams says you violated it, doesn't say much. If a lot of teams say you violated it, then that team wouldn't be trusted.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I'd have to agree. Seems like a bad idea which could only be sloppily executed. Not very GP.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

(a) I very much doubt TNA will survive the first couple of Team Updates.

(b) But assuming it does, I imagine that teams will participate in the Prisoner's Dilemma at whatever risk threshold they're comfortable with. The one-by-one "trust, but verify" method is, after all, open to every alliance.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

How so?

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Being blacklisted, mainly because there are a LOT of variables in play with TNA, and those can change based on the current rankings.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I agree with the one-by-one, but that doesn't mean a team won't move the noodles in the last 20 sec.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Well you are specifically creating a list of teams that "cannot be trusted" this would be public defiling of those teams' names and numbers. Doesn't sound very kind.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

So here's the thing: right now, with the rules as written, the pool noodles have the possibility to be another Co-op opportunity. In my mind, instead of 40 Co-Op points per match maximum, we could have 80!

The rules as currently written encourage The Noodle Agreement in most cases.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

But violating an agreement isn't kind either?

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

That's a good way of looking at it.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

So you are saying that for every unkind thing somebody does, they should be paired with another? "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." - Ghandi
What happened to turning the other cheek? I'm not saying violating an agreement is okay. I'm saying any alliance that does could have a number of reasons for doing it that they do not have to disclose for you. It's strategy.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I'm just not sure how you can justify violating an agreement without being able to justify publicly listing the violation.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This.


[side note; proud to see several Ptree/GA people in here!]

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

How do you verify this?

Who's to stop me from saying 2474 violated the agreement?

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Although I don't agree with blacklisting teams publicly, I don't think there is any legitimate reason why a team wouldn't be able to uphold their agreement unless they intended all along to break the agreement. One thing I can see is if their alliance partners are scoring lots of stacks, they may want to put noodles in containers and stack them. If that's the case though, the team could just communicate a maybe to the other alliance.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I just love how the Noodle Agreement already has an acronym...

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

It would be too easy to make false accusations, and would devolve into a contest of "Which FRC teams do people secretly dislike the most?", and wouldn't even be useful.

Yes, alliances who break TNA should be watched carefully, but that responsibility should be left to the scouting teams, who can then look at the circumstances.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

That a good point. I could see a system on TBA that only allows you to list teams that you've played against, but I'm not sure how exactly. Also, it would be a ranking system that would count the number of people that has listed you. If you only had one team list you, it wouldn't be bad, but if you had 10 teams list you, no body would agree to TNA with you.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Well, scouts could use the blacklist to see if they need to check up on a team. They could go back and watch videos from TBA or their own recordings to verify if the team did in fact violate TNA.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

If the TNA rules remain unchanged, it seems like a much more robust way to protect yourself is to noodle tit for tat. I put one out, you put one out... and so on for the rest of the match. If your HP stops matching, I'm down at most one noodle, and can start littering on your zone from a distance if need be.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This comes back to what I was originally saying, you have no way to really verify the agreement was broken.

And even if one TEAM on the alliance breaks the agreement, should the other 2/3rds of the alliance be punished for it?

Edit: Saw you posted this: "Well, scouts could use the blacklist to see if they need to check up on a team. They could go back and watch videos from TBA or their own recordings to verify if the team did in fact violate TNA."

How much time do you typically have between matches, or how many scouts do you have, that you have the time to find and watch previous recordings of a particular team, at a certain time? And the video would have to be focused on solely the human player for that one team.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I would verify it with video footage that is often on the blue alliance or with the video my team recorded. The Blacklist would just be a nice tool to see if I needed to go back and check the video.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I agree 100%.

