Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

My team is in the process of building a forklift and we were wondering what other teams were using as vertical tracks to guide their lift up and down.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

A lot of people use systems very similar to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ6a6dc4BGg

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Plain old 2x1. 1/16" wall, but we can switch to 1/8" if we need to.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We are using garage door tracks. It is not ideal and I am quite worried about binding but we will see this week.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Same. In place of rollers, we have a larger (1.5 x 2.5, I believe) tube that will fit around the 2x1, with PTFE sheets affixed to the inside as a friction reducer. We'll see how it goes.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

2 stacked 1" wide, .25" thick laser-cut plywood rails.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

On the outside, we have 2" x 1" .125" wall rectangular aluminum tubing with some lightening pockets. The carriage has 8mm ID 22mm OD shielded bearings that roll on the 2" x 1". Our preliminary testing showed that delrin rollers didn't roll very nicely when loaded with 50 lbs cantilevered out a foot from the lift tower when the vertical distance between bearings was around 5", but ball bearings ran much more smoothly.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

we use 80/20 extruded aluminum tubing

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using the REV extrusion and bearing system.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Igus sent track/rail sections in the KoP. We called them and they are sending us a 72" track, not free of course, but they do give FRC teams a discount.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Did you have any problems with them binding? I have found that if the load is not on center they bind very easily.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

If only we could find 1/16" wall east of the Mississippi....it is a REAL struggle to find that stuff. There was a thread a while ago that was looking for sources for it, but all of those seem to have dried up. Does it even qualify as COTS anymore if we can't get it? It shows up in some catalogs, but if you call them up, they just don't carry it. Alro said the only way we could get it would be through a custom mill run...

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Check your local metal shops if you haven't already. We get our stock from Alan Steel, although I want to investigate that place the Poofs use in the offseason.
This place has 2 x 1 x 1/16" but it's 6063, not 6061: metalsdepot.com part# T321116.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

I definitely would recommend against using 6063. It almost seems like a completely different material

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We are using 80/20 for the vertical rails. Our traveling element uses skateboard bearings.
The whole thing works smooth as ice and was easy to build. Can easily lift 4 totes and a bin. Very successful so far.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using 2"x1"x1/8" aluminum c-channel for the frame and roller support. Since our height restriction is constant this year (don't have to be shorter at startup or go under some bar somewhere), we went with a single-stage lift rather than the two-stager shown above.
To keep the lift plate level on the roll axis, we're using two chains rather than one. To control pitch rotations, we've made a "double-decker sandwich" of teflon and aluminum. The center piece of aluminum is shorter than the others, and the c-channel frame fits into this groove. There's about a quarter inch of left-to-right play at the center that curves up to about half inch at the top and bottom. We're hoping that'll be enough to prevent binding. If not, we'll cut out a shape similar to half of a woodworiking biscuit from the central plate and put a matching piece of teflon there. Should that fail, we are considering rollers made of radial bearings mounted on bolts: two bearings on each side, all inside the C-channel, with the top one meeting the c-channel on the front face and the lower one contacting the back face. If we go to rollers, we'll have to move our limit switches, which are roller switches mounted inside the c-channel.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We are using tel-power poles retrieved from dumpster diving .
Call around to electrical company's they toss these everyday .
Love free stuff !
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/41182

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We are using 80/20 for the rails 80/20 rollers.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Depending on the moment created by the position of your lift, the IGus rails included in the KOP may not meet your needs. ::rtm:: IGus does have several other rails that will work. Expect to see three of them on Team 281's bot this year.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using 1-5/8" aluminum strut designed for overhead applications. The carts are steel, but well-built and easy to mount to.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

1x1, 1/8th wall 6061 Al c channel. Don't have it completely together yet, but it seems to be working great.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Vexpro's linear slide gusset kits with 6061 1x2 tubes, kinda bulky but it'll have to do.
The kits just came back in stock yesterday.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

In 2011 we found roller-blade wheels in aluminum angle worked well.

Close-up.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Yeah, I wasn't kidding about the east of the Mississippi thing. Don't use 6063. You want 6061-T6. I've called about 2 dozen metal suppliers. It's really not as common as you think it is. And I checked some major manufacturing areas. I found only one in Cleveland and they were wanting $11.50/ft, which is ridiculous. Dayton is a no-go and so is Cincinnati and Columbus. I had to laugh at a comment in the thread for it that it should be available at any decent metal supplier. If it's not available in major manufacturing cities like these, then someone is a bit deluded.

Also, the Poofs get their 6061-T6 from Coast Aluminum.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using these:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#6738k41/=vnxcue
http://www.pbclinear.com/Download/Da...ear-Guides.pdf [pdf]

They're kind of expensive at $60 each roller (for four), plus another $80 per rail but they will save us a ton of headache. I know from experience that linear bearings are hard, and bad bearings make it harder :) This way, the elevator can tolerate some unbalanced loading, has zero slop, goes together easily (with versaframe) and slides with low friction, even under load.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We've got the worst of both worlds :( The only thing in stock in town is 1/8" wall 6063. For comparison, Versaframe (3/32" wall, 6061) is 60% stronger and 20% lighter by my calculations. (Although the thicker wall tube is 18% stiffer.)

