Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I've seen some discussion on Facebook about teams struggling to make the required numbers look somewhat attractive.

We're not even at that stage in build season, but we'll probably end up with a freshman going crazy with paint and some polycarb.

What are your solutions? If you're ahead enough to actually have this finished, pictures would be appreciated!

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

The student in charge of our decor and theming has drawn up a half dozen design options, including some really unique possibilities. License plates, among others. We will have his design finalized in illustrator, and printed on vinyl.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Just as a point of reference:

You are allowed to have more numbers than required, go crazy with those extras. But...

The GDC specifically stated a color scheme and size. You will need to meet those. As one of the Texas teams found out, even a license plate (which, in Texas, ARE black on white) might not be legal. Even simply reversing the color scheme won't fly, per the GDC.

I'm guessing that "attractive" is about a zero/ten on their list of "criteria we want these numbers to meet" and "standard" is about 11/10.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

How about something like this?

Too legible? :eek:

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Even though it hasn't been asked in q&a, I assume that black text on a transparent background also wouldn't fly (though maybe the rules should explicitly ask for opaque black and white).

We're considering (or at least I am) printing "857" in "our" font on paper, and doing some kind of lamination to make a stiff number, and then attaching that somehow.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

The most important thing is to pass inspection of course. Without violating the relevant rules, teams can still make the numbers interesting and creative.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

White Acrylic withe a cut out of the numbers, and then glued on top of a sheet of black acrylic; that or cut the numbers out of black acrylic and glue them in the outlines of the white acrylic. Both of these methods should be legal since the stroke will be black on a white background.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I know some people are going to take this thread as an opportunity to be cute about how it's a standard and if you don't like it, you know where to put it, etc., but understand there are teams who have built Hall of Fame resumes that include impeccable branding standards to establish their identity across their robot, apparel, and other elements of their team. Students and their advisors take pride in the work they do developing these standards. I do understand that the creators of the rule wanted a standard, but I think it's ok to call it a bad standard, not allowing the smallest of latitudes in way of white on black (which I would argue could be more visible).

It's at the point where some teams will opt to have these numbers easily concealable/removable and make their number logos that they spent time developing to create a unique and highly visible identity larger than the placards.

I know this is highly subjective, and I hope a Hall of Fame team with great identity standards can prove me wrong here, but even the bumpers at their worst didn't look this bad.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I'm not part of our style crew, but I did overhear something about integrating the number with the sponsor panel on one side and with our logo and colors (outside the rectangle) on the other three sides. We'll probably end up posting these on the outer panels of the drive chassis, in about the same place that they would be if we had bumpers. W also plan to have RGB lighting above and/or below this area so we can show alliance colors, game phase, and so forth.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Well said. I agree entirely. At least they didn't mandate the font.

The numbering rules of years past really were more than sufficient and did not need change. I don't know how to say this in a graciously professional way, but I blame the teams who always somehow managed to make crappy numbers that you couldn't read as a reason for the new change. These teams who cannot figure out how to display their own number properly are teams that really ought to be participating in VEX instead. You know who they are. There's a handful at every event.

Let this be a lesson to all of us: If you allow your fellow competitors to get away with poor quality work, and we'll all be mandated to implement "solutions" that are better than these teams' poor quality work, but worse than the top teams' high-quality work. It really reflects poorly on the teams that have been doing it a while that we have newer teams that struggle with these rather mundane tasks. It says that we don't do enough as mentors, which I'll admit, we don't.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm not a fan of the black on white color scheme. I prefer quite the opposite, and have never had any trouble seeing it, from over 100 feet away.

But, I'll get over the numbers eventually, and I'm thankful bumpers are gone.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

One option is to follow the racecar numbering scheme.

One example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mber_117).jpeg

Another:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ssan_Front.jpg

Or, if you like a more retro style:
http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/...ar_Front_1.jpg

And of course we can't forget:
http://rawautos.com/wp-content/uploa.../09/Herbie.jpg

:)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I've had the idea that simple black numbers with a white outline on polycarb (possibly smoked) would be an effective and good-looking solution.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

An idea that might be too expensive, but regionals make 4 laminated cards for all teams and those that can't reach the guidelines outlined in the rules get the cards and have to use them.

