Is Autonomous worth it?
 

The top autonomous score last year was 75, which in many matches was half or more of the total score. This year, the top is only 32. This includes getting the 3 totes stacked, which gives 20 points. My question is, do you think that it is worth the programming hours for vision tracking (which I know does not need to be done)and testing and praying that other robots don't get in the way for a measly 20 points?

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

In our case, it is. Getting a stacked set for 20 during auto saves time and makes it easy to do your part to get the 40 coop points very quickly during the teleoperated period.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

The problem is that at the regional level, there won't be many situations where 32 points is negligible as that will probably be more than half of the average score per match. You have fifteen seconds dedicated to attempting to score these points, in my eyes it is absolutely worth attempting to score points (provided that you don't have an Alliance partner who you will be interfering with)

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Another option to consider for autonomous is grabbing recycling containers from the step. Depending on your alliance's stacking abilities, this may get you more net points as those containers will probably be snatched up quickly in teleoperated.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I'm trying not to count anything as not worth it. Because matches can be won or lost by 1 point. It's happened plenty of times before.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

While the impact on points relative to a match may be smaller, because qualifications are based on average points instead of win/loss, those 20 points can have a much larger impact (there will likely be a number of regionals where one or more spots on the top 8 is decided by a margin of 20 points).

Also for teams with very specific subsystems, the hours are easier spent -if you have a specific group working on programming, then this gives them more things to work towards besides tele-op controls, which are frequently (but not always) relatively straightforward to develop.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

At the very least, there's the standard disclaimer that scoring values may change at Champs.

Also, 20 points is 20 points. That's 10 totes or a RC on 3 totes or a RC+litter on 2 totes. I think that would be a winning margin in a lot of matches. If your non-autonomous programming efforts aren't going to added up to 20 points of improved efficiency, then your time really might be better spent on auton.

EDIT:And just realized I'm still falling into W-L-T thinking. It's apparently really difficult to shift into an average points mindset.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

In my opinion the 20 points is worth doing the programming for, without vision tracking because I honestly think tracking is worthless this year.

Doing the three tote stack is the only reliable way to get any points in autonomous this year, at least at a regional. Also I think that scoring 20 points in auto will account for a good portion of your qualification average at a regional.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

While I too am skeptical of their point value's worth in the game, this year's autonomous tasks can be nice time savers (which, after all, is how you get a large amount of points in a short match) for actions that will take place in teleop. For example, getting a container set only requires that the containers be in the auto zone, not placed on the ground not touching a robot. By having a team pick up and move a container into the zone, they are now easily poised to place that container on a stack.

More so, while creating a three stack in autonomous could be a small amount of points over the match, once that stack is created is can then be easily utilized for the co-op stack later on, possibly leading to a quick 40 points if the other alliance can simply place a single tote on the step. That time save may equally or more important than the auto points themselves.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Top auto score is 40 by our calculations and will probably just help to close high scoring matches.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Technically you are correct, but I don't think something that hard to complete will happen till extremely high play, like Einstein.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Depending on time and skill (we have all new programmers this year) we will look at implementing several auto modes that can be selected by the drive team.

We will start with the simple ones of robot set, tote set and container set where we move nothing or one game piece during auto. Once that is done (and if we have the time) we will look at doing an auto stack by ourselves (with the rest of the alliance getting out of the way).

I would love to see us do more, but we don't have the time / knowledge to work on vision this year.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I simply don't see an Autonomous Stack happening except by single robots picking up all three crates--and that's going to be a difficult task only accomplished by the best of the best.

The totes are about 21 feet apart, so you have fifteen seconds to acquire, move ~7', acquire-stack, move ~7', acquire-stack, move ~7' to get in the zone (Auto Zone!), let go, then move a very small amount.

All while avoiding your alliance partners and the Containers.

Possible? Sure.
Probable? Only at the highest levels of competition.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I think there are two concerns here:

First, how much does autonomous cost from a team strategy perspective. By team strategy, I mean resource (time and personnel) allocation within a team over the course of the season. Unfortunately that's heavily dependent on what resources you have available to you.

I will say that I believe autonomous code (vision tracking <: auto code) is an interesting and educational software challenge which can be useful independent of (a) actual use (b) autonomous period and (c) this year. Autonomous operation isn't only restricted to autonomous period after all (especially in a game with such potential for visual impairment) and is annually part of the game.