The downside of Versaframe is that it costs about double what the 6063 costs from Metal Supermarkets (on a per-foot basis), only comes in 5' lengths, and has a shipping delay. But considering the extra strength and the usefulness of the pre-drilled holes, Versaframe is worth the premium for critical parts IMHO.

/derail

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

You will pay a price premium, but out of area suppliers will cut and ship to you.

It seems a bit odd to me that an entire side of the country can't get it, but it's available at pretty much every aluminum supplier out here.

Seems like an offseason task to find someone who will freight 2000' of it or something, and split it among teams.

Quite a few west coast teams use 100+ feet per year, so 2000' could go really fast among a good size group.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

I tried this before the 2014 season and tried 3 different places that seemed to have good regional coverage out west. None were willing to ship the 1/16" wall tubing to us in New York. We were able to get a supplier for 0.080" wall tubing, I could try to find more information on that if folks on CD are interested.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Our usual Aluminum supplier stopped selling 6061-T6 tubes, and we ordered 6063 in the pre-season without realizing it. It gums up the bits from time to time, but that's the worst of it so far. We'll have to add quite a bit more support to our lift though :(.

Anyone else seeing that as well? We haven't needed more aluminum since the bulk order, so I still have time to find a better supplier.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

In terms of the elevator masts 6063 has the same stiffness as 6061. I don't thing you will come close to the yield strength of either. Of course some one somewhere will be the exception. :]

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

What is the profile of those? Are they channel, box, or something else?

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using 3x3 80-20 with linear slide bearings.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We have been using 6063 for years and it works just fine for us. I would love to get 1/16" wall but like others have said, its hard to find here in Michigan. But they sell 1x1" in 1/16" wall...I don't get it.
-Ronnie

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Hmmm, I'm really surprised ALRO doesn't have the 2"x1" x 1/16" . I'll call tomorrow to see if they have any here in Jackson (where they are based - I've been lucky enough to meet Mr. Al Glick through robotics - he's the Al of Alro and a great guy) We have some 2"x1"x1/8" but didn't use it. We were able to get our hands on Rev profile, the v-groove bearings, made our own mounts with the help of a local machine tool builder with a laser cutter, and made our own bushings for the bearings. So that's what we are going with.


So to hijack the thread a bit what is everyone powering their lift(s) with?

We are using a Cim with a 27 -1 versa planetary and a 12 tooth 35 chain sprocket .

No brake yet...

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

RS-775 18v right now, as the power rating on it is enormous. We still need a brake though.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

1-2 Cims through a Vex Double Reduction gearbox. 40:12 * 40:14 * 22:15 chain reduction, and a disk brake. The "pulley" is a 15t 35 chain sprocket.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using two 775's (18Team2383.com/blog) with a 4 to 1 versa planetary with dual motor input, then a 10:1 worm reduction driving a 22 tooth sprocket (#25 chain) for the lift.

We have no need for a brake because our worm gearbox.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Are you looking at how the RS-775-18 runs on actual 18v? or a specification sheet detailing the performance at our 12v?

MiniCIM-64:1 banebots bb220-15T #35 double sprocket
Calculation looks really good

Would anyone be kind enough to explain the necessity of brakes? Alternatives? Rookie here....

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

So when your elevator is in a lifted position, you aren't simply supplying continuous electric current to hold it off the ground, but instead mechanically hindering gravity. Saves battery.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

After seeing many of Anand's posts I am confident he is looking at the specs @ 12v. Even at 12v the RS775-18(273W) has much more power than the RS775-12(83W).

So it's not for when it comes crashing down.
Do you think the 64:1 planetary would be able to hold the load in the gears?
Also, what happens if say the lift is at the topmost position and the motor is still running? I was thinking limit switch both top and bottom but just saying would it destroy the gearbox or whatnot?

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We wanted to not rely on Vexpro or Andymark for the elevator parts, and made our own system using only mcmcastercarr parts.

It rides on a 2x1 tube and uses UHMW rollers and plates.
It is very smooth and very easy to slide and has no wiggle.
We should be powering it this weekend.

As for reductions we are using a cim going to a 10:1 planetary gearbox, then a 6.5:1 reduction using the single stage clamping gearbox from vex. We are having two of these that share a shaft, so 2 cims going through a 65:1 overall reduction.

We are going to see the system and determine if we need a brake.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Were using 2x1 VersaFrame for our vertical Tracks. Skateboard wheel bearings mounted to a carriage roll on the rail to provide vertical movement with no play in other directions.

Our lift is powered by 2 Cims in an 8.45:1 Toughbox Mini with a 15 tooth 35 chain sprocket.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

I was under the impression that it was a heating issue- if you're holding a stack of totes, it could burn out the motor due to the weight and lack of rotation.
And yes, RS-775 18v run at 12v.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

I realize this is a little bit outside the point of this discussion, but...

