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-   -   G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132579)

EricLeifermann 10-01-2015 18:12
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared (Post 1425782)
How is this enforceable? It seems difficult to prove that the tote never touches the chute and the robot at the same time.
It depends on where your robot is positioned in regards to the chute...

some teams might want to be very close as to were they basically take the tote from the chute before it hits the floor.

I also agree these contradictory rulings and overkill safety measures are ridiculous. The tote barely fits in the chute as is, plus the door that you can't touch while touching a tote... Who is going to be able to reach in and touch a robot????

Arpan 10-01-2015 18:15
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
This ruling makes the game infinitely harder. Imagine 2013 with a rule like this - every chapionship winning robot's main method of taking frisbees would have been illegal.

I hope this rule is updated/clarified/changed.

Cory 10-01-2015 18:19
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared (Post 1425782)
How is this enforceable? It seems difficult to prove that the tote never touches the chute and the robot at the same time.
That's the problem...it will be completely unenforceable in a consistent manner. As Jared noted, as long as a robot doesn't protrude through the chute there is no reason for this interpretation of the rule to exist.

Now it will be a judgement call that will be different for every ref when it could easily just be determined by "was the robot inside the chute or not?". That would have required no judgment and there would be no issue.

This is going to create a huge problem for the average team that was planning on human loading their robot...it's not clear that a robot can human load, period, without letting the tote fall completely to the floor without touching the robot at all in the process. Plus as written, a noodle cannot be transferred directly to a robot or put into a can that a robot is holding. Surely this is not what the GDC intended?

This opened a huge can of worms that I hope the GDC prematurely responded to without considering all the implications of their response.

Ernst 10-01-2015 18:30
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1425791)
That's the problem...it will be completely unenforceable in a consistent manner. As Jared noted, as long as a robot doesn't protrude through the chute there is no reason for this interpretation of the rule to exist.

Now it will be a judgement call that will be different for every ref when it could easily just be determined by "was the robot inside the chute or not?". That would have required no judgment and there would be no issue.

This is going to create a huge problem for the average team that was planning on human loading their robot...it's not clear that a robot can human load, period, without letting the tote fall completely to the floor without touching the robot at all in the process. Plus as written, a noodle cannot be transferred directly to a robot or put into a can that a robot is holding. Surely this is not what the GDC intended?

This opened a huge can of worms that I hope the GDC prematurely responded to without considering all the implications of their response.
Emphasis mine.

I wonder if that was the intention? By the end of 2013, some human players could load a full set of frisbees in a few seconds. By adding all the barriers that slow down human loading, the GDC is adding another tradeoff between picking up from the floor and human loading. If human loading didn't have the gate or the "control" requirement it would clearly be the quicker, easier, more consistent way to load totes. All of the limitations make the choice much less obvious, especially considering how good some of the Ri3D intakes were and how much time teams have to further develop those designs, come up with their own, and train drivers.

cglrcng 10-01-2015 18:37
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by linzerin (Post 1425727)
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...-held-by-robot

Using a human player to feed litter into the container is legal per Q&A 34.
______________________________
Those 2 different questions & answers and G27 surely "seem" to conflict a little bit. (But I'm not the expert!) We'll take it as answered in Q&A 34. And of course in relation to TOTES, as answered in the other Q&A question 83 also.

I'm just glad others will test this in week 1, and we won't be. A litter "soft pool noodle" isn't a real safety risk though touching an RC, that is touching or held by a robot, a Tote surely would be with precious hands on the Tote Chute Door Handle. DISABLED ROBOTS are ABSOLUTELY not any fun! (Neither are ripped off Tote Chutes and Chute doors. EG: Robot grabs onto Tote half way out of the chute, robot lifts tote w/ elevator, Tote Chute is in trouble. As is Human player holding that tote chute door handle methinks!)
________________________
G27 ROBOTS and anything they control, e.g. a TOTE, may not contact anything outside the FIELD.

VIOLATION: Offending ROBOT will be DISABLED.

Blue Box: Please be conscious of REFEREES and FIELD staff working around the ARENA who may be in close proximity to your ROBOT.


"Isn't it always the way in our world that "LITTER causes all the problems?".....Simple wipe out LITTER...Just CHOOSE TO RECYCLE,...and RUSH IT PLEASE!"

cglrcng 10-01-2015 18:39
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Imagine that!...TNA would have stopped all this......LM_O.:rolleyes:

Madison 10-01-2015 18:44
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglrcng (Post 1425808)
Imagine that!...TNA would have stopped all this......LM_O.:rolleyes:
Except that scoring noodles in containers was always going to be worth more points than TNA and always would've been the preferred methods of scoring for teams that were capable.

cadandcookies 10-01-2015 18:46
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
I'll hold my opinions until Q&A clears this up, which I'd anticipate within a week at most.