...I will be surprised if that doesn't change, but if it doesn't, methinks anyone who doesn't participate...should.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Paul,
on paper, you are absolutely right that in essence, its an 80 point coopertition max.
The drawback though, is the "poolitics" you folks mentioned on your buildblitz strategy talk. Personally, i dont like it. Its asking for possible shenanigans and hard feelings among teams, especially later during qualifications as the PNA strategy becomes more evident on how it can affect teams overall scores.

The suggestion that the "difference" of the Pool Noodles on the floor is a great suggestion and would eliminate what I think is an oversight by the GDC.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Bingo. If they want to see who actually violates it, they should do watch the video and determine if there was a violation themselves.

Word of mouth about a team is often very unreliable in scouting. Have you ever had a pit scout ask a team "How many wheels do you have?" to be responded with some fake answer like "5 mecanum wheels". Or an unverifiable question such as "How many points do you score in auto?", "Oh we have a tote stacking auto".

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I don't like the noodle agreement. It opens up too much potential for hurt feelings and betrayal. If I have anything to say about it, my team won't be participating in it.

That said, you can't (shouldn't) post something online discrediting another team's honesty unless you have undeniable proof that they indeed broke a pre-established agreement.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Oh yeah, all the time. I just think it would be easier to see if they were blacklisted 10 times after a few competitions, you would know that you need to check some videos.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

It's essentially just scouting data. People make that publicly available all the time. If you want to verify it though, you'll have to check video for evidence. I think if I would have worded the proposal as "TNA Success Rates" people would have had a more positive reaction. It's essentially the same thing though.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

If you name it TNA Success rates, then you'd just have 0% rates for names and alliances that disagree to agree. It would still make them look bad. Let individual teams scout this kind of material if they should be so worried about who to trust or not. And worst comes to worst, "Oh no!" If you didn't score any of your noodles yes you would lose potential points. There are ways, however, to score more points than you would by following the noodle agreement. It would even force your opposing alliance to score less.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

When does this end though? A team on your alliance refuses to agree to the agreement, are you going to blacklist them too?

I feel the overall negatives to this agreement seriously outweigh the benefits...like hurting a team's reputation over something that's "just a game"....

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I really hope they kill this rule with a team update.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Agreed.

The real danger is the TNA in quarters/semis.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I'm not sure if TNA Blacklist is clear. It would list the teams that said they WOULD PUT noodles on the floor, but then did NOT PUT noodles on the floor. If a teams said in the beginning that they will not participate in TNA, that's okay.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This is your choice to not participate in the agreement, and while your own team can have its own morals (of course), just make sure you understand the ramifications this has for every other team on the field.

Teams in this game do not operate in a vacuum. This game is different, Frank did not lie, and almost all actions on the field are highly cooperative. Whatever match score your alliance ends up with, all three teams on that alliance have to live with it. In the case of TNA, all six teams on the field have to live with it.

A key point to FRC is gracious professionalism. What goes along with this in match play is a few things, but mainly its simply that when a team is on the field, that team should put out the best effort it possibly can. For a while now the main take away of this was the immorality of throwing matches. Now however, there are no wins or losses, and all that matters is how much you score, period. So even now more then ever, not scoring as much as you know you can by not taking part in TNA, in my eyes is somewhat akin to throwing a match, since it takes zero skill to complete it, and is purely a choice.

Of course if no one wants to do it then, hey, do whatever you want. But as far as I can see, if even one team wants to, the rest have a moral obligation to do so, since there is no loser in doing it. As it stands now, even if one alliance was to try to screw the other one by, say, pushing noodles into the landfill, no one is more hurt than they would have been than they would have been by not participating in the first place, at least not directly.

Take this with a grain of salt, I do think straight up throwing a match is worse than not taking part in TNA, but what is for certain is that I certainly hoping I wont have to be on an alliance with a member that takes this stance. I want to, you know, rank highly, and don't want to have to just 'pass that up' from some sort of issue with whether or not the rules intended this.

