Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

CIM wire leads also have insulation that can take more heat than the insulation that's on most wires.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I think "installed" is the key word. R65 says the original condition. "optional" parts are not part of the original condition.

Now, if it came with it installed, then the question is whether R65-C applies since you would be "disassembling" to remove the NPT fitting, and not "assembling".

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Another thought:

FIRST doesn't want you replacing wires that were not intended to be replaced. Thus the concession granting exception to using wire as supplied by the manufacturer.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

The only part that is required to be connected by hard fittings is the relief valve. Hook up a T with a relief valve on it, then use some tubing to located the gagged and switch and such someplace more accessible.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Just to verify:

PDB <-> 40A Breaker <-> 12AWG wire <-> Victor <-> 14AWG wire directly attached to CIM

Legal?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Bingo.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

As I understand it, this is legal. You can also add a length of 12 AWG wire between the Victor and the 14 AWG wire.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

So let me cover both issues here, starting with the wire.
CIM motors have a slightly higher temperature insulation and in practice would be wired to a long length of wire. (They were originally designed for trailer tongue positioners as I remember.) In our application, you can run #10 to them if you so desire. The short length of higher temp wire still keeps them safe for our purposes.
The output port of the compressor is supplied with a check valve to prevent system pressure from bleeding through the compressor. I haven't examined one in a while so I don't remember if that fitting is part of the check valve. I will try and check tonight before we mount the compressor (maybe).

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Thanks!

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I know one of their different compressors, the 250c IG variant utilizes a completely separate check valve that has to be installed to work.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Just be really happy First doesn't make you take apart the motor and solder 12 AWG wires to it. :eek: In the integral HP world, the feed wires are always bigger than the wires in the motor. The manufacturer can make an engineering judgment on how big the wires need to be based on more known factors than the general case of power distribution wiring.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Circuit breakers are circuit protection devices, that means they exist to protect the wire. What they protect the wire from is the insulation getting so hot it melts. There are many types of insulation with many different melting points and the rating for the wire and insulation is dependent on the conditions it is used in. That means there is no universal rating for say a 12ga wire. The CIM wires enter the motor where the temps will be much higher than ambient. Because of that they use high temp insulation which means that particular 14ga wire can safely carry a 40a load.

It is not practical for all inspectors to be trained to identify all types of insulation, know their temp ratings and to have to check the type of insulation on a robot by robot basis. So FIRST makes the assumption that a motor MFG knows what they are doing when they selected the attached wire and that the average team will be using wire with low temp insulation and set the rules accordingly.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Several other things that get missed when building our bots.
1) Please allow easy access to the 120 amp breaker. No one wants to see their bot burn because the ref couldn't find the breaker.
2) The same for the pneumatic vent. Don't hide it.
3) Sharp corners. I don't like to see blood, espaeiclly my own :ahh:
4) If you are using pneumatics, please have the guages where we can see them.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

James,
I checked our ViAir last night and the check valve is mounted directly to the compressor. It has a nice arrow punched into the body. The additional fitting appears to the transition for supplied check valve. I did not pull ours apart to see what, or if, there is a threaded transition on the check valve. This is certainly a question for the Q&A I think. I like that there is some metal at that port to help cool off the output air. That little compressor does run hot if you run it often.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I see that your team has asked the GDC (Q360) if the check valve supplied with Viair model 250C-IG compressor is legal.

If that check valve is considered a part of the compressor, then NOT using it would violate R65. If it is considered a separate part, then using it would violate R66.

Based on the GDC's response to 2014 Q325, I think the hose AND the check valve that come from the manufacturer should be considered parts of the compressor, and therefore required per R65. Of course my opinion is worthless at inspection.

Eagerly awaiting the GDC's word on 2015 Q360. :)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Yup, that was me asking... I saw them answer a question that check valves are illegal (which was expected), but wanted to make sure there was another answer directly applicable to the compressor we're using so an overzealous inspector didn't point to that Q&A and make our whole system worthless. I can't overturn inspectors when dealing with my own team :)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

All the First legal compressors have two check valves in them. One on the inlet, one on the outlet. Without them, the compressor essentially becomes a cylinder mounted to a motor.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Thanks Al, will submit a Q&A.