Too expensive in that it's pricey enough for some blowhard to shoot the idea down, but renting out a lamination system is minor expense for a regional or a region/state district system that prints off a surprising amount of stuff at an event.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Exactly. This isn't nearly as limiting as people are saying. Neither the font nor the "rectangle" are manditory. The only problems with a real license plate are that the numbers aren't the proper size, for instance.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Reading some of the posts here and in other threads on the subject, it looks to me like many teams will succeed in making the numbers illegible, even with the strict guidance in the game manual.

One of these days, we might all get paper numbers before the race that we attach to our robot with safety pins. At least the refs and scouts could then easily tell which runners are which.

It would be a minor expense to have a full set of numbers printed on card stock for each regional.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

It would be almost no expense. In fact, that would be an excellent way for a team to come to competition prepared to help other teams out: have preprinted, laminated numbers for every team.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Gregor: be aware that some paints, adhesives, and also thread lockers don't play nice with polycarbonate. Some may dissolve it, others may cause it to become brittle. Make sure you are either aware of a certain paint's effects on polycarb or go ahead and test a small are yourself to see if there are any adverse effects.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I'm planning on using full sheets of white sticker paper, with the number printed in sufficiently large font on it. Stick to polycarbonate, and done.

Cheap, crisp, and better looking than most numbers painted on bumpers.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I'm pretty disappointed with the numbering rules. I feel like they could have just said that the text has to reasonably contrast with the background, and if it isn't easily legible, the inspector will attach a hand written, legible sign on poster board over your pretty, illegible numbers. I think that threat would have been enough.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Remember, if you're in charge of anything, there are only two ways to make people complain:

1. Do something.
2. Do nothing.

If you can avoid those two things, you'll be fine.

FIRSTers in particular want very strictly delineated guidelines so that they know exactly what parameters under which they're working, except when they don't. And different people will come to different conclusions on how which area of what should be handled.

...so people will get grumpy about it either way.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

What I think reasonably contrasts when I'm in my lab might vary greatly from what someone else thinks reasonably contrasts on the field. It's better to have incredibly strict guidelines for this than have something that the boundaries/restrictions can be pushed to a limit.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Would it be considered legal to have four different signs on each side of the robot, each with only one number?

An example would be as follows (note: crude drawing ahead. Sensitive types might want to shield their eyes...) -

_|3|_|8|_|0|_|7|_
[ ~ ~ ROBOT ~ ~ ]

Or vertical signs?

|3|
|8|
|0|
|7|

Or signs with two of the numbers on top and two on bottom?


|38|
|07|

How about angled signs?

\3\
.\8\
..\0\
...\7\

Can the numbers be different sizes?

|3807|

If any one of these options are legal (as long as the font is legible, it's black on a white background, etc). then I'll be happy.

I do think that there is a certain amount of originality that can be preserved with robot numbering... though I would hate to see us have any problems with the judges over something that's pretty trivial.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Oh Sanddrag, a VEX slap? Are you unhappy that VEX sends out those really cool number plates?

I'm missing the hard part of this. Black numbers on a white background on the robot isn't hard.

Its an iteration of getting there. We had bumpers with contrasting team numbers on the bumper. Next year bumpers will be back and this won't be a problem :(

If numbers are the biggest issue this season I really can't wait for week 1

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I actually think you can have your number vertically, as long as it is on all four sides.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

There's been a fair bit of study on contrast... http://colorusage.arc.nasa.gov/luminance_cont.php http://colorusage.arc.nasa.gov/Percept_layers_1.php

And I'm gonna stop there before I end up down the rabbit hole of reading all about color usage today.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

While there's some good discussion here, this thread was intended more for innovative solutions than complaining. Keep talking, but let's talk solutions given our constraints.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Nope! That's 'ambiguous'. https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...least-one-side

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

That's good to know... we'll have to change that now...

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I will say one thing... As an inspector, this rule is very straight forward and easy to verify. Most people seem to want some sort of "contrasting color" rule instead of the black/white... But when inspecting at an event contrasting colors can be somewhat subjective, and may lead to disagreements between teams an inspectors.