To be honest, I don't like it either, but if its legal, there's no way I could tell my team that we aren't doing it.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I agree. If we could assure that it would only simply state this specific team stated that they would and then renege on their word, but I think the term blacklist is the wrong word. It carries a negative connotation.

Maybe I'm a pessimist in this situation but I would really hope that in the case where it was 5 v 1 in favor of the agreement, that it wouldn't cause alliance in-fighting both on and off the field.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I wouldn't want my team to be remembered for publicly going against other teams by posting about it online. If you have a problem with something a team did, first talk to their team about it and make sure they didn't legitimately forget or misunderstand. If they really are jerks who are lying to your face, then be the mature one in the situation. There are lots of better and more mature ways to handle that situation then making a list of teams who don't do it. Also, keep in mind an action decided upon by a stressed high school student is a quick two minute match doesn't necessarily reflect the views of their team as a whole.

The noodle agreement, if allowed, is going to cause a lot more harm than good in this game.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I do not think a list is a good idea. At each regional/district the word will get out who does what. Then if people want they can check video of the match (give the match number ) and see the results.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I think that at that point it's beyond silly.

I'm honestly getting tired of this stupid TNA thing. If FIRST doesn't release a rule change, people should just not do it. It gives teams an unfair advantage, and forces other teams into uncomfortable situations where they have to conform or get left behind, and conforming means trusting another alliance, which sometimes is a serious risk.

TL;DR The TNA is a dangerous slope and if FIRST doesn't release a rule change people should just not do it as it puts the rest of the teams at a competition in a difficult position.

WWWD? What Would Woodie Do?

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

That won't happen.

I have no idea.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This does not tell the whole story. This also does not account for mistakes. There will be people who forget to honor the agreement, or misunderstand. What if the human player succumbs to injury and the other human players were unable to rotate roles in time? What if a team is overwhelmed by problems and is no longer prioritizing average score to focus on making a stack by the HP station.

How would a team get off the blacklist? A team could be ostracized for making mistakes, being overwhelmed by problems and making incorrect heat of the moment decisions.

Personally, I think the noodle agreement should at least be removed from the playoffs.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

It's robotics, not football.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I popped my shoulder while human playing once. Anything can happen.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Yes. My big thing against this is that:
1. If you are willing to partake in the agreement, you should know that it is a RISK and you should be mature enough to face the consequences of your actions - in placing a 50 point differential opportunity on the trust of an opposing alliance.
2. That you would also be mature enough to know that slanderous activity is not the solution. That is 100% not GP, hands down. Cannot defend that. Leave scouting this to INDIVIDUAL teams - if they really are even worried about trusting their enemies. I wouldn't be.

Definitions:
Opposing:
differing from or in conflict with each other.

By the sound of it, would mean you should not be spending efforts trying to agree with them.
Never settle. Reach for the upper hand. You can get more points not doing TNA than you can by doing it. --- Look into this if you don't believe me.

As Syndrome says in The Incredibles, "When everyone's super,... no one will be."

If everyone gets 40 additional points per match, doesn't really help, does it. I know that will not happen, but I'd argue that TNA is the poor man's way of balancing power from the more powerful teams (who, by the way, will hands down decline TNA every time and get the points themselves) by playing... Offensively. Who would have though it would be that way... guess this game really is competitive.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Although you can get more points with the noodles than without TNA, the time spent doing it is probably not beneficial than just doing TNA and getting points other wise. If you were to spend time putting noodles into your recycling containers, it would only net you a 2 points bonus compared to if you just did TNA. If the rule stays, I'm very confident the top teams will be doing TNA most of the time since they can spend time doing more efficient scoring.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I agree, it is a risk that you have to keep in mind. That's what the list would hopefully help you minimize.

And I disagree that it's slanderous. I don't see it any different than scouting and sharing that info (which people do all the time).

I know you can get more points by not doing TNA, but I doubt you will average more points if you don't do TNA. And the average is what matters.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I didn't see anything about making a blacklist for teams that didn't honor the coop bridge in 2012...what changed now?