I actually find the argument about 6061 versus 6063 aluminum a bit funny. 2220 has used 6063 2x1" for years on their drive trains without any significant issues. This includes "Aerial Assault" where our frame held up with no major bending.

I realize this might be a bit of a "you don't realize how bad it's been until you get out" but 6063 served me quite well when I was on 2220.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

It's two sides of the same issue. Stalling motors uses a lot of power, and therefore creates a lot of heat. Fan/Air cooled motors (rs775/550, am9015) are more likely to burn up without the spinning fan, while high thermal mass motors like CIMs and mini CIMs will probably survive, but only after using large amounts of power. Holding large motors like CIMs and rs775s at stall (even with less than 12v being applied by the controller) will also lower the battery voltage available to other motors while it is holding the lift, in addition to draining the battery. All of this said, we don't plan on having a brake initially.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Our team is planning on using some high performance linear rails that ended up in our possession after the local HP plant decided to cut their full size printing presses resulting in literally tons of scrape. Some of which happened to be linear rails that we decided could work this year.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using 1 CIM in a KOP-equivalent gearbox (so we only have one gearbox type to keep as a spare) at 8.45:1. A 15-tooth sprocket on this axle drives a 32-tooth sprocket on the lift axle, (now down to 18:1) and 15-tooth sprockets all around on the lift chain. Theoretical lift at 40A (before losses) is 125 lb.

We're planning more of a pawl than a brake - it'll be up to the motor to bring the load to a stop. We'll probably going to use a 1/2" ratchet wrench on the gearbox shaft and use a servo to move the toggle back and forth. If that's too finicky, we have several brake designs to choose from.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

2 CIMs on a toughbox mini with 10.71:1 reduction. After that, belts/pulleys provide further reduction to a final ratio of around 42:1. lift is a chain driven carriage with delrin roller sliders on tslot rails. Going to try counter-weighting the carriage so the motors are only lifting the game pieces.

Still not sure if we need a brake.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

MiniCIM in 50:1 (25:1?) VersaPlanetary driving 2" 3-D printed pulley. Bicycle disc brake.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Is the 3D-printed pulley strong enough? We use 3D-printed spacers, but don't trust PLA and ABS for most torque applications.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

I was wondering if anyone else had done any sort of loading calculation to see if the 6061 vs 6063 really mattered for most applications. Unless you are skeletonizing your tubing and using terrible fastening practices, I don't think most of us are going to come close to the yield stress.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We are using a harbor freight drill gearbox, similar to the DeWalt XRP with a RS775-18. The box is ~15:1 and since it is locking we don't have to worry about adding a brake.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Unless you have an enormous drum/sprocket that is pulling your lift, you can probably disconnect one of the CIMs, even before counter weighting.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

With more extra shells and a higher infill density, it will be fine. The key is to keep tension along the layers and try and keep all other loading as compression. Also ABS and PLA are not your only options. I have a mallet I made from 3D printed nylon 6 and it is plenty strong. I have been abusing it for the last 4 months with very little indication of wear.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Since the original post was from Long Island, I suggest you use:

Yarde Metal
999 Motor Parkway Hauppauge NY 11788
Phone: 800.333.2024
Fax: 631.232.3200

I am in NJ and they have a location within a half hour of us that we use all the time.

First, there is a delivery minimum most likely, however, if you own a pick up truck you can just make the drive and get your order. It takes one - three days depending upon where the particular item you want is located. The 6063 C channel we wanted was in the CT location, took 2 business days.

Realize that you will likely be picking up metal in 16 to 20 ft lengths. Bring a hacksaw with you and just cut it in half or for our purposes we needed it in 6 ft ish lengths so we cut the first 6 feet off and the 10 ft fit fine in the truck.

Their sales people are wonderful and they can find almost anything for you. I have used them for 10 years. They do not, however, have an online catalog, which is annoying, but they emailed me the 2 pages of 6063 channel options so I could tell them exactly what I needed.

I am not sure who mentioned delivery into NYC, but I don't see why Yarde won't deliver to you. They have locations all throughout NY, NJ, CT.

http://www.yarde.com/

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We're using 2x2 tube for our elevators.

;)

Pretty much ripping off 973's bearing and gusset setup; it's really simple to manufacture and strong enough for what we are doing.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

Cool, thanks.

Re: Vertical Tracks for Forklift
 

We used a 2" diameter ABS 3D printed winch spool for our catapult launcher last year. It took about 50 pounds to retract our launcher. We had a round bore with a keyway on our first iteration because we didn't have a hex shaft on the winch. As I suspected it cracked around the keyway so we switched to a hex bore and shaft and it held up fine through a month of practice shooting and competition. Here's our spool on GrabCAD.

We're printing our elevator spool this year and we added grooves to guide the line wraps. We use 7/64" Dyneema rope. We're also printing a spool for a constant force spring that counterbalances the elevator. I have seen that mentioned in this thread. I recommend adding one to your elevator/forklift. You can get six free from Vulcan Spring.

Regarding the original topic, we're using VersaFrame 1x2 and 1x1 this year. We used 6063 1x2x1/8 vertical rails in 2013 with no issues.