FWIW we have mounted numerous 'hard' brass fittings to the compressor outlet to aid in cooling off the compressed air.

Edit: Q&A here - https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...fitting-remain

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Right, check valves are pretty necessary for a compressor, but most of them have it "built in". The 250C IG has it attached to the required leader hose, and it's real easy for it to be viewed by an inspector as a separate part.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I understand. :)

From a functionality point of view he check valve needs to be attached directly to the compressor to keep the compression ratio as high as possible. The braided hose there to keep people from attaching plastic hose directly to the compressor which can be hot enough to cause the plastic hose to fail.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

While not formerly defined in the glossary. Bumpers are still an inspection check list item. Listed as optional. I understand why it is there since it is a considerable departure from previous years rules.

"Previous years rules do not apply to the current game." Now where have I heard that before? :]

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I checked on this when that compressor became an option a few years ago. The manufacturer requires it as it supplies a cooling path for the hot air. On that compressor only, as it is required by the manufacturer, the hose is considered part of the compressor and must be attached. As a note, I have only seen one in inspection.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Are we permitted to put a two-way manually operated tee-valve between 60 a psi source and a solenoid valve, such that in one position, the valve connects 60 psi to the solenoid input (like if it were a normal connection), and in the other position, the valve connects atmosphere/vent to the solenoid input, and blocks off the 60 psi source? (We want to be able to move some pistons by hand during setup, but don't want to evacuate our air tanks to do this.)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I can guarantee you'll see another one up in Duluth this year :)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Would that be an R66F Flow control Valve?

Make sure that in either position, R78 requirement is met (vent the entire system), and
R79 (output of multiple valves) are not plumbed together (solenoid and manual valve).

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

It's essentially one of these, but plastic: http://www.valworx.com/product/bronz...8utBoCiA7w_wcB

So yes, R78 is met, as well as R79 (this is a series system, not a parallel system).

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Thad,
From your description I would say the valve does not meet the intent of the rules. I would however recommend you ask the Q&A for a more definitive answer.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

While we are on the subject, the pneumatic rules haven't really changed much for many years, this year but there may be one or two gotchas...
1. Please understand the "one and only one" in R68. This means that only one compressor can supply air to the robot. If it fails you can replace it with a functional and identical one without the need to reinspect. If you have one mounted on your robot, you may not use another one to supply air for a match. That means you cannot have a compressor on your cart, in your pit or behind a curtain that you use to supply air to your robot. You may not run the compressor connected directly to a battery, ever.
2. The one compressor can be on board you robot or off board your robot. In all cases the one compressor must be controlled by the RoboRio sensing system pressure.
3. No white Clippard tanks.(P/N: AVT-PP-41)
4. The only pressure switch you may use is a Nason pressure switch, P/N SM-2B-115R/443 under R67-C. Often teams mount this near the outside of the robot, please be sure to insulate the terminals once you have connected your wiring.
5. There are several example drawings in the robot rules for your use.
6. Pneumatic parts may not be modified in any way other than the prescribed use and attachment of tubing adapters and mounting. Painting, filing, gluing, drilling, etc. are considered modifications.
7. If you are using pneumatic parts that are not normal devices, be sure to have manufacturers sheets detailing the max pressure ratings. Home made manifolds do not meet pneumatic rules under R64.
Hope you are getting close to finishing your robots. Bag day is just two days away.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Someone asked this in the 148 reveal thread, and I'm curious, so I'm asking it here: how would a robot like 148's be inspected with regards to numbering? Seems like it's in a bit of a gray area.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

There is another HUGE thread about numbers. Black numbers on a white background, etc. There are three parts to number, they number all three and they are done. I really don't get the mystery over the numbers, it's pretty plain and simple.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

My question was more about multi-part, tethered robots like 148. I get the regular numbering rules, but when a robot has multiple