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

You are wise.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This game isn't solely about how many points you get though. To win competitions, your... competition has to score less than you. By disagreeing to TNA you can force the opposing alliance to HAVE to get all points by playing offensively. If you know you can outscore again and again with a strategy that can put up 40 points in noodles every time without the TNA, you kind of shut down the opposing alliance. I argue that TNA will be seen more in matches where you have say 4 or 5 push bots - if that even happens - and you know it'll be low scoring, where you need a boost in points.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

It is slanderous because in normal scouting, you are sharing robot performance. You are now trying to call into question a team's character and whether or not they choose to hold their word.

I'm not saying that people should be lying outright but this isn't something that needs to be made public to everyone with an internet connection. Keep it in your team scouting and choose not to pick somebody because they "lied" but let's say the most dominant offensive robot is that team that "lied" in your situation, you won't accept them if they pick you or vice versa because they "broke word"?

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Scouting shows areas of strengths and weaknesses.
This...
Blacklist: a list of people or products viewed with suspicion or disapproval.
Not so much the strengths. I won't debate this with you any more.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I am in favor of a rule change to disincentivize noodle accords. If there is none, however, I am not in favor of a black list.

One thing pasta pledge ponderers may not have considered is that not all instances of broken promises will be intentional. There are times when spaghetti covenants will be broken accidentally, and as long as that is a possibility, I don't think anyone should publicly decry teams for dishonesty. Mistakes happen. The problem is that a black list necessarily implies dishonorable intentions. A lack of follow-through on the field may be a sign of less competence, but it doesn't make a team worthy of public scorn. It would be rare to know without any doubt that a team purposely pulled a dirty trick. I'll put it another way: I'd prefer the FRC community to give a shady team the benefit of the doubt than to hurt the reputation of a team who may not have behaved dishonorably.

I understand that the noodle agreement is a valid coopertition strategy according to the current game manual, but it detracts from the focus on engineering a robot to perform tasks that meet the game's challenges. Being able to engineer a robot should be far more valuable, points-wise, than something that requires no effort beyond weighing the reliability of another alliance. I'm hoping that the discussions of pasta pacts and blacklists are both rendered needless by a scoring change.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

People in general (and teams in this instance as well) certainly do NOT have any sort of obligation (moral or otherwise) to go along with the noodle agreement just because their alliance partners or their opponents want it. If they disagree with the principle, then not making an agreement is the best way to demonstrate that, and has the possibility of persuading other teams to also not make noodle agreements further down the line.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

In Rebound Rumble, if one alliance failed to contribute to the co-op bridge, neither alliance got the point for it. With TNA, if one alliance goes back on their word, they still get points while the other alliance who kept their word would not get points.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

I don't think this is it. In rebound, an alliance could have gone over the co-op ramp expecting to meet and balance, only to be abandoned as the opposing alliance scored a triple balance.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

AMEN!

PLEASE FIRST...Make this the very first update to the rules! I personally would like to see it simply a referee's discretion that intentionally dropping noodles in what appears to be an agreement between opposing alliances gets both alliance 80 point penalties.

And This! I'd like to see a public list of teams who refuse to be part of the Noodle Agreement..."Just say NO!" I may dig up one of those shirts from the 80's.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Andrea....I love the names "pasta pledge ponderers," and "spaghetti covenants or pacts." (Should the existing, IMHO poorly but, maybe not intentionally contrived, "Litter Rules" survive until the competition weeks, of course). (Agree TNA? The "Full Monte" or the "Half/Half?" OK, ALL 6 OF US AGREE "Full Monte" this time folks, so.....Let's ALL make GREAT Pasta Together Teams! Please remember...No "RUSHING to Recycle!" this time guys).