Frankly, given the large number of crappy looking bumper numbers I've seen over the years, I'm a little surprised people are so upset about how "bad" this will look on their robot. For teams that forget it, this is something that is easily and quickly (if ugly) remedied with some paper, a sharpie, and some tape... Not so go teams that had bumper issues and had to scramble to find a way to get their numbers on newly made bumpers, or have to wait hours for the paint to dry..

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I only know because I checked - we were planning on doing the same thing. :( I heartily disagree with that call, but this thread isn't for complaining. How else would you read that number, especially when it's the only thing with a white background?!

What it looks like we'll end up doing is very-long white plates along the edge of the drivetrain with the right numbering on it. Still ugly, but at least existing in its own zone away from our pretty paneling.

I think the biggest thing teams can do to make these plates less horrible is use their correct font. (If your team doesn't have a consistent font use for your numbers ... take a look at your team's branding & fix it!) As long as it fits the stroke requirements it'll at least make the placard look sort-of-intentional.

Your comment is actually pretty offensive. I am a member of "one of those teams" from last year we had a barely built bot and didn't have time to take an hour to paint on numbers so we did it in 10 seconds and it looked like crap. This year we are getting to the end with a working bot so we will have time to make our number look nice. Some newer teams like us have money, mentor, space and time issues. We wanted to do frc so we did and we have been doing it. Just because a team did bad one year doesn't mean they are not good enough. Please save your rude and abnoxious comments for when your on a team who has 1 full time mentor, a tiny room, and such a tiny budget that you can't afford anything but bar stock and l bracket.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Having a common standard (horizontal numbers, black on white, minimum size) allows inspectors, refs, FTAs, judges and every one else to nearly instantly identify a robot's number. Previous years bumper rules attempted to do the same.

Not having to look around for whatever creative variant has been used makes things easier for everyone.

As an inspector, when I go looking for team's pit, I always look for the standard pit team number sign that have been used for years to quickly determine if it is the pit I'm looking for.

Runners in the Boston Marathon all have the EXACT SAME number style for the same types of reason - that's one of the premier marathons in the world, and runners I'm sure care a lot about their appearance, but they don't get to design their own number-- and I don't think they complain about it. And you don't see any wild variations in jersey player numbers for major sports either-- granted they get some design leeway, but I suspect they have to get their designs approved by the league prior to using it. That's not practical with FRC, since the first chance is during inspection.

If I were an LRI, I'd be sure to have resources on hand to allow me to print numbers on paper or card stock and hand it to any team in questionable compliance on the numbers.

In fact, it would actually make sense if drive teams were required to have 'bibs' or other required large team number markings, rather than just a button-- so drive team members could be identified instantaneously also. (or more importantly, people who aren't drive/media folks who shouldn't be on the field.)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Does the team number have to be the team number we are given? Can we list our team number in Base 16 or Base 2? What about Roman Numerals?

Game Announcer:
There goes M-M-M-M-C-M-X-C-I down the field, about to stake another tote!

/sarcasm

So back to the original question, attractive solutions to this year's tougher numbering rules.

So a couple of things to consider, you'll want the number to appear to be Matte, with all the lights around the field you don't want to give off the wrong type of reflection.

If you still meet the basic requirements of a Black Number on a white background, you can still dress it up with LED's on the border or with layers and back lighting.

Another opinion: Teams are going to not pass Championship level inspection because of the 0.5" stroke length requirement.

I'm also looking for a team that will have their numbers on a large rotating cylinder.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Our team 3-D Printed our numbers this year with a White base and Black numbers on top. They came out pretty decent looking and they should give us better options for mounting. I'm not sure if the ekocycle has the bed space to make two numbers at a time as we made ours on a Makerbot Rep 2.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I was wandering around budget home supply store and found an interesting option... Mailbox/ address numbers! the ones that were there were the correct size and color. I think that this could be a really simple, cheap and elegant solution. They also have screw holes and are easily mountable!:D

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

The reflectorized ones are fun....try taking a flash picture of a robot that has them :)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

One question I have is since the intent of the rule is to see it from any angle on the field, what happens if totes or a can are blocking the number while they are being held by the robot? During inspection this number could be completely visible, but during a match it could end up hidden.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

