PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Hello! A big thank you already from FIRST Team 5259 Magic Smoke.

So, reviewing the rules as well as watching several videos a question came to mind that we can't seem to find an answer for!

Watching multiple videos from teams such as Snow Problem and Redacted I was wanting to know if it was legal to have something such as a lift such as a forklift or the designs they had brought to the table since the arms of the lift do not fold up into the robot in order to go into the bounds of the robot's area.

Is that legal to have such a thing? Or, are the arms required to fold up in a way that they are not protruding in front of them through the match?

Thank you all so much, every bit of help is appreciated! :]

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

The robot must fit within the TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION listed in R3 B. If your chassis is small enough, you may not need to fold up protrusions. Otherwise, you'd better find a way to get everything inboard while carrying it on and off the field!

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

So, if it does fold up I assume it's allowed to then go past those dimensions? Or, once it's unfolded is it still required to stick to those same exact numbers?

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

There are no game rules specifying max length or width while the robot is on the field.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

If it folds up enough such that the robot is able to completely fit within a 28 x 42 x 78 inch box, then you can extend out. If the chassis is 28 x 30, that gives you 12 inches for extensions that don't have to fold up because they can still fit in the box, since the frame is 12 inches smaller than the transport size.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Yes, the 28x42x78 inch dimensions are the transport configuration. You can start the match larger than this, but you only have one minute to reconfigure your robot before the match starts per the blue box of rule G10.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Provided the robot is able to be changed from TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION to ready for the match within about 1 minute.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

I wonder if robots will be checked coming to the field and going off?
I was thinking that there might be a box near the field that an inspector might take a robot to before it goes on the field in the case that it looks like it is not in the "transport configuration" A tape measure is a very poor way to deal with this... a transport sizing box would be better... at least a frame of some sort... that could be slipped over a robot ...

How will this be penalized? I can see that a referee might DQ a robot before the match but how about after the match?

This is a question that needs to be asked in QA before something it gets tested at an event.

I can definitely see an anxious robot team forgetting to bring in an arm before taking the robot off the field to get out of the way for a reset.
What will happen if they do this?

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Yes, it's called the door way to get access from most pits to the playing field. Most of the sites the pits are in a different room, so the robot will need to clear the door.

The loud crunching sound when the robot hits the surrounding frame will be the notification that they are out of spec. :rolleyes:

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

You are a funny guy.... most doors are bigger than 28"

how will the doorway check the 42" spec?

I know you thought were making a joke... but I would be surprised if there were not something to judge this... Remember we have not used a sizing box for the past two years.... wondering if it is coming back.

I thought they might have one of those little sizing things like they have at the airport for take on luggage right next to the field....


The question is actually more about how this would be penalized... I see no provision in the rules for a penalty after the match.... perhaps before but not after....

There will be teams that leave the field without folding up their robot .... is it going to make a difference?

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

I don't believe I've seen anything that says that the robot has to arrive at the field in transport configuration, just that has to be able to. And of course it should be able to when needed.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Thanks for thinking I'm funny, I'm here all season, don't forget to tip your waitress. :rolleyes:

If you do a quick check on the doors in your build facility the normal doors with the push bar give you just about 28-29" of clearance. If you are building in a location with a 30" door, the knob is going to stick out and snag the robot on the way by.

Now get two roboteers to pick your 42" robot up and now measure the distance from the top of the robot to the floor. You'll find that it will just clear the door at the top. Yes, most teams have carts, but if you carry it's going to just clear it.

I'll guess that during inspection when they weigh the robot they will measure the folded heights. One of the LRI's can most likely chime in about how they will measure it.

The rule is more about safety than anything else. The weight has to do with two roboteers and a safe carry weight. Same with the height, they don't want you walking around with a top heavy robot.

I'll guess that you will get a reprimand if you try to move it off field not folded up.

But as with all things rules and Chief Delphi, what I, or anyone else here thinks isn't important. Put a Q&A question in and get a firm answer. Telling the LRI when you get disqualified that "Foster said we were OK" will at best make them laugh. And I'm not really that funny in that situation.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Rule T6.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

On Team [REDACTED]'s robot the fork lift arms do come off. You can see one of them being removed when it gets a mock inspection here. http://wp.me/p5y54b-21

As far as how the transport dimensions will be checked/inforced this season I wish I could give an answer but I was not able to attend LRI training this season so I have to wait until all of the documents are posted. In the mean time maybe Big Al or one of the LRI's who attended training can answer that question.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Hmmm, all that required ballast wt. strapped into the rear (I saw why earlier in the Ri3D done test vid), but you may just want to use some of that avail. ballast wt. to create a metal or wooden cover of some kind to go over that plastic air tank....I can just see a Tote stack falling from 60+ inches high, onto a fully charged tank, and the explosive power there would not be very pretty if that tank was somehow ruptured.

Personally...added frame boxing in the rear and a top over those precious electronics sure couldn't/wouldn't hurt much either. (I know, just 3 sleepless days from release to completion is really tough)...You are, storing those gripper extensions somewhere inside the Robot during transport configuration right? I missed them putting them inside the 24"X48"X78" Transport config., before the Robot Inspector measured everything up). Great job overall Team REDACTED. "If it stacks, and drives, it surely plays!"
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RE: Protusions

All everyone has to figure out is how to store whatever protusions that will be outside that 24"X48"X78" in game mode, into the 24X46X78 transport config. cube or box (it does not have to fold up, you can also remove pcs., and as long as all can be installed, and removed with hand tools (including battery operated hand tools), in 1 minute or less total, both right before and after a match "ON THE FIELD ONLY" (1 min. once placed on the field, 1 minute before going off the field), -there are gates to enter & exit the field. Reminder that includes when going to/from "ALL PRACTICE FIELDS TOO."