So, a fully contrived & completed (TNA) agreement that scores "Less than Max Pasta Points" (40 Points max each, w/all 20 "LITTERS" on the floor on the 2 ends, all scored as Unprocessed Litter every time....The mere "Pasta Drop"), for both Alliances could be referred to as "a Successful Italian Meal" or better yet, just...."The Full Monte."

Wherein, and as opposed to, the half derived & completed TNA "Half Elbow Mac/Half Angelhair" or shortened to "Half&Half" (that is actually higher scoring, but takes a bit more design, engineering, manual dexterity, planning & work, and a ton more trust & success)...The we keep 5 Litter each to use in building full point stacks (30 Points max each alliance), you keep 5 Litter to do the same (30 Points max each each alliance), and we both litter our field ends w/ the other 5 each (20 points max each)=50 Points per Alliance Possible (Total 100 points each match)....Could be referred to as simply we made great "Mac & Cheese" together, or we each grabbed "The Complete Pasta Casserole!" that time, yeeehawwwww!......Or, more simply put "Man, We sure Pigged out on the Pasta today!" So, Lets' all (the entire Alliance), meet up after the Finals tonight for dinner at "The Pasta Factory!" (For those scoring perfect TNA's of less than Max Past Points all day)....

Or, you could simply substitute -Let's Meet up tonight at "The Olive Garden!" for those "Scoring Max Pasta Points Throughout The ENTIRE Playoffs, for the Championship Alliance!"

So, no blacklisting would ever be necessary whatsoever (and would seem very NOT GP posted or publicly tracked anywhere/or at any time folks).

(ALL here is Tongue in Cheek...Mainly :rolleyes: )
__________________________
Just add to TBA (The Blue Alliance), and/or TRA (The Red Alliance).....

Willing TNA (Team #'s, Attempts) Not Willing TNA (Team #'s Attempts), Attempted & Failed )Those "TNA Willing" could add their names to the lists ahead of any competition and go on record publicly as "Willing" ahead of time.
-MPP Attempts/Scored
+MPP Attempts/Scored
-MPP Failed Attempts (fought over pasta).
+MPP Failed Attempts (fought over pasta).
"Dropped The Pasta Pan" (for those attempting min/max TNA Pasta Points and just somehow willing, but situationally failing to complete with total effort output presented) (Team #'s).....or.....simply...

"Burned The Water" (For those agreeing, and INTENTIONALLY going back on any agreement w/ full video evidence & signed contract presented therewith (Team #) LOL. Doing so, and listing a team as "Team XXXX "Burned The Water" on 5 (and the rest), of us today (at a Week Zero, Regional, District, Champs in the Q's, Playoff's/Finals, etc.), and without absolute concrete evidence (not really possible folks, without a self admissed written or recorded statement, or other really concrete evidence, as to an evidentiary admission of pure absolute guilt), would seem to be Not intended FIRST Representative, of the VERY Important mission of GP). WWWD? (What Would Woody Do?) I know that answer....He'd Put GP above all else, IMHO!

Just kidding on "Burned The Water", as that would still be GP non-grata! IMHO.

GDC...Please "Burn The Water" for all of us....By quickly & simply fixing "The Great 2015 TNA Pasta Dilemma" ASAP......We need no "pasta pledge ponderering," and "spaghetti covenants or pacts" in FIRST FRC's "Recycle RUSH!"

It was a great lesson in the "Prisoners' Dillemma", and a nice Social & Moral and a necessary Ethics Experiment (while working within a published unchangeable -by the players at least- ruleset)....But, it really won't make for a really fair & fun designing, building, and competing robot competition as published right now, and could create many instances of non-GP across the community to rear it's not so pretty head(s).

Just look at some of the discussions so far for any proof necessary...Posts & threads here on CD w/ the words "Blacklisting FRC Teams?" in them.....REALLY?) OUCH.:( :mad: :yikes: :rolleyes:

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

GO READ THE TEAM UPDATE

Quote from the note Frank left.

This thread is end.