There aren't many things you can do to make them attractive however I am considering making a black and yellow set that we can easily swap out so we aren't stuck with not so great looking black and white all season.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

This has been answered in Q&A 145

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Thanks Jon.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

That was my teams question :D. We are probably going to use the new Texas License plate with the white background and black letters. We have to get it custom made to fit the size requirements however.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

My husband and I own our own vinyl cutting business and we have been cutting black vinyl on a white background for teams in our area. These stickers can then be put on any surface. Picture here. They're made of a vinyl rated for outdoor use for 5 years so they should stand up to two or three events ;)

The team I mentor is sticking them on colored, corrugated plastic.

We had to update our branding and design standards to accommodate for them, but we're looking at them as license plates - you don't put it on your car because it looks good, you put it on because you want to be able to legally drive it.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Ah....someone who gets it.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

You know, out of all the explanations of why, I understand and like this one most.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Quite on the contrary, and the VEX numbers are irrelevant to my point. What I was trying to say is that FRC is the big leagues, and not everyone is ready for it. With a rookie dropout rate in FRC of nearly 50%, many schools would be better suited to participating in the VEX, or perhaps FTC programs.

I did precede my comment with a disclaimer that I was uncertain how to present my point in a nice way, but I feel it's a point that needed to be presented. Perhaps a robot having poor numbers is indeed not an indicator of a team's overall abilities or efforts. Who am I to say what a different team's limitations and circumstances are. However, I worry about the long term success and sustainability of a team (any team, not specifically yours) that is unable to complete one of the simplest and most straightforward tasks required in the whole scope of this program.

I used to think that a certain team's viewpoint of "if there's things that your team is not good at, and others are, you need to work harder" was kind of rude and arrogant, because it makes the presumption that some teams don't work hard, but then I discovered that the statement is very applicable to reality, and life in general, and I'm beginning to see its value. Success comes from hard work, in every detail of everything you do. That's the bottom line.

Samuel, if your team anticipates having another struggle with creating numbers, I would like to personally extend an offer to vinyl cut team 2869's numbers, free of charge, and I'll mail them to you on my dime. I'll do whatever font and size you want, and even a custom logo graphic of the number if it's a modified font artwork.

And to steer this thread back on track with the original discussion of solutions, vinyl cutting is indeed one nice way to do it with a professional outcome. Laser cutting of plastic may also be an option, as may be CNC router cutting. (sorry for the derailment OP)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

A great deal of success also comes from one's situation in life as well. While the idea that some schools may be better served by participating in lower demand programs, it's is not necessarily a reflection of their work ethic or skill (either during the build season or the off-season).

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

How are vertical numbers ambiguous?

If you saw
1
1
1
4

and had to figure out the team number, how could you not realize that it was 1114? What other team number could be determined from this sequence of numbers?

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I've been trying to think of a good solution to this as well, but my head hits a wall every time I try. It's hard to be creative with this when the rules are so strict.

I do think if you chamfer the corners of the plate you print your numbers on (basically round them off), they will look a lot better and cleaner, making the numbers look more professional than an afterthought. A bit similar to my bumper philosophy, rounded bumpers just look very nice (though bumpers like 1114's in the past have looked very sharp with those clean cut angles!).

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

This is one of the times having a low digit team number comes in handy, I'm sure we'll just add a big "4" to the panels we always have on our 'bots for sponsors logos, etc.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I wonder if they would interfere with another robot's vision tracking...

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I really don't see the numbering rules as that big a deal. It makes perfect sense to have some sort of uniform way for bumpers to be displayed and there are many ways to put some simple black and white numbers on a robot.... It may not be "pretty," but that does not mean that it's truly ugly. Make the numbers sharp and clean and it will look fine - even on a beautiful robot.

Heck, if you're really worried about pretty your robot is, make the numbers easily removable so that you only have to look at them when you are competing. When the robot is on display, doing outreach, etc., take the numbers off. After all, most Olympic athletes don't wear their numbers when they aren't participating in events....And, during events, I am certain they do care about the way their uniforms look.