Then, figure out how to store all those things somehow inside those dimensions internally, or externally on the robot on hooks, shelves, or whatever. (If your robot is already 23 7/8" X 47 7/8" X 67 7/8" then you better be storing all removed pcs. inside the bot during transport mode)...Just not in human hands walking beside the robot, as that would usually be outside that cube/box dimensions. (It will help you not forget pcs. in the pits that way also, if you ALWAYS attach those pcs. to your robot).

That nifty super duper 6 Tote stacking elevator you designed, simply won't work very well if those fork extensions are left in the pits. But, if hanging right there on the back of the elevator on hooks or better yet..."Remove before Flight" red flagged push type release pins inserted through the pcs into correctly sized drilled holes...You'll know right where to find them, when you really need em'.
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They will, according to a Q&A already, be warning those that violate the Transport Config. Rule, between pit and field's (including in Queing), and may if repeated instances of warnings or serious violations, Yellow or Red card repeated or serious offenders.

So, simply figure it out during the build & before bagging please. We all depend on each of us doing so. (You get carded, we all get aftected too). Everyone needs to help remind each other in this no W-L-T average QA points era.

I'm sure while fully in your 10' X10' pit box, you can put it back into match mode (as long as you keep it out of the aisles and safe for all concerned). I can also imagine that some won't actually be able to even do that either, if they go really overboard, due to no ON FIELD Width X Length LIMITATIONS, and anything but the 78" Height Maximum Limit.

Just dont forget, from your pit area to Competition or Practice FIELD's....(Includes everywhere else at the event, including the Queing areas)....Transport mode only. (Of course that would also exclude Inspection, IF requested, to go to "Field Play Mode", then back to Transport Config. Mode).

On the 2 (or more), fields, and in your pit box, Play Mode config. is OK...For many to most! (That, we'll see, and remains to be seen).

I just can't wait to see that 1 or more -78" high X bookuu wide & long "sky crane," that asks if they can encroach the airspace of at least 3 or more pit spaces, so they can just test or repair something real quick, and it opens horizontally from folding like an easy up shelter! :D

Q&A said, The TRANSPORT Configuration checker method, is still TBA.

But like he said above...What we say here isn't OFFICIAL...Read the RULES, check the UPDATES often, & check the Q&A often, then use the Q&A to ask questions, if the answers are not already found there or you do not understand something.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

How about small protrusions like bolt heads etc. that have been allowed in the past. I don't see the exception in the rules this year.

Unless I'm missing something, this means that if we use the kit frame then we have to cut the front and back rails about 1" smaller than 28" to get the axle bolt heads inside the envelope. (for narrow configuration).

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

You are correct, there are no exemptions for bolt heads and the like this year.

As guidance, previously, when we had similar width/length limits for the robot those were absolute limits. The robot had to fit in a rigid sizing box, and a bolt sticking over could be enough to keep you out of the box. Back then, it was common guidance to build 1" under in every dimension to ensure you would fit in the box.

The question is, how will this be treated this year? Personally, I would err on the side of caution and build my robot a little undersized. That way you will be guaranteed not to have an issue. And if you do have a bolt head sticking out just a little too far? I find prayer and a chocolate covered gift to the inspector* does wonders :P


*bribes don't actually work. I would personally accept the chocolate, eat it, then send Al over to perform the inspection :D

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

I predict there will be many teams who show up with a kitbot with the bolt heads sticking out this year. FIRST may want to consider a blog post/Update that covers this issue, as I know I'd be really sad if I were a rookie team having to cut up my robot when I got to the competition.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Perhaps having to do that will teach them to read the rules next time, eh? Hard lesson, but effective.

As Jon stated (as per Q&A) there are not exceptions for bolt heads and the like.

My advice to teams is to build to 27 x 41 x 77. Will an extra inch really make the robot work any better??

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Please keep in mind that the transport dimensions are absolute - unlike recent years which were a somewhat subjective perimeter. The allowance for bolt heads has specifically been ruled out (they do count towards the size limit). In the years before the switch to a perimeter rule, they had an inspection box that the robot had to fit in - bolts and all. It was an unbiased pass/fail test. I have seen teams grinding welds and replacing bolts with rivets to get that last 0.1 inch off so that they fit into the box.

Please design your robot to be at least 0.5in smaller than the transport limits to allow for tolerance of assembly and the inspection box.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

I'd encourage FIRST to consider a scaled up version of the laser sizing box I built for use at our VEX tournaments.

It is brutally effective... and quick. http://www.vexforum.com/showthread.p...t=laser+sizing

But more likely there will be a more traditional sizing box.

Jason

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

When I read "laser sizing box", I imagined a machine that uses lasers to shave off any offending bits of the robot.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

The current official ruling on how the footprint portion of the sizing will be checked is with a tape outline on the floor. The height will be checked with a tape measure. I can see a plumb bob being used in the case of robots that are in a "mushroom" shape in the transport configuration.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

You would be surprised how much an extra inch would have helped us this year. One more inch would have made a pretty drastic change in our robot.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

The first year of the frame perimeter rule, a team showed up with a 38x28 robot. They couldn't compete, because they couldn't reconfigure it within the timeframe of the competition.

To the team's credit, when it was determined hopeless, they helped other teams with lesser problems.

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

I had two of those, one at each of the events I was LRI. Was caught them quick, have them dedicated inspector help, and managed to get them in the field that weekend. It was very tough, and they did little more than drive around, but it was a valuable learning experience for them!

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

Except for G7-C:

Re: PROTRUSIONS QUESTION
 

So how does Al feel about chocolate? :D