The second concern is the value from a match strategy perspective.

I haven't done any points analysis or prediction this year, so deciding whether the 20/32 points is good proportionally I'll leave to other people.

Regardless of point values, there is of course the value of fifteen seconds of match time. Non-autonomous points can be "scored" during autonomous too, and it would seem like a waste to do nothing. But probably in a lot of teams' minds this year is that it's not just fifteen seconds, but the first fifteen seconds. Namely, two things are true:

a) the field is clear (no stacks have been built)
b) four recycling containers are on the step

As time progresses in a match, retreiving the containers could become harder as neither of those things are guaranteed to be true. Ambitious teams recognize that the maximum scores can only be achieved with containers, as they effectively act like multipliers.

(There's also a regional strategy perspective that could come in to play. Autonomous code is an attractive message to send out and could even be recognized in an award)

tl;dr - imo i'd nick the bins

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Not to single out Patrick here, but this is indicative of a lot of "thinking before the change." There's an assumption here that you need to move to do each acquire-stack operation. Separately, there's an assumption that you need vision tracking to find the totes. But, I can just as easily picture a situation where a robot touches all of the totes with a mechanism at match start, pulls them toward each other in a known and predictable way, stacks them, and carries them into the Auto Zone and sets them down. Not that my team is planning on building that mechanism, but the stack can be made without moving the robot in (as a guesstimate) 5 seconds. Then drive forward and set it down. 20 points in 8 seconds. Boom done.

I know my team has struggled with the change. It's pretty dramatic, really opens up possibilities, but also takes effort to shift the frame of reference.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Yes, that's true--you could. But "120 lbs" and "twenty-foot robot" are not things I expect to see, at any point, by any team. The teams that could pull it off won't, because they know the value of the containers on the step (which you won't be able to go get in any realistic manner if you're already 21' wide)...the teams that can't pull it off, well, can't pull it off.

[You also don't need vision tracking, if you know where the totes are (which you do) and you know where your robot starts (which you rather should.) Encoders and maybe a gyro should be sufficient.]

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

There are many reasons that a robot may weigh 120lbs, particularly if it's a forklift and needs a counterweight.

As for a 20 foot robot, one prototype 2789 is working on involves the most distant ends of our robot being 22 feet apart at match start. And, it has a valid strategic purpose. After we are done with that strategic purpose, the robot's envelope is reduced to 27"x42".

I'm going to botch the quote, but like Morpheus said in the matrix: "Free your mind."

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

OP - auto is always worth it. It's 15s to get points, if you do nothing you are wasting 15s, a reasonably long portion of the total match time.

So someone is trying to build the 'wings of death' robot that grabs all four cans off of the barrier first thing... interesting.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Team 71 makes its return?

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Who said anything about wings?

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

:D

:rolleyes: I put 'wings of death' in quotes as it was simply what our team called the idea. Seemed easier than calling it: 'that idea where the robot grabs all four cans off of the barrier first-thing with a large extendable mechanism and then collapses down to a smaller profile for the rest of the match.' You may call it whatever you wish, of course. :)

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I warn you against comparing different years when considering point values. A 6-stack with a recycling bin on top is worth 32 points, which is less than a high goal triple assist from last year, but the assists are easier and faster.

This year's game is going to have lower point scores than last year, so a 32-point auto will probably be equivalent to a full 75 point auto from last year.

A great example of differences in points is 2010 Breakaway. The World's highest score that year was 29 in the infamous Curie match 100, and 29 is much less than other years.

My point is, if you are treating points for different games equally, then it is a good idea to get away from that since the scores are not equivalent.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

OP, each team has to answer the question on their own. I believe that what happens at each regional will depend on the teams involved. While many will only see one or two robots that function in auto I am relatively sure that champs will see many robots that have auto functionality especially in the finals.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I think if you want to succeed in being at least a 3rd bot in this game your robot better at least move/push/punch a container to the auto zone on its way there during auto. other than that...cake...or maybe its frosting...

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Remember the change. Consider that a robot does not necessarily have to be huge (in terms of mass) to start while in contact with all of the yellow totes. Think of small things that could fairly easily pull a tote to a robot.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Teams that score well in autonomous tend to get picked, so its at least worth thinking about it.

Here is one full auto scenario.

- Assume 2 alliance bots are capable of shoving their bins to auto zone. I think about 70% of them can at least attempt it.

