Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I wanted to know what the likely hood of a (single) team being able to grab all 4 bins from the step in auto. Is any team here thinking of doing it and is it really required points wise, bearing in mind that if you are to grab these 4 bins your opponents could have a difficult time scoring more points as most of the points come from the bins.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

My original idea was to tether to those center bins in auto and drag em out. But then they made it so container sets could only happen once and the landfill was a volume not an area so it was quickly shot down by the GDC. In my mind you don't need to get all the bins during auto to do well it is just that the bins mean you can do less work and get more points. (once again my opinion)

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I agree someone will be able to do it, it may be something like the auto goalie last year, I only ever saw one that did it really well last year, I could see maybe 2 or 3 be able to pull off the 4 this year, and I would put money at least one of those teams is in Einstein.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

It's not even worth setting a prop bet on any team doing this. Heck, it's not even worth doing that for some specific teams. I'm more interested to see how my hypotheses generated from these questions pan out in competitive trials:
a) Who is going to complete it in competition first?
b) Who is going to do it the fastest?
c) How are teams who are already looking at super high levels of play preparing these mechanisms to deal with more insane torque than what this maneuver generates uncontested?
d) How many teams are actually going to try for it?

The idea of a 4-can grabber in auto seemed like something teams would roll out at their second events or championships, but now I wouldn't be shocked to see some yahoos pulling it in a random week 1 regional.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

It would be a great mechanism to have on your robot even if its the only thing your robot could do. Many powerhouse teams that can stack like crazy would want a bot that can reliably grab those 4 bins in playoffs and then have them ready to cap stacks

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

We've talked about a 4 bin grabber on our team, and we think that very competitive teams will have this ability. Being able to limit the opposing team to only 3 recycling containers while giving yourself as many as you could possibly use may prove to be extremely helpful.

Remember, the green container triples the value of the stack, and if your opponent has less than half the opportunities to triple one of their stack, they're not going to want to waste this sparse resource on a low stack. If you've got tons of containers, you can cap all your stacks. That said, you still need three very good robots to get to the point where any more than three green containers provides a huge benefit.

Personally, I expect to see a lot of container grabbing robots. A single green container adds 24 points to a 6 stack (or 21 to a 5 stack), which is worth more than a 20 point stacked toted set in autonomous mode. Even if your alliance only uses one out of the four containers, it can still be worth it!

By the time we get to championships, I don't think it's unreasonable to see a multi-container arm against a single container arm, or even two multi-container arms against each other. If robots are competitive enough, the fastest container grabber will be an extremely sought after robot.

If robots were extremely competitive, the game would be decided by the first second of autonomous mode, and the alliance that grabbed the containers first would win.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I think that this contest will be decided on bagup day, not in the first second of auto mode.

If your robot can latch onto the containers in 2 seconds, and the opposing robot takes 4 seconds, because of number of drive motors, gearing etc, The will have lost before they even showed up.

That being said, if 2 robots have very similar grab times and are facing head to head, I am personally very much looking forward to seeing these robots rip each other's arms in autonomous mode.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I privately considered doing this, but I knew that my team would be against doing it. Too boring for them to build a just-can robot.
A giant fold-out/fold-in polycarb sheet that begins the match out would be enough to drop down onto 4 cans and grab them. I ddon't think any team could grab it faster than that, or at least grab it and pull it with more power than your drivetrain could.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

We're doing a container grabber this year, and it's actually not that difficult. It's just some PVC pipe, and to keep the thing from wobbling all over the place, we've ran some steel cables from the end of the PVC to various points on the robot. We've over tightened the cables so that the PVC bends a few degrees near the end, resulting in more stiffness.

At the end of auto, surgical tubing will retract it all back into the robot.

It's simple and light enough that I predict teams will be adding these arms onto their robot for the championship.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

well we are planning once the mechanism is done to grab two at a time, in auto swing them backwards into the auto zone then move to the left and grab the other two and swing them as-well into the auto hopefully within the 15 seconds the way we calculated it is possible with our setup. one small problem we are hoping we can manage with is have two containers 54" off the frame in the same direction while moving could causing tipping. but we can fold them up to center the weight for long distance travel, but by doing that it pretty much eliminates our 15 seconds

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Grabbing recycling containers off the step in auto is not a primary goal of ours. However, we will have some capability there... We almost certainly will be able to grab one and, with a little time, might have a good play for a second. Basically, we'll be able to grab any game piece we want, but, to get to those on the step, we'll need to push landfill totes out of the way. Just how much will we be able to do in auto will be better known once the robot is finished.