We're required to have black and white numbers? Whatever - no problem.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

When I first saw the little Vex number plates that were issued to teams, my first thought was "Wow, standardized numbers, this looks like a professional kind of competition!"

I really thought that teams would have been happier that we're not required to stick big red or blue bumpers all the way around the robot and have this numbering system instead. A black and white number plate is much less intrusive on a teams color schemes than bumpers.

"IV"? The rules don't specify that they need to be Arabic numerals, it just has to be unambiguous. :)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

That's not legal, vertical number is ambiguous :rolleyes:

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Aw, back to the drawing board.

In all seriousness, we asked on the Q&A if we could use our logo, as it's just a 4 with a phoenix over it, but didn't get quite a clear answer. We may end up making two panels per side, one with the logo, one without, or just go with the number alone.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I think "There is no provision in this rule for additional design or coloring in that space." is a clear enough answer.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Consider the black numbers and the white space around them as untouchable - no other lines, colors, or images may be in that area. That's what I think the GDC is saying.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Yup, I reread that and realized what they were saying, thanks! I assume we'll just go with a big 4.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

There is no reason you can't just put the required numbers on your robot in an inconspicuous manner/position and then add your big, custom, flashy, neon, led-backlit, Las Vegas style, properly branded team numbers in a more prominent, noticeable location.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Yea, but then you have some good looking numbers and branding, and then elsewhere on your robot you have clashing, generic numbers. Looks tacky, imo.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I think this is what bothers me most about the rule. If nearly instant identification is the point, and I agree it is, this regime does very little for me as a referee. As someone who remembers the pre-numbers-on-bumpers days, I remember how much faster I'll identify this guy, this guy, or this guy than one of these three. Try it. (No offense anyone; nice robots.)

This is because rapid identification is less about size and color than it is about location and ascetics (there's probably a more technical terms for the latter). Bumper numbers aren't useful to me because they're red or blue or are quite so tightly regulated by shape and color*. They're useful because I know the team number is going to be the only thing between 2"-10" off the ground of each robot. (As expected, this gets harder with intakes dropping down--recognition is slowed even if the number itself isn't covered.)

I predict that multiple times this year I will ref three same-alliance robots with cluttered, light-colored sponsor panels or numbers otherwise buried under glaring lights/awkwardly placed geometry. If somewhere in that cluttered, white-ish robot are (4) 3.5" high numbers with 1" of white space, you can bet I'm gonna be struggling with it. Just be grateful they don't have us tracking possessions by robot like 2014, or as coaches we'd all pull out even more hair than we did then. Which is saying something.


This is actually true in some of the other examples you cited. At least at the events I inspect, pit signs are not always in the same place in the every pit. Whether or not they are, sometimes they're also absorbed into a similarly colored sponsor banner or the like. It takes longer, sometimes much longer, to identify these teams, even though the sign itself looks exactly the same. I've also been a race volunteer, and when people move those bibs (e.g. to their thigh), identification is relatively much slower.


*That said, I understand the need for strictness to avoid loopholes. And even this year, FIRST is clearly trying. Without being a marketing/ascetics expert, I have trouble formulating a rule that would satisfy both my concerns and those others have mentioned. Anyone have an idea?

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

We just made plates using these this year:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#sign-engraving-plates

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

From looking at your examples of legible vs. illegible numbers on robots, it looks like we need to specify that every robot be a large box with expansive sheets of polycarbonate around the outside, so there's a convenient place to put a well designed team logo. We also need to require that every team spend sufficient effort to design such a logo, and it wouldn't hurt if they all figured out how to get sponsorship from a company that makes graphics.

I doubt that will happen.

The new rules may work ok, they may not. Figuring out where to put the numbers is going to be a challenge this year, since the way the game works kind of suggests that robots will not be made of big boxes, covered with polycarbonate panels. Instead, they will mostly be spindly frames with very little surface area, and moving parts that will make it hard to find a place to put four (roughly) 12" x 6" team number placards. Even if FIRST provides the placards, it's still going to be challenging to find or make a place to put them, as well as the team (school) name, and sponsor names.