Tote loading concerns me a little bit-- but as others have mentioned, I doubt this is the intent of the GDC and think they'll clear this up soon enough.

Noodle loading a bin really doesn't concern me. When we were practicing this in Ri3D, our human player was able to load a bin into an untouched tote in under 5 seconds with little to no practice. Get good at placing those bins and feeding the noodle, and I'd anticipate this can be lowered even more even without a robot holding it. Of course, I'd hope for robots holding bins being fed pool noodles to be legal-- I think this would get teams to second or sub-second times for feeding noodles with a good human player and practiced robot, but ultimately it just changes up the variables a little bit in terms of time optimization.

cglrcng 10-01-2015 18:49
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1425715)
As long as the robot is not controlling the noodle as it comes out the chute it should be okay. Ask on Q&A though just in case.
That answer means you can't grab the tote from the chute midway.
The video was quite specific. It showed Enter Tote in Chute...MOVE HANDS AWAY....one hand on chute door handle, lift, Tote slides onto field.

Enter another, release, and it will stack 2...pick up Totes off of floor with Robot after capping RC w/ hand fed Litter...Go stack it....Easy Peasy.

EricLeifermann 10-01-2015 18:51
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglrcng (Post 1425817)
The video was quite specific. It showed Enter Tote in Chute...MOVE HANDS AWAY....one hand on chute door handle, lift, Tote slides onto field.

Enter another, release, and it will stack 2...pick up Totes off of floor with Robot after capping RC w/ hand fed Litter...Go stack it....Easy Peasy.
That would be awesome if the totes actually land right side up but i think i'm averaging about 95% that it ends up on its short side....

cglrcng 10-01-2015 18:52
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
I was only kidding. I hated the thought of TNA. (Took the fun out of the game).

Paul Copioli 10-01-2015 18:58
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1425771)
This game had some of the most straightforward and easy to understand (and therefore enforce) rules of any FRC game in recent times. This ruling undoes all of that...

1) "Control" is not given a definition in the glossary, so who knows how this will be called in practice...

2) I hope you are planning on floor loading totes, because this effectively outlaws most HP-to-robot transfers that don't involve the tote touching the floor (depending on the definition of "control").

3) If your human player (or partner) accidentally gets a noodle lodged in your robot while poking it through the litter chute, you are disabled. Additionally, if a noodle is "controlled" by a can that is "controlled" by the robot, am I violating G27?

4) The design of the litter chute and tote chute, along with the human player rules (ex. G6 and G6-1) already provide TWO layers of defense against robot-to-human contact. Do we really need a third?

Regardless of how the GDC feels about this issue, further clarification (at the very least, a definition for "controlling" a game piece) is necessary. I hope they will revisit this ruling and provide an exception to controlling objects in the chutes as long as the robot itself does not enter them. This would totally remove subjectivity from the equation and is clearly preferable to having to come up with an arbitrary ontology of allowed interactions with totes and noodles (ex. active rollers vs. passive rollers vs. clamping game objects vs. a sloped piece of lexan...)
Jared said it all. I was really impressed by the clarity of the rules ... until this.

The chute, chute door, and human contacting rules seem to cover safety so why the rule? So a robot can't grab a tote while it is halfway out the chute? that's seems silly to me.

The human will NOT be touching the tote because they have to be holding the door up so what is the harm? I hope they at least explain why.

Paul

PS - This is why I wait for Team Updates and don't really read the Q & A unless I have too. I still remember 2002 ...

cglrcng 10-01-2015 18:58
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1425820)
That would be awesome if the totes actually land right side up but i think i'm averaging about 95% that it ends up on its short side....
Are you using the real field chute (with the actual as built official field construction materials), or the wooden Team Field elements. Theirs in the vid...(Don't know how many takes it took them though, to call the tote chute video cut "a wrap" either), landed top up in perfect shape and ready to receive tote#2.

Knocking them down from on end, or righting upside down totes, would be a real game killer.:rolleyes:

Kevin Leonard 10-01-2015 19:04
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
This whole thing seems like ridiculous overkill. Human Loading vs. Floor loading is an important tradeoff this year, and this ruling seems to force the choice of floor loading and ruin some potentially creative designs.

I hope the GDC changes this ruling or clarifies it to allow for creativity in design this year.

Travis Schuh 10-01-2015 21:34
Re: G28, Q&A 83, and Noodling a Can Without Touching it
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 1425827)
PS - This is why I wait for Team Updates and don't really read the Q & A unless I have too. I still remember 2002 ...
Ok, I am going to bite (my search skills are not up to this). What happened in the Q & A in 2002 for those of us who were not around then?

-Travis


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