- Sunny G.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

OK....So, "Blacklisting FRC Teams?" isn't an exact quote of "TNA Blacklist", but this is the second or third or more thread so far mentioning "BLACKLIST" this week, that I have personally seen so far, in relation to 2015 FIRST FRC.

TNA is still currently possibly a real world problem in 2015 FRC...However, Blacklisting FIRST FRC TEAMS...Should never become, if properly applying GP, any "real world problem of ours." It simply should NOT BE DONE.

Discussing gameplay & ruleset strategy is very important, recognizing scoring problems that may/do create moral or ethical dilemmas, may also be very important....But, crossing over imaginary lines on the floor (and VERY REAL LINES in the FIRST MISSION STATEMENT concerning GP), is & can be easily penalized folks.
________________________
From the ruleset GLOSSARY:

UNPROCESSED LITTER – LITTER which is fully contained by an ALLIANCE’S side of the FIELD but not scored in their LANDFILL ZONE or
scored in a RECYCLING CONTAINER. Each ALLIANCE receives an UNPROCESSED LITTER Bonus for the UNPROCESSED LITTER on the
opposite ALLIANCE’S side of the FIELD.
_________________________
Notice the word "BONUS" in that definition, it may very well be totally intentional (by the GDC), to simply test our ethics as a community, and how we personally as individual people, teams & alliances, solve the real world problems of ethics and GP, in the real business world properly.

CORRECTION: I just personally checked the UPDATES released today, and it (TNA collusion possibilities), was fully discussed by the GDC before the Game Release at Kickoff...See Frank's Personal Note, and the promise of a change soon. (I urge everyone to go read the UPDATES IMMEDIATELY!)
____________________
Below is just partially taken from the end of "Frank's Personal Note" in Today's Update (1-6-2015), concerning the Litter Rules and TNA Collusion, and how it is possibly distracting from other strategic elements of the game. (Go read the entire Note in the Update Section Please for all the what, whys, what for's, and effects....It is a full understanding type explaination note).

"........So, in this case, we will be making some changes to the rules to discourage this activity. They won’t be perfect, but they should be an
improvement. Game Design, like robot design, means working through many trade-offs. The changes are not ready for today’s update, but
will follow shortly."

Frank
_______________
We can work together to solve the problems (though it looks like they will fix them for us, to somewhat discourage TNA - they are just not quite ready yet), as long as we remain ethical & moral (simply put as GP), in relation to how we all do so.
_________________________

I would like to thank the entire GDC and Frank personally, for looking at the "Noodle Dillemma" and for early on, planning on taking some kind of reasonable change action (even if not eventually perfect)...

May I suggest a simple change to a combo of awarding a +2 Bonus of points to the opposing Alliance, & a -2 Deduction of points (or Penalty) to each Alliance posessing UNPROCESSED LITTER (TNA effect would be NET ZERO Bonus, if that TNA collusion is also present), except for the litter left in the original drum exception of course, (as it still gives a 4 point net effect per Unprocessed Litter, and negates or takes away any & all advantage to any broad spectrum TNA), but still allows Alliance/Team litter collusion if they wish to participate in such, without a simple single 6 teams/2 alliance agreement thereby forcing all others, to either collude (whether they wish to or not), from thereon, or get left in the dust as far as the QA points average is concerned.

There were a few other equally good suggestions already made too, and I'm sure there are other solutions not yet even thought of by either the community, or the GDC. But, that 1 seems IMHO, the easiest to implement by a software coding change (and a rule change), in the scoring of the game concerning UNPROCESSED LITTER (still allows litter collusion and GP actions), and, once the solution was implemented, would affect all matches throughout the season equally. (The more TNA was thought about, the more differring collusion routes, results, & combinations presented themselves (EG: +80 Easy/+100 Harder/+0 Easiest...My bet & money wasn't on +Zero being the often chosen answer, as the FRC Community rarely chooses Easiest as an answer...to pretty much anything).