As the mentor who leads scouting and tactics, I would be watching robots with long grabbing arms like this very closely. It seems to me that the level of precision necessary to be successful would make the construction of such a robot very, very difficult. Moreover, there would be some considerable risks involved in its usage:
* If something is ever-so-slightly misaligned, I could see those long arms knocking the RC's off the step in the wrong direction.
* Again, with a misalignment, should an arm reach too far and contact another robot, it could lead to a red card. (Ref discretion - a hook reaching too far could be seen as "strategic" or "egregious" if it gives a an advantage or affects the other robot.
* There would certainly be concerns with center-of-gravity. How would the robot react if another robot were to grab the same container at (or just after) your robot and pull? Could your robot fall over?

All that said, such a robot could be the ideal partner for ours... I would be watching such a robot very, very closely through preliminary rounds and wanting to know: Did they do it so well that it is the ultimate partner? or, did they miss a step, causing it to be a high risk to be a veritable disaster?

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Did I miss an update? When did FIRST add bins to game?

Totes: Yellow and Gray
Recycle Containers: RC for short.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I was thinking of two options for autonomous:

1) drag your RC to the Autozone, and go after a RC on the step, and bring it to the autozone.

2) Stack the 3 totes and bring them to the Autozone (assuming that the other 2 RC's are out of the way.

Assuming that you have 3 bots that can do that, you have the max autonomous points. The rules don't say which 3 RC's need to be in the Autozone to get the points.

My plan was to use a cowcatcher to get through the landfill to get the RC. I don't see how one robot has enough time to get more than 1 or 2 RC's and get back to the autozone.

I discounted the ability to extend over the Totes in the Landfill to get to the RC's. Seems like too much of a single purpose component.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

We usually call them "bins" and "totes". Occasionally "cans" but never just RCs. Too confusing/ unintuitive.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Teams will do it. You "just" need to get a huge bar behind them and pull. The real question is who will do it while keeping at least 3 of the bins upright... That's the challenge.

I think teams that can get a single bin from the edges off the platform in auto will pair up with a team adept at getting two of them from the center in order to try and get that advantage secured.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Chris is right, this is pretty simple science. It's just a mechanism that has to cover a 20 foot span, pick up 4 heavy objects including two 10 feet away from the center of the robot, then somehow swinging them off the step without
a) clipping them on totes in the landfill
b) tipping over
c) getting ripped apart or dragged over the step by a friend on the other side of the step who wants them just a little more than you
d) keeping them in the field of play
e) keeping them upright

It's just that easy. Pretty sure even a team working in Indian Cave in Nebraska is gonna be rolling up with one of these :rolleyes:

Oh, you want to take them to the auto zone too for another 8 points? Ok. (You just secured an up to 120 point advantage for your team. I'd say don't get greedy, but I'm not a cop. I can't tell you what to do.)

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

interesting for lower resourced teams like ours! Got any pics or plans you'd share with us? Please drop me a PM if you could do so.
Thanks!
Steve Miller
Coach 3355
Purple Vipers

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Can I ask where the requirement for 'upright' is coming from? Convenience?

also, f) not pulling at G18. Which, particularly once you're known for this move, seems very, very likely.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I assume they don't want to tip them over because most teams likely won't be able to manipulate a tipped over Recycling Container.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Actually manipulating a tipped over container is easier than an up rite container. Any Farmer can show you how to do it.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Not really a requirement (in my opinion), just things people think are simple/given tasks that make up this routine.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I hope no one has a device stronger and faster than yours that grabs any of the containers. A giant extended PVC arm sounds pretty brittle to me.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

The RCs are too easy to knock over to not be able to handle them on their sides. And allowing yourself to knock them over makes a mechanism like this far easier to design.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

The only matches where it would be legitimately beneficial to grab all four totes would be starving the opponents containers would actually cap their score, and where your alliance would be able to handle the 24 points lost from being unable to noodle the bins.

My (relatively bold) prediction is that it will probably play the same role as the goalie pole last year. A few teams will design for it from the beginning, and most of them will not be super effective. Then, probably during weeks 5-7 of the competition season, a simple, light, and fast solution will be popularized because a powerhouse team designed one that works like a dream (similar to minibot designs in 2011, or the introduction of Cheesy Vision in 2014). Come district and world championships, a number of strong teams will be using this solution. Alliances will be built solely off the ability to grab the bins, and some of these will find their way to the Einstein fields.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Its like 4.5 inches thick schedule 80 PVC. Our latch mechanism yanks the container back when it engages, and our plan is to get their fastest.