- The third bot can now be pointed down a line of 3 yellow totes and a bin at the end. You just a contact switch that tells you when you hit the tote and a way to stack it. A machine could roll forward and stack each one, then shove the bin and itself into autozone.

Tough but not impossible. There will be teams that can do this.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

You might want to be careful there, since G7-B says "fully supported by the floor, SCORING PLATFORM, and/or SCORING PLATFORM ramps on their ALLIANCE’S side of the FIELD". You might run into trouble if you have a mechanism so lightweight it ends up supported by a TOTE. Also entanglement hazards are still a bad thing, even if not immediately illegal.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

This year the competition is not head to head. So winning a match is not that important. But 20 points per match over the course of the seeding matchs will be very important.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Is getting 20 points that are no longer available during tele-op worth it? Seems like a pretty easy answer to me.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I look at it like this:
If I am not gaining the autonomous points, I need to be doing something else that is more productive than what I can do during those 15 seconds.... So, If I can get 20 points by myself in autonomous, in order to skip it, I need to be starting a tall stack have a bin and two or three totes inside my robot before the end of the auto period.

These are choices to be made at the time of the match. For instance, if my two partners do not have autonomous routines that can go for the points, but each can send their robots to the landfill, it makes a lot of sense for me to grab the auto points and prepare to load at the feeder station after the 15 second period.

If the question is: "Is it worthwhile to develop a good autonomous routine?" I would say "absolutely."

If the question is: "Is it worthwhile to perform that autonomous routine?" I would say, "It depends on the capabilities of your alliance partners."

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Is Autonomous worth it? Absolutely. Stacking 3 yellow totes and moving them into the auto zone and not touching them is a very very hard task. Only a few teams will be able to do it and they will expend allot of resources to do it. We are not putting resources into doing it. A much simpler and very doable autonomous strategy is to have all three alliance members push the tote and can into the auto zone. This is not hard. It can be as simple as putting a 40 to 45" 2x3 or 2 x 4 on the back or front of the robot around 8" off the floor. A piece about 8" sticking out from the left side helps with the can. Encoders are needed to measure distance the robot travels and the robot needs to go straight. With a little practice, the speed and distance can be dialed in and the tote, can and robot be placed in the auto zone. 18 points for a little effort. But all alliance members must do it. All or nothing. Our team may bring a setup to the comp to assist our alliance members with this. Our programers need to be ready to help lesser teams accomplish this. It's really not that hard. 18 point is 18 points. At a district 18 points x 12 matches is not an insignificant addition to your score.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Sounds easy....but it might not be quite that easy, if you also want your robot to be able to play the rest of the game. That 45" wide piece of wood would certainly get in the way of our manipulators, and probably knock over some stacks when driving around, if we were able to make stacks with it in place.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

The time it takes to program the autonomous code, will all be worth it. One game can be decided by one point. You will always miss the shot you don't take. Rather than limiting yourself week 3, you should program something at least. Then in the competition you will always have the option of getting those points without relaying on others.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Hmmmm... That is exactly what I say every season, "This or that can't possibly be accomplished by a team until Einstein" And, invariably I am proved wrong. In fact, one of my favorite things to look forward to during the initial weeks of the competitions is to see who will be the first to do "the seemingly impossible".

That being said, we shoot for that impossible task and the degree to which we fall short (and we always do, so far) is how we rate our progress towards developing a better robot than the year before.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

There won't be many games that are "decided" at all this year. In fact, I would be quite happy with my team if we lose a match this year. ;)

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Wow! I was thinking the exact thing when I read about grabbing all three RC's at the same time.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

The alliance on the opposite side of the field is not your opponent. You don't beat them. You and 2 other teams play for your selves. How many points can you get this match? If a team can do a 3 tote stack 3 out of 10 or 4 out of 12 of the time and another team works with their partners each match and get 3 tote, 3 robots and 3 cans in the auto zone every time, who is ahead.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Right, I forgot that there is no winning matches. Well I am willing to bet many teams will be undefeated this year. ;)

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Actually, a maximum of three matches can be decided by one point: everything else is averages.

But since we're talking averages, let's discuss.

Last year's Palmetto Regional saw teams play nine qualification rounds. You get one more tote in teleop in one match (so, +2), and your average score increases by 2/9=.22. By the same math, that 20-point autonomous stack? 2.22 points to your average if you pull it off once.