Then, many could just get back to designing and implementing the processing & recycling, of as much litter as possible in "Recycle RUSH!" (Let's get back to building robots now, and beyond the Game Strategy section...That clock is ticking down really fast!)

Thanks again, to FIRST, The entire GDC, and FRANK for noticing, listening, and responding to the FRC Community! (Frank Merrick, Director of FRC, & Leader of the GDC - "He be....The Man!"):)

The 2015 FIRST FRC "Noodle Dillemma" is somewhat easier to resolve than "The Prisoners' Dillemma." (And we look forward to it being improved or resolved soon as promised today, in one way or another).

YEAH! (Sry Sunny, I was still formulating and typing when you posted...I also saw the update in another browser while doing so too).

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Hooray, sounds like it'll die.

The enormous problem with a blacklist is that it is difficult to verify that every single team in an alliance got the message. It would be very easy for someone who was on the wrong side of a TNA result to say "THAT TEAM SAID THEY WOULD!"

*But maybe the opposing that said they would wasn't the team with the HP at the HP station.
*Maybe the agreement was with a driver, and they didn't have time to tell their HP
*Maybe circumstances intervened
*Maybe a huge tote stack got built and hurt visibility, so that other team couldn't see the noodles getting put out.
*Maybe a robot accidentally cleaned up the noodes while heading to the STEP.

Regionals are loud, exciting places. The TNA handshake would need to percolate from those that handshook to the 20 or so people involved in coaching, operating, and human-playering in the match.

A blacklist entry for a team would be a claim that:
1) Everyone in the match (drivers, coaches, and most importantly human players on all 3 teams) was in agreement they'd do TNA
and
2) It didn't happen.
and
3) It didn't happen because of a bad faith violation of TNA.

It is easy to verify [2] with video. It would be very, very hard to verify [1] or [3], and so wouldn't be worth besmirching a team's reputation.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This is almost disgraceful...

Why would we make a blacklist just to hurt other teams' reputations? That is very sad... The Noodle Agreement doesn't make sense anyway because all it would do is give you a higher score... but give the other team a higher score as well. Why not just focus on getting the highest score you can for your team?

Gracious Professionalism... isn't that a thing?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

This concept angers me, also the verification process wouldn't even make it worth it. Because how on earth do you verify who's HP that is? And if you can't do you blacklist the whole alliance?

You are choosing to participate in something that is essentially exploiting points, if someone screws you over then OH WELL you chose to participate.

Do what you want with it but this concept seems pretty childish

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

You could indeed verify that one alliance failed to dump noodles, or perhaps herded their noodles into the Landfill at the last moment. What you could never confirm is the nature of the putative agreement itself: which of the six teams involved actually did or did not agree to abide by TNA in the first place under the confusing pre-match conditions. Who felt pressured to do something they weren't really comfortable with? Who sent a runner to the opposing alliance before the match started to rescind TNA that didn't get the message through? etc., etc. A blacklist is just a very bad idea for trying to deal with an ill-conceived incentive system that the GDC will, we hope, straighten out shortly.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Co-op balancing wasn't a factor in eliminations.
Triple balancing wasn't a factor in qualifications.

You general point can still stand (team decides to score winning points in some fashion while member of other alliance waits on co-op bridge), but not the specifics regarding the triple balance.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Same thing can happen here in Recycle Rush (Not in just 1 way, but 2 possible ways)...For some reason an alliance may decide not to participate in Co-Op. (And there will be more than 1 single reason for any instances that possibly occur).

You put 3 Yellow Totes on the Step, you don't need them to do anything except put at least 1 of their Yellow Totes on the Step (that you can actually reach that is, or reach eventually during the match w/ time left to score), and you can cap your own stack of 3 Yellow Totes with their 1, and you have both gained the Co-Op stack points immediately after your release of the stack for at least 3 seconds. (The Co-Op act is actually the act of moving them to the shelf, not necessarily the stacking of them, though 1 must stack it to gain the full 4 stack points.

