Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Are we the only team where there are STILL mentors at the beginning of week 4 who have not yet read the rules completely, but insist on wasting student's time arguing with them about their decisions? This happens every year, very tiring....

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

We sometimes have this problem. I suggest dedicating one particular student on the team as "the rule guy/girl" and have them be the say-all as to whether a scenario is legal or not. This way, as long as the rules person does their job right, the mentors have no reason to argue with you about rules, especially if they are incorrect.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

What you talking about I'm always right...
No but on a serious note from a mentors stand point here is what I expect when I walk into a discussion about something two things need to be brought to the table.
1. A level clear head open to different opinions.
2. Examples and information for an idea
Just because an idea is against the rules doesn't mean all information within the idea is invalid. When presented with something that isn't legal hear it out (unless it is of course ridiculous or against what FIRST stands for) then the burden of proof is on you to pull out the rule book point and say something along the lines of "According to the rule book or manual where my finger is pointing I don't think that is an option."
At the same time when you are against an "idea" you are not against the person presenting the idea you are against the idea. Don't make things personal. Regardless of it being a student, a mentor, or a guest coming an idea is an expression and disrespecting that expression is very rude. FIRST is about promoting growth and thought not about making people feel scared and vulnerable for speaking up.
My final bit of thought as a mentor is that I know I joke a lot, but I don't ever know what students are thinking. So when I step up and call myself a mentor I am stepping up to a standard. Everyone who I influence is allowed to hold me to that standard. When a student goes up to me and infront of other students or alone goes "Hey I know what you did there you thought was funny or whatever but it crossed a line..." At that point as someone who takes the position seriously I am all ears.
Conversation is but an ocean where the best ideas sail gently on calm seas not storms of frustration.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

This can sometimes be a problem with new mentors. Our team has a team handbook with team rules for students and mentors to avoid situations like this. It is mandatory for all students to read and understand the game rules. Mentors and volunteers cannot participate in any design/strategy discussions unless they've read the game rules.

It's important to understand that mentors are always trying to do their best to help. Sometimes they are too busy to read the rules or don't understand the importance. I highly recommend that you speak to your team coach and request that he/she speak to the mentors. He/she can provide the mentor(s) with a computer with the game manual loaded, point them to the important sections, and ask them to spend the build session reading. I'm sure that a simple conversation and explanation will resolve this. Good luck!

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

I find this to be a problem with students rather than mentors. It's expected that everyone read the rules on our team.

Bear in mind that if someone proposes an idea outside of the rules, it doesn't mean they haven't read them. Maybe they didn't understand some certain nuance, or misinterpreted some aspect. Rather than be confrontational, suggest you don't believe that their idea is within the rules. It becomes incumbent on that person to show you how it follows the rules, whether that be student or mentor.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

On kickoff day, when we return to the shop, and everyone on the team is present, we do an entire group rule reading using a projector and a student reader volunteer. We sometimes pause for discussions or clarifications. We note ambiguities, if something deserves a Q&A question. This way all of the students and mentors have gone through the rule book at least once. Of course, most of us will revisit the manual many times over for reminders and rule clarification throughout the season.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

I'd bet the house that a majority of the mentors on my team haven't read a majority of the rules. I'd bet lunch with each that I'm the only one who has. <sigh>

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

We learned several years ago that if you don't sit down with everyone at the very beginning of the year and read the rules together, there will always be some people who never read them. The only way to make sure everyone is on the same page is to read the rules as a team, immediately following Kickoff. It segues well into a strategy and scoring discussion anyway.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

What he said. Its the most boring two hours ever, but its incredibly worth it.
Alternatives involve grouping up and having each group read an entire section and then report the rules to everyone else in some sort of condensed but accurate way.

And obviously the team doesn't need to read the whole manual, just the arena and game sections, as well as any game-specific/changed robot rules.

The members who care will read the manual again in their free-time (as they should) but now hopefully everyone has a reasonably accurate understanding of the rules and won't spend build time arguing for/concentrating on something that's illegal*.

(This is not particularly helpful for your current situation)


*unless there is a grey area for troll-bots to squeeze under. :p

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

And tournament. At very least the Qualification Seeding section. It never ceases to surprise me the number of folks who don't understand what you have to do to seed high.

For folks in Districts, I'd also suggest reading how you qualify for DCMP and CMP.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Yup, we do the exact same thing, except it's the following day, and all day brainstorming session. Everyone is required to be at this meeting where we go over all the rules, discuss scenarios, strategies and start to figure out how the team wants to play the game. And eventually a robot design.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Has this information been made available? I remember Frank's Blog mentioning that they're working through the translation from WLT to QA, but I haven't heard of final results.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

A side note on this post is I'm guessing that your team is having trouble on the rule interpretation itself as well. I would suggest when arguments occur bring out the rules and point out why you think whatever situation you are having an issue over is illegal or not. Our team always has an updated copy of the manual open for situations just like the one your team is having. If your mentor or teammates are still having issues over a certain point then first get more people involved from a discussion standpoint in order to get more clarity. If you are still troubled then ask the Q & A which interpretation of the rule is legal. Try not to get so heated over issues like this to the point that it ruins your build season. Remember that mentors are there to help you grow and develop as students, even if you think they are "out to" argue and "get" you*, and that FRC is meant to be a Fun experience and opportunity that you should enjoy.

