Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
 

Posted by Roly Anderson at 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST


Engineer on team #188, Blizzard, from Woburn Collegiate and Ontario Power Generation.



I watched all the matches at the West Michigan regional and noticed that approximately 8 or 10 times that the bridge came off the fulcrum. From my vantage point, I could NOT determine why it happens.
Dean was there, right in front of the bridge, when it came off as the announcer was saying "The bridge has come off its fulcrum again, I don't know if they will be able to balance it"

In my opinion, in the interest of fairness and a better game, FIRST should (as gracious professionals themselves), do one of two things:

1. Fix the bridges, by increasing the size of the L channel, so the bridge cannot come off. or......

2. Stop the match when it happens and replay the match, or at the very least, stop the clock and put the bridge back on and finish the game. After all, the referees don't appear to be real busy "refereeing" or watching for infractions of the rules this year, and could watch for that.

Another thing:
When dividing up the teams for the divisions at nationals, I think FIRST should split up the teams equally between the divisions according to their experience, as follows:
Lets say for example that there are 100 teams with 3 years as a registered first team, 25 would be in each division. If there are 120 rookie teams, then put 30 in each division etc. They could even indicate on the divisional team lists, how many years experience each team has!

Comments?

BTW, thanks to Colleen T190 for all her sensible, logical, intelligent posts on this forum, it was from reading her posts that I decided to write on this forum, rather than just read it!

Tomorrow, the first (i.e. original) FIRST Canadian team heads off to Ypsilanti to participate in the Great Lakes Regional, see you all there!!

Re: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
 

Posted by Chris at 03/20/2001 9:36 AM EST


Student on team #69, HYPER Team 69 Quincy Public Schools Gillette , from North Quincy High and The Gillette Company.


In Reply to: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
Posted by Roly Anderson on 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST:



The randomness of the picking is yet to be determined!!!!

For know we all should believe that everyone has a fair chance at getting into any of the 4 div.

CHRIS

Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum = broken field
 

Posted by Lewis Sussman at 03/20/2001 10:43 AM EST


Coach on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon NH HS, Hanover NH HS, Hartford VT HS and CRREL/CREARE.


In Reply to: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
Posted by Roly Anderson on 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST:



I agree. I doubt that Woodie/Dean et.al. planned the game to be played with a dislocated bridge. If other parts of the playing field are not in accordance with the original specs the referees do something about it. For example if a goal is broken, which I saw several times at the J&J regional, it is replaced. Granted, this happens at the end of the match but the intent is that the game should be played with a functioning goal. Suppose in last year's game the bar collapsed while robots were hanging? Would that have been considered to be an acceptible part of the game? My feeling is that a bridge that is frequently dislocated is "broken," improperly designed and not a fully functional bridge and should be fixed or replaced. Teams that spend all the time, money and effort to build a robot to play the game the way it was presented to us at kickoff shouldn't have to deal with wide variations in the way the playing field functions. We played in a match in which the bridge was off the fulcrum and tried to push it down with no success, lifting our bot up instead of pushing the bridge down. This definitely affected the outcome of the match. I can't imagine that with all of the engineering talent available to FIRST that they couldn't come up with an easy fix here. They should consider this a challenge from the first community. The gauntlet has been thrown!!

Re: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
 

Posted by Dan at 03/20/2001 12:33 PM EST


Other on team #247, da Bears, from Berkley High and PICO/Wisne Design.


In Reply to: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
Posted by Roly Anderson on 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST:



Our team was responsible for lifting the bridge off its fulcrum more than once. We've made improvements so it will not happen again!!

We simply hit the vertical bar holding the weights so hard, that our arm rode up the bar, hit the weights and lifted the bridge. On our practice field when that happened, our weights gave way and were launched into the air (we didn't secure them like FIRST) so we never knew we had enough power to move the bridge until the regional.

-Dan
da Bears

: I watched all the matches at the West Michigan regional and noticed that approximately 8 or 10 times that the bridge came off the fulcrum. From my vantage point, I could NOT determine why it happens.
: Dean was there, right in front of the bridge, when it came off as the announcer was saying "The bridge has come off its fulcrum again, I don't know if they will be able to balance it"
:
: In my opinion, in the interest of fairness and a better game, FIRST should (as gracious professionals themselves), do one of two things:

: 1. Fix the bridges, by increasing the size of the L channel, so the bridge cannot come off. or......
:
: 2. Stop the match when it happens and replay the match, or at the very least, stop the clock and put the bridge back on and finish the game. After all, the referees don't appear to be real busy "refereeing" or watching for infractions of the rules this year, and could watch for that.

: Another thing:
: When dividing up the teams for the divisions at nationals, I think FIRST should split up the teams equally between the divisions according to their experience, as follows:
: Lets say for example that there are 100 teams with 3 years as a registered first team, 25 would be in each division. If there are 120 rookie teams, then put 30 in each division etc. They could even indicate on the divisional team lists, how many years experience each team has!
:
: Comments?
:
: BTW, thanks to Colleen T190 for all her sensible, logical, intelligent posts on this forum, it was from reading her posts that I decided to write on this forum, rather than just read it!

: Tomorrow, the first (i.e. original) FIRST Canadian team heads off to Ypsilanti to participate in the Great Lakes Regional, see you all there!!

comments on both points...
 