But, if they steal the stack (earlier, or any time within those 3 seconds mentioned earlier after the stack), and store it on the other side of the step, or they never place even 1 Yellow Tote on the step at all, ever during the match (or do "The Foolish Floor Store" method for some unknown reason)...There isn't a thing you can do about it! Co-Op, simply takes 2 alliance (or at least 2 team), cooperation in 1 form or another, and at least 4 Totes making it onto that shelf.

Some people just shun (or for some unknown reason, don't buy into easily), opposition team/alliance cooperation when competing. The QA (Qualifying Points Averaging), should help in getting a bit more Co-Op. participation this year I would think & hope.

We'll soon see.

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

BTW, as it stands right now (still looking very forward to the promised Litter Rule or scoring changes, hopefully this Tuesday)....Litter TNA Collusion does not even take 6 teams to actually collude...It takes only 2 single team members (or 2 Coaches directing 2 human players, 1 from each alliance in Q1 or anytime later)...And everyone thereafter, must either do so and follow suit, or risk lower QA Points Averages at the end of 10 Q Matches are completed.

See my recent post about "Immediate 10 Litter Hogging/HPZ Campout" during Auto in the TNA Thread.

There are so many possible nuances & possibilities concerning points scoring & overall game strategy with this particular game, that it is amazing. It is a whole lot more than just building stacks and vision hampering walls right in front of yourselves. Keeping track of where you are vs. the competition will not be easy to say the very least. If you do your jobs right....You won't even be able to see your competition a minute and a half or so into it. (Build outside inward folks).
____________________
Off Topic here;

And for those who will be putting cameras up on poles above their driver consoles (easily done using a webcam software on the laptop without using the FMS I'd think)....I hope they also saw the other Q&A question & answer also about the possible use of clamps on the driver console shelves, and allowing clamping their consoles to the shelves (The answer was basically that it was "OK as long as it does not damage the shelf"), as I certainly hope we do not see the teams step back behind the lines (you are usually there for more than just 15 seconds, but controlled behind that line at least 15 seconds during auto), and all those poles, cameras, and driver consoles come tumbling down on top of team members heads repeatedly!) Since FIRST says it is OK, I have nothing to say.::safety::

But, that is just asking a whole lot of a simple velcro strip IMHO, and the glue that holds it onto both surfaces,...some painted, some wood & the other myriad of materials used on the consoles.;)

I can just imagine your own robots during Auto slamming into that Alliance wall (because of speed & reversed code entered among other things, the shelves are directly attached to that wall), and an avalanche of driver consoles w/ poles & cameras all up high, come tumbling down while you are not looking up, but watching how your robots are doing during auto through the glass 3~4 steps back, or worse, while the whole crew is stacking those totes right outside the Human Player Zones for later use.:ahh: ::ouch::

Teleop Period would gain a whole new meaning if you were all using the precious time to P.U. and attempt to reconnect to the field or even worse, all those damaged cameras/LCD's/controllers/ & hard drives possibility. (hint: If your laptop has an accelerometer hard drive parking capability internally,...always make sure it is installed software/driver wise, and turned on or active). Don't think it cannot happen....(It does often enough without poles or cameras up high attached to them).

And we thought they dropped consoles before, or it was a fairly tough or uncomfortable pc. to carry around. LOL. Not yet!;)

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

Your penalty for not reading the FRIDAY team update (issued today) is to first read the update, then apply the corrective action to the noodle. :D

After which, please clean the shop. :rolleyes:


(Taken care of using the "colored tape on the ends and middle" method, and if the color matches, no points except in landfill, but if the color doesn't match, points go to SOMEBODY.)

Re: TNA Blacklist
 

They did a great job between the Q&A and the 1-6-2014 & 1-9-2104 Updates. Great job! (Goodbye TNA, glad we never really met ya!).