*I had a personal, and partially shameful, experience like this with a mentor during my Senior and only Student year in FRC. We now are very good friends and now I have the privilege of mentoring her son. Looking at it from both sides of the table will open up you eyes.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Dunno, haven't read the rulebook :P


I don't think it's been released yet, which is somewhat annoying.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Rules, we don't need no stinking Rules.
Speaking for myself, and not all mentors. I read the majority of the rules fully and look for the "Loop-Holes" that may cause confusion later on. As for the Tournament Rules, I'm not usually as well versed on those, but I have at least read them once. My fun as a Mentor is to follow the updates and catch the students who didn't know an update was released.
I have to agree that not all ideas, even if against a rule, are bad ideas. They are just ideas which can't be implimented and the discussion of such must be civil and professional. This is the most important lesson we can teach. As a mentor we all know that in the real world, and it doesn't matter what line of work you're in, there will be disagreements and how you handle them is the most important aspect to how you are preceived and a Professional.

Good Luck, & Have FUN

roger

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

As a mentor helping with the team's robot design and fabrication (and as a sometime Robot Inspector), I make sure I know all the Robot rules. The electrical rules are especially vital for my role as a Control System Advisor. I admit that the Game and Tournament rules are less important to me personally, as I'm not going to be playing the game myself.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Dealing with mentors is tricky - it's a volunteer gig, so you don't have the freedom to demand much that they don't want to do. Respectfully handling disagreements is paramount.
I find the phrase "Show me in the manual where _________ " helpful when I am confident that the rules support my position. At the very least, it will reveal if someone is simply being bullheaded (they won't look in the rules, but will continue arguing). It changes the conversation from arguing on what you remember the rules to be to the actual wording of the rules. This puts you on the track to an answer, rather than on track to the better arguer.

Also I need to mention that while I don't memorize the rules perfectly and don't read them or bother to read them well enough to memorize, what I do memorize is the structuring. When I need to know a rule I look it up and I am able to do so quickly. Generally speaking between that, keeping up with qna and, keeping up with delphi, and reading everytime I think I find a loop hole I eventually get to the point where I am famliar.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

This entire thread bothers me.
If you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be designing a robot. End of story.
We hold the students to this expectation; adults should be held to the same standard.
Ignorance is not an excuse, and misinformation is worse than no information.

Which is completely valid but some mentors do not have the capability to sit down and read the manual in one go due to time constraints. Some students are incapable of reading the game manual effectively. It is one thing to read but understanding is diferent. The information in the manual is useless unless utilized and you can't use what you don't understand. For those mentors in this position my advice would be the same students do your best as long as that happens I won't give flak

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

How I envision your mentors...

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

And yet here it is.
We all know that all mentors and all students won't/can't read all the rules.
Even if you think they should.

However, don't be arguing with those mentors or students who HAVE read the rules unless you can point to a rule that allows what you're arguing about.

Sometimes EGOs get in the way.
It's good to have a great idea, as long as you can back it up (with a rule or a proper engineering practice.. etc).

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

I can't stress this enough. The Tournament is always the first section I read. If your goal is to win an event, you need to understand what it takes to win the event. By reading the Tournament section you learn by what criteria teams are ranked and how matches are win. Once you understand this information, you can read the rest of the rules and start brainstorming strategies to maximize these criteria. FRC changes their ranking criteria regularly enough that it's essential to make yourself aware at the very beginning of every season.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Unless reading the rules as a group is part of the original Day 0 activities, the rules can't be forced upon a mentor. Even then, many mentors simply tune out the strategy discussion and start envisioning devices to play the most obvious parts of the game. In my experiences on my teams and at competition, most mentors don't care about the rules until they hit them.

It's a double-edged sword - not knowing the rules removes the perception of what is "supposed to be" or "what the GDC wants", leading to more creativity or outside-the-box thinking. Yet not knowing the rules has a major impact on a team's success when everything comes together.

Each mentor has a role on our team, and is charged with being the best at that role. Even the build lead does not need to know every Robot rule in order to be effective at his role so long as he has people guiding him along the way. He has personally accepted that some of the things he and the students come up with will have to be modified to fit within the rules, yet that's the double-edged sword/fine line he walks. The student leads are also expected to know the rules that apply to their sub team(s). I fulfill the role of rules/strategy guru for the mentors, and the student leads have their responsibilities for doing the same within their groups (or cross-groups, for some of them).