That said, I do share your concern and we will have spares.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

It sounds pretty easy to fix to me. At any rate, once they de-limb you they have to content with your giant shattered pvc poles still clinging to the bins. Seems like an effective strategy to neutralize all of the cans.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

And a great way to get penalised. I genuinely wish you good luck on the endeavor. Make it work. Prove me wrong.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I envision horrific carnage when a 4-RC robot grabs their RCs and a single-RC robot grabs onto one of those RCs, and torques the 4-RC robot into oblivion.

Grabbing multiple RC's does seem like a very attractive proposition, but I think that the right single-RC robot will be able to effectively counter this move either by discouragement or by disrupting the initial grab.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Only if they're faster. Dropping PVC arms down is pretty fast and could possibly be comparable to a tape measure setup.
If you have yo unfold, forget it. They'll be gone before you can grab one.
Once the can has moved, a tape measure will have a really hard time getting it.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Why are you making the assumption that the only viable counter-mechanism is a tape measure? Or a PVC arm?

Have you considered the possibility that a robust, strong, arm could grab a can? One that can deploy in <1s, even with the landfill totes.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I'm very curious to see how this all plays out, especially with flimsy mechanisms and non-traction drive systems.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Our arm will be comprised primarily of 1x1x1/16 6061 square tubing and .100 aluminum sheet metal. I am optimistic that it won't be too flimsy...

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Who gets to determine if said mechanism is safe?
If said mechanism is safe, what if it was <.5s?
What about <0.25s?
What about<0.1s?

There could be a lot of energy involved in moving a "robust, strong, arm" that quickly.

Of course, if you ever come up against a faster arm, the solution is: more energy. :) What an interesting dilemma we all face.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Thankfully there is an awesome spreadsheet for determining which motors and gearboxes to use to make the arm move that fast!

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

I suppose that the LRI will get to determine if the mechanism is safe or not. Quickly-moving, robust, arms have been a staple of many FRC games, so I would note that precedent for similar arms exists.

There will certainly be a lot of energy involved in moving such an arm, just as there will be in any mechanism that can quickly manipulate this game's relatively massive scoring pieces.

And, of course, any driving robot will contain a whole lot of energy. But generally people seem to ignore that sort of danger because their used to it!

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

What?! Really?! If only I had known... ;)

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

This is a strategy that our team considered and we will have multiple autonomous programs. This won't be our primary strategy, but it may come in handy when playing with high functioning teams who are able to score independently during autonomous.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Does anyone know if you can be touching the recycling bins before autonomous? I'm thinking of an arm that would be hooked onto the handle but not lifting or pulling before the game starts. You could place the robot in the middle open zone and have it reaching over the bins and latched on to the handle or top of the bin. I have looked throughout the rules and can't find anything that wouldn't allow this.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

You cannot start the match extending into the (infinitely tall volume that is) the Landfill.

In other words, you can reach above Cans before auto starts, but not the ones on the Step. (The ones are your side are fine, but they're uncontested.)

You're looking for G7(c) in the manual.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Both the landfill and autonomous zones have been defined as volumes this year (as opposed to an area on the floor), meaning they extend upwards into the space above them. You are not allowed to start the autonomous period inside either the landfill or the auto zone. Since the arm would be hooked onto the handle of the recycling containers on the step, it would pass through the landfill zone and be in violation of G7.

G7 states,
"When placed on the FIELD for a MATCH, each ROBOT must be:
A. in compliance with all ROBOT rules, i.e. it has passed Inspection. For exceptions regarding Practice MATCHES, see
Section 5.2 – Practice MATCHES.
B. fully supported by the floor, SCORING PLATFORM, and/or SCORING PLATFORM ramps on their ALLIANCE’S side of the
FIELD, and
C. completely outside of their AUTO ZONE and LANDFILL ZONE"

Part C of rule G7 is what would prohibit such a strategy (as well as part B depending on if the bin supported the arm before the match started).

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Game Manual 2.1.5: Each LANDFILL ZONE is an infinitely tall volume that extends 4 ft. 3 in. from the edge of the STEP towards their ALLIANCE WALL.

Game Manual 3.2.2 G7: When placed on the FIELD for a MATCH, each ROBOT must be:C. completely outside of their AUTO ZONE and LANDFILL ZONE

So you can't touch the RCs before Auto starts. The entire robot has to be behind the Landfill Zone.

Re: Grabbing 4 Bins from the step in Auto
 

Thanks for the help. I knew it said zones but I couldn't find where it was vertical also. Back to the drawing board!