Posted by Nate Smith at 03/20/2001 2:41 PM EST


Other on team #66, Frostbite, from Willow Run High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
Posted by Roly Anderson on 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST:



: I watched all the matches at the West Michigan regional and noticed that approximately 8 or 10 times that the bridge came off the fulcrum. From my vantage point, I could NOT determine why it happens.
: Dean was there, right in front of the bridge, when it came off as the announcer was saying "The bridge has come off its fulcrum again, I don't know if they will be able to balance it"
:
: In my opinion, in the interest of fairness and a better game, FIRST should (as gracious professionals themselves), do one of two things:

: 1. Fix the bridges, by increasing the size of the L channel, so the bridge cannot come off. or......
:
: 2. Stop the match when it happens and replay the match, or at the very least, stop the clock and put the bridge back on and finish the game. After all, the referees don't appear to be real busy "refereeing" or watching for infractions of the rules this year, and could watch for that.

As it seems like I often do with various things here, I disagree with the comments made re. a bridge coming off the center barrier being a "broken field." Specificially in the updates, there were several questions asked about this situation...specifically Q/A 15...

Their answer(in part): Unseating the bridge from the 4x6 base is not expected to be "easy" due to the dimensions of the angle brackets and the weight of the bridge. Intentionally unseating the bridge will be considered "damage" to the field and lead to disqualification of the alliance. Unintentional unseating of the bridge would not be penalized, but it would be impossible to "balance" the bridge because it would not be supported exclusively by the base.

SO, they never said it could not be done, just that they didn't expect it to be easy. While we may have proved them wrong there, changing such an important rule to the game(importance determined by performance thus far) after the last week of regionals(with the last set of regionals already being set up, it's really too late for a rules change in time for them), could cause quite a contraversy due to the fact, as some have mentioned, that the outcome of matches, and possibly of tournaments, could be affected.

: Another thing:
: When dividing up the teams for the divisions at nationals, I think FIRST should split up the teams equally between the divisions according to their experience, as follows:
: Lets say for example that there are 100 teams with 3 years as a registered first team, 25 would be in each division. If there are 120 rookie teams, then put 30 in each division etc. They could even indicate on the divisional team lists, how many years experience each team has!

As one with experience on the new scoring system, I can say that the system does not know how many years any given team has been in the competition, and therefore has no way to determine pairings for divisions based on this. Never having run the division pairing portion of the system, I can not say how it is done with 100% certainty(and the computer I'm on right now doesn't have the right version of Access to look at the code,) but my assumption is that it is a completely random method.


Nate

Fix the bridge, please
 

Posted by Chris Hibner at 03/20/2001 4:45 PM EST


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.


In Reply to: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
Posted by Roly Anderson on 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST:



During the West Michigan Regional, the bridge came off of the felcrum during two of our matches. Both times it was just from a robot towing a goal to the other side of the field. I don't see how this can (or should) be considered a legitimate part of the competition. If the bridge is coming off just from driving over it, something needs to be done about it.

One thing to note about the bridge at the WMR: the angles were much closer together than the drawing indicates. There should be a decent size gap between the angle and the 4x6 when the bridge is balanced. The angles on the bridge at the WMR were basically against the 4x6 in the balanced position. It looked like they just put the angles on the bridge, dropped in a 4x6 to space them, and then fastned the angles to the bridge. I hope the bridge in Ypsi is a little better.

Re: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
 

Posted by Carolyn Duncan at 03/21/2001 4:08 PM EST


Student on team #495, The Pack, from Jamestown High School and VBEP/Raytheon/Saic.


In Reply to: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
Posted by Roly Anderson on 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST:



: When dividing up the teams for the divisions at nationals, I think FIRST should split up the teams equally between the divisions according to their experience, as follows:
: Lets say for example that there are 100 teams with 3 years as a registered first team, 25 would be in each division. If there are 120 rookie teams, then put 30 in each division etc. They could even indicate on the divisional team lists, how many years experience each team has!
:
: Comments?
I agree with you on this point. I also think that in addition to this the regional events for the teams this year should be taken into account. For example: a team goes to 3 regionals and plays in 18 matches and another team goes to 1 regional and plays in 6 matches. Who has more experience? Even if 2 teams each go to 1 regional and one team has 6 matches and the other 11 there is still and experience issue. Just a thought. Also, about the bridge: something was definately wrong that the bridge came off the fulcrum that many times. At VCU that didn't happen at all. Something should definately be done about that.
:Carolyn
Team 495

About the division of teams at nationals . . .
 

Posted by Billy Mallard at 03/24/2001 10:20 PM EST


Student on team #254, the Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Prep and NASA.


In Reply to: Bridge Coming off the Fulcrum ...
Posted by Roly Anderson on 03/20/2001 8:55 AM EST:



: When dividing up the teams for the divisions at nationals, I think FIRST should split up the teams equally between the divisions according to their experience, as follows:
: Lets say for example that there are 100 teams with 3 years as a registered first team, 25 would be in each division. If there are 120 rookie teams, then put 30 in each division etc. They could even indicate on the divisional team lists, how many years experience each team has!

I assume that the proposed division of teams according to years of experience is in the spirit of making each section more or less even. But it would seem a bit unfair to automatically assume rookie teams to be less skilled than any other veteran team.

So i propose that, rather than dividing the sections according to years of involvement, they be divided according to the team's average score for all the regionals which they have attended. Now, i'm not sure whether FIRST keeps track of this, but it's an idea for future use. As far as i can tell, it's a good idea. Any thoughts?