I think it's important to remember that many mentors have active lives outside of mentoring, even during the 6-week build season. Find a way to work with them in a way that doesn't make their lives harder, especially during that time. Arguing is the probably worst possible thing to do, even if the student/other mentor is technically correct. The best way our team has found to do this is better communication via written drawings or typed documentation (or posting of phone photos of pencil drawings). Most ideas and decisions are compound and constructive on our team, leading to decisions with associated rationale. If someone was out of the loop on Day 2, then there may have been a lot of progress by the time the person returns on Day 3. We simply tell the person to read, follow links to rules, part sources, etc and then re-join the conversation. We have implemented this via an online forum & Drop Box ( maybe Evernote one day).

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

They've finished the district advancement structure, but they haven't published it just yet.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

OUr mentors spend so much time volunteering with the team (and away from their families) that it just does not seem right to demand that they all read the manual and know it well.

However, a working knowledge of the rules is absolutely imperative before robot design commences. Here is how we handle it:
1) We spend most of the first day after kickoff going through the rules and making sure we all understand them.
2) We encourage everybody to study the rules and require it of certain students - such as the drive team.
3) We have one mentor and one students who are the "rules experts." Their primary position in the club is to konw the rules inside-out and to study research any questions that might arise.
4) Before we design any part of the robot, we discuss both the desired functionality and any applicable rules as a group.
5) We nearly always have one of our "rules experts" on hand to clarify anything that might come up.
6) We make sure the mentor who oversees any specific aspect of the robot has a hard copy of the written rules pertaining to that aspect.

All-in-all, this seems to create a group of mentors who can spend their time doing what they love best (helping kids to design robots) who are knowledgeable enough about the rules.

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Long ago on my daughter's team we had a lead mentor who didn't read his email. I was so grateful for those who pasted the email blasts here on CD.

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The longer you've been in FRC, the better this idea gets. You can read through the robot rules and start turning the wheels on some initial strategy ideas based on approaches you took in the past to a game that looks similar, only to realize how meaningless an approach to the game can be because how it wouldn't do squat for your position on the leaderboards. (2006 didn't have a little white bridge that held the same value as a win, iirc)

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

We always have the exact opposite problem. All the mentors read the rules in depth, read all game updates and FAQs.

Only a small handful of students actually do (I polled the team in Week 2 asking how many honestly read the rules, only a few students raised their hands).

We sound like broken records when students keep coming up to us with ideas in WEEK 4 clearly in violation of rules and we just say "Can't do that, Read The Rules!!"

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Everyone should read the rules. It doesn't matter who you are, a mentor, a student, or even a parent helping. If you haven't yet and you are at robotics, spend the time when you are in robotics to do so. There isn't an excuse to not have read the rules if you are at robotics consistently.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

I usually get asked what the updates are when I show up at the shop.



Can't wait for a blank update so I can tell the team that the game has totally changed.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

In the last couple of years there were 1 or 2 updates which were 'blank' towards the end of the season. This year you could allude to the secret noodle endgame with it :D

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

To avoid this we don't let any students contribute to strategy or design discussion until they pass a rules quiz (80%), written by mentors and senior students, administered once per day until everyone passes, open book.

Don't forget that just because you read the rules once doesn't mean they stay that way. The rules change in response to questions. I don't really see a point in reading on any days that aren't update days.
Generally I keep up with changes and q&a more because it let's me see what other teams are thinking not what is in the rules

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

We had an issue a few years back during a Regional where another mentor on our team felt the need to start telling the drivers how to play the game when they were on the field. This same mentor was completely unaware of the number of game pieces that could legally be possessed by a robot and was also unaware of our robot's game piece manipulation sequence. Luckily, our drivers were savvy enough to recognize that the "advice" being disseminated was not something they should listen to. When I politely pointed out to this mentor that the advice that he was giving did not comply with the rules, he replied "The rules are not my thing." My wording was something like "I recognize you would like to help the team succeed. However, the best way you can help is by either reading and understanding the rules, or allowing those who have read and thoroughly understand the rules to work on strategy." This did not motivate this mentor to read the rules, but I believe it helped him realize that by not reading and understanding the rules he had in a way given up any claim to strategic input.

It was a frustrating situation to have a mentor who had not read the rules telling our drivers to play the game a certain way. But on the other hand, it is not vital that mentors read the rules to contribute to a team's success and inspire students. We have one mentor who has been welding FRC robots for 23 years. He has not read the rules but respectfully asks questions to verify that, for the function he performs on our team, he does what is necessary for us to comply with them. While he is welding our frame each year, he teaches students about the safety, geometry, and chemistry considerations of welding an FRC robot and has students assist him with fixturing our frame pieces to prepare for the welds. By leveraging his vast experience we are able to inspire our students and provide them an opportunity they probably wouldn't get otherwise, while building award winning robots.

These arguments are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I would say the importance of understanding the rules depends on the role of any particular mentor has on the team. However, an absolute necessity for ALL mentors is to be willing to accept and respect the time and effort other team members (mentors and students) put into thoroughly understanding the rules.

Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules
 

Game Manual Test

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