It should be fun, we'll see what happens! The referees and scouts will probably have some fresh challenges.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Unfortunately Siri, far too few teams will design a robot with obvious identification like your 3 examples. Over the past few years with bumper numbers, there were quite a few teams that could have been disqualified from participating because they didn't have readily legible numbers. Of course we don't want to toss them out of an event because they couldn't meet something relatively easy to achieve. But really, teams could try a whole lot harder.

Allowing teams to design their own number-display scheme would be just that much worse. Teams would choose to have designs that were clear to them, because they are used to seeing the logo, but which don't translate well when displayed on a robot. Or they would come up with a color scheme that didn't have enough contrast.

An example from outside robotics. In our travel soccer league, teams are required to have a light and dark jersey. One team used their light blue team color as their dark jersey, and white as the light. They'd go up to play against a team that used light and dark blue. Team A would have their light blue on as "dark", and Team B had their light blue jersey on as "light" - and you couldn't tell the difference between them so you had to get one of them to change. And was a girls team, so changing wasn't simple.

I'm sure we're going to have teams show up thiss year with a sheet of paper with a thin Sharpie number on them, teams with only 1 or 2 signs, teams with no margin around their numbers, teams with black on non-white backgrounds - all sorts of sub-standard number signs. But at least they can be readily fixed.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Gary, I agree, but I'd argue that the bumper number struggles are separate. I've never had a problem immediately identifying a team that is actually in compliance with modern-era bumper rules. At the same time, like you, I regularly let teams slide for failing to comply with them, both in inspection and on-field.

But that is not a rules issue. I have full confidence that n>1 teams will always fail to comply with any potential set of rules. (I'm an optimist like that.) We'll do our best to get those teams into compliance just like we do every year.

My post here was a separate issue, as to how compliance with this/alternative rule sets will actually affect identification (as opposed to just ascetics). I disagreed with jvriezen's point about immediate identification, but that doesn't mean I'd advocate for looser rules. (In fact, if immediate identification were the only end goal, I'd expect the rule set to be stricter. I'm not advocating for this either.) In terms of an identification/ascetics balance, are the rules too tight in some places and too loose in others? Would standard bibs better? A standard height? Allowing vertical numbers? Would allowing white-on-black make some robots more identifiable? What about giving RIs more leeway (which, as mentioned, we're likely to take anyway)? I don't know, so I asked.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

"This guy?"
Oh come on, it says Alice right on the front! ;)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Might as well ask this in the thread:

Would a creative way of displaying Team Number count towards your weight allowance? Per the manual, Team numbers aren't really a mechanism, so I'm thinking we don't need to weigh those with the robot. However, the manual explicitly states that bumpers count towards weight this year, leading me to believe that any creative solution to numbering our robot may end up counting against our weight budget...

I'll be sure to ask in the Q&A, but I'd like to hear some opinions and thoughts on this.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

My opinion is that it would. After all, sponsor panels count. The only things that don't count are batteries and operator console, so a tricked-out number would almost certainly count.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Siri makes a strong point that more aesthetically pleasing and more importantly more distinct designs are the more memorable ones. Anyone who comes to the Silicon Valley Regional for the first time will be able to automatically recognize that the robot with the orange animal theme is the Wildhats, that the elegant blue machine is the Cheesy Poofs, and the beautiful architecture of sheet metal is Spartan Robotics. The reason this is so effective is because these teams know how to properly brand and design robots that stand out compared to the rest. It's not even arguable that this is the most ideal method to differentiate robots. It's that effective, always has been, and likely always will be.

The problem with that is it is an ideal, because not every team makes robots that clearly make it known to a viewer whose they are, which is why the mandated numbering system is being used by FIRST this year. However due to all of the very clear reasons others have posted in this thread about, it is definitely not the best solution. Now I'm not saying it's a bad one - it has potential to get the job done, but it's not the ideal solution.