In the quarterfinals, where you only get two matches? 2/2=1.00, 20/2=10.00.

If you're not scoring at least the robot set in autonomous, you'd better be lining up something pretty freakin' sweet for teleop.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Your completely right, the teams that can do a auto consistently, will have a large advantage over others in terms of ranking. Autonomous is always worth the time during build.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Autonomous is definitely worth it. Since qualifying is directly based off of points now, those 20 points mean a lot. Vision tracking, however, is a different story. From what I've seen, I don't see the point in tracking onto the yellow tote when you can just start in a pre-defined position (you can use measuring tools to position your robot now) and have a much fancier autonomous without having to spend a large amount of time writing vision processing code.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

You are making me want to take a trip to Alamo just to see this.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I'm imagining you plan to not need partners in autonomous, or are grabbing all the step containers at once.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

That dimension fits right in with the distance the containers are apart from each other.

Whelp that's one ambiguous comment solved...

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

A million times yes.
Doing the math (which I won't bother to bore any of you here with), you will quickly figure out that AUTO greatly helps.
Think about it logically as well, the more points you score, the higher your average will be, correct? Wouldn't you want a high average?

I think at the least teams should be going for a robot set. Even if the programming on the team isn't strong, I'm sure they can have the wheels spin for a set amount of time to move into the AUTO zone.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I think there will be events where the autonomous high score is 12.

I think there will be events where the mean autonomous score is below 4.

I think there will be events where the mode autonomous score is 0.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I think you're probably right.

As to "the math," it's very, very easy: you have fifteen seconds in which to score points. Is it better to score points *and* set yourself up for teleop, score points only, set yourself up for teleop only, or do something else?

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

The question this year isn't "is it worth it to do autonomous?" - it's "do we want to be the only ones that don't do autonomous?"

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

And if you have a robot that can sore 20 in autonomous every time - single-handedly - or *cough* 28, would it not be worth doing - while your two alliance partners start preparing to stack?

More than the last several years, when thinking about Autonomous this year, we have to think of ourselves not as a single robot but, rather, as a member of an alliance. Yes, the center recycling containers will be important - especially in tougher events/matches. However, only one or two robots needs to make a move for them. Yes, stacking the recycling bins that start on our side is important - but how many robots need to do that at once. Up to 32 autonomous points are possible - that's too many points to completely ignore - especially when you can compile them before sending a single tote out of the feeder station.

The key will be coordinating the efforts of the entire alliance... Robots able to do a couple of different things (even/especially? during autonomous) will have an advantage as they will find success with different mixes of alliance members.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

The question isn't "should we", it's "what should we". There are a lot of ways to spend your time, and some of them might result in more than 20 or 30 points later in the match. Of course, most of us know that by now. I just think the "points" in auto might be forgone by a number of teams.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Agreed. But if your alliance doesn't get an autonomous score because your robot didn't move - regardless of the outcome of the match - that could be damaging to your team's image.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Right, of course. I hope every robot moves. (could this be a reasonable hope this year?)

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I don't remember any robots not moving last year by the end of the regionals. Mind you, we did see issues with robots moving the wrong direction or not stopping and slamming into the wall.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

My question is did some team dare to make a robot that didn't move and do they have a super strategy....
It would be a risky move but who knows I find this community of students and mentors is very very smart and creative.

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

Autonomous is always worth it, and if it wasn't possible first wouldnt make it sound possible, our design this year is going to specifically focus on stacking three in auto and bringing them into the autozone in the allotted time, aswell as another auto the grabs two recycle bins off the step( at the same time), since we could do this we could do everything else the game calls for aswell. therfore in my opinion i think it is highly vALUBALE!

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

HAHA we tetered on the thought of a stationary elevator system that would go from the human player station to the near platform that would raise and lower by air cylanders therfore the human player would just place the tote out of the chute and it would travel on up the elevator then come off at the platform the we would raise it too the next level and attempt it again.

we decided though that this was two one sided of an option and really limits our ability to work with other robots

Re: Is Autonomous worth it?
 

I completely agree with this.

We are planning to have a couple of different auto modes for different situations. Depending on our partners' capabilities* I could see our alliance going for 0, 4, 8, or 12 points in auto.

*Their actual capabilities, determined by scouting, not the capabilities that they think they have.