So to both provide an alternative, and to answer Gregor's question, I believe that if we want to achieve that ideal solution of perfectly distinguishable and clearly recognizable robots, the best method is to educate teams on how to do so. The majority of teams don't make these kind of robots not because they don't want to, but because they don't know how to. If taught how, I can very easily see teams making robots that will be easily identifiable to any "reasonably astute observer". Even when bumpers do make a return, I believe that educating teams on how to effectively brand and make their robots stand out will be beneficial. When 148 unveils this season, I will see their robot once, and each time after that know that that robot is the Robowrangler machine. In the future, I want to be able to look at rookie team 7777's robot and be able to recognize it from then on in the same way I always recognize the Robowrangler robots.

tl;dr: Instead of insisting on a standard that raises the floor but also lowers the ceiling, educate the floor on how to become the ceiling.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I think they used the wrong word in R4. Instead of "MECHANISMS", it probably should be "COMPONENTS" - or perhaps "MECHANISMS and COMPONENTS".

From the Glossary:
Surely they don't mean to say that any removable COMPONENTS don't count in ROBOT weight. If so, you could remove a whole lot of COMPONENTS to meet weight, and then add them back on at will.

But this wouldn't apply to the team numbers - that placard is a part of your basic ROBOT structure. A ROBOT isn't a legal ROBOT unless the numbers are correctly displayed.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

At the very least, having open rules (your number has to be highly visible with a minimum stroke) and whatever doesn't make the cut gets pre-made license plates. At the end of the day what ticked me off was the idea of raising the floor vs lowering the ceiling. With all of the times we have been raising the floor over the last 2 years, I don't know why the ceiling was lowered here.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

The rules aren't optimal, but the numbers aren't absolutely horrible. There are ways to make it look pretty nice actually, as we've found out recently. Surrounding it with your own team colors such that it's like a license plate makes it look much better, in addition to a more fluid shape than a straightedge rectangle like I said earlier.

I do agree that we should raise the floor rather than lower the ceiling, but I don't think it's that bad. I think future amendments should include choice of contrasting colors if this remains a requirement, and have backups ready at competition for teams that fail to meet this requirement.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

This is lawyering the rules. The intent of the weight limit seems to be that everything but the battery counts toward the ROBOT weight.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

The intent behind this rule is that you can't build two drastically different mechanisms that each bring your robots weight to 120 lbs and swap them between matches to change your strategy. This rule says that if you want to swap them you can, but they both count towards robot weight even if they don't go on the field. Otherwise nothing stops me from building two robots and picking the one I want to field each match.

Functionally equivalent replacement parts with different cosmetic appearance don't violate this rule. For example in 2010 the killer bees swapped signs on the bottom of their robot every time they hung, but they didn't have to weigh in with ALL of those signs.

The sign weight counts towards your 120 lbs, but it doesn't count if it's not going on the field. Feel free to change your sign every match if you'd like.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Similar situation here, I own a small sign shop where I do signage and graphics part time.

For years I have been sponsoring / supplying the necessary graphics for our team whether it be stencils for bumper numbers or sponsor logos for the robot and sponsor board etc. This year we plan on simply putting the required black numbers on white background in vinyl and applying them to (4) sides of the robot.

Sure it won't be fancy, but the team and sponsor logos should shine.

This isn't a fashion show, it's a piece of machinery that needs to pass inspection.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

It's FRC man! It's a bit of both. ;)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Touche`

I agree we should make our robots as nice & fancy as possible, with whatever branding we can pull off.

My comment was more aimed at the number limitations this year, and so instead of over thinking it, my opinion is to just follow the rules as written and put your design effort in other aspects of the robot. I would just hate to fail inspection because we "got fancy" with our numbers.

But you know we will see some robot numbers that have some style, are readable and pass inspection.

And we'll probably see some numbers that should not have passed inspection out on the field. Like we have with bumper numbers that have stretched the rules.

~shrug~

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Indeed! Last year we saw a lot of teams with bumpers left on the field for week 1... it was sad. Building robots is hard though... I don't think anyone does it because it is easy.

Personally, we like white and black paint schemes. ;)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I found some custom downloadable fonts that seem to fit the stroke requirements. If any of these are breaking the rules in some way, or anyone finds some new ones, let me know! I'm fairly certain these come with numbers.


With number preview (just put your team number where it says 1234)
http://www.dafont.com/alte-haas-grotesk.font?text=1234
http://www.dafont.com/upbolters.font?text=1234
http://www.dafont.com/call-of-ops-duty.font?text=1234
http://www.dafont.com/motion-control.font?text=1234
http://www.dafont.com/american-captain.font?text=1234
http://www.dafont.com/font-comment.p...tica&text=1234
http://www.dafont.com/font-comment.p...milk&text=1234

Attachment 18292 so snapdrag sent me vinyl numbers (thanks again you saved my team either a solid 60 dollars or having bad looking numbers).

Basically I cut out pieces of lexan that matched the decal size at school and spray painted them white at home (just used this rust-oleum stuff I had laying around). I then flipped them over and put on the decals. I think the dimension between the peices along with his gray under shadow will make it creative while strictly staying in the guidelines. Also I think it will still look really good with our leds shining throught it.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

This is what we're trying to avoid....right?

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

The numbers look great how you applied them on the lexan. I'm glad we were able to help. The subtle grey shadow is neat. How exactly did you do that effect?

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I think he answered that in his explanation.
The white paint is on the back of the Lexan and the numbers are on the front. So with the lexan thickness, it provides a shadow.

Pretty Sweet!

Ironically enough I thought at first that he added the gray shadow when he made them I didn't realize until I brought them to put on the bot why the shadow was there it's a neat affect that I accidently achieved.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

The numbers look great. But unless they are 10 or 12 inches tall, you don't have enough white space around them - an inch is required.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

We looked at a lot of touring cars and the Le Mans series for inspiration for a number plate. I feel that it turned our great.

I think there is about an inch shouldn't be a problem.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

We just aren't going to spend much time worrying about the numbers... I printed off five number tags: Impact, 420 point (black on white paper). I then laminated them. Before each competition we'll tape them prominently and securely on the robot. When showing off our robotic beauty, we'll remove the numbers.... unless there is some nasty cheese-holing or wiring we wish to obfuscate....

Of course, if some bored student decides to come up with a pretty solution that doesn't interfere with robot function or put us over the weight limit, we can use that instead.... Whatever.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

We used some roll material from TwillUSA for the bumper material (adhesive backing in red/blue) and then cut out numbers from a white roll (also with adhesive backing)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I hope you realize that what you described sounds great for last year's rules, but totally don't match this year's rules, as numbers must be black on white background (and 3.5" tall with .5" stroke minimums and at least 1" of white background around the numbers. )

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Buy a black roll?

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

I read this thread today and it's got me a bit bothered. The rules are clear regarding the requirement. It's OK to not like a rule (take it up with the GDC) ..... but it's not going to go well for you if you ignore it expecting to reason your way out of it at an event. If you come to an event I'm inspecting at, and choose to argue your case, I'll allow you to use a piece of duct tape to attach the sheet of notebook paper with your team number on it over your airbrushed work of art .....

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

FRC mandates unattractive numbers this year; get over it. If you aren't happy with it and feel the need to protest, give them ugly but unambiguous. I went through several of those searching for a decent solution.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Agreed. Wooden robots numbered 1726 should never be allowed in front of metal doors numbered 1534.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

We must be reading different threads because no one in here mentioned ignoring rules. There are things I personally find more valuable than arguing with inspectors on practice day, and I'm sure most people hold the same feeling.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Just reverse the colors :P (and my head isn't in the game, as I don't have a team this year)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Red/blue on white doesn't meet the requirements either. It has to be black numbers on a white background, nothing else.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Agreed; I don't see what's appearing overly controversial in this thread. Why would anyone ignore the rule or quibble with an RI? (I for one am not looking forward to putting on my yellow hat and discussing R2 at any length. Just put the sign on, I've got more important things on this checklist for both your concern and mine.) This thread has a number of pretty cool elegantly legal designs, some complaints and discussion of potential changes and consequences, and a few people asking for clarification, but I don't recall anyone screaming 'life's not fair' and 'let's fight with inspectors'. If anything, the metadiscussion is about to what degree this an issue that can or should be brought up in official/potentially impactful channels.

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

Well as it turns out, and as others have mentioned here, you CAN follow the rules and still add a little style to your number. I don't have a photo of our finished robot yet, but we went with the standard black numbers on white background for the front and sides, but for the back where we had more room, we incorporated the team name with the number (attached screen shot of graphic)

Re: Robot Numbering, Attractive Solutions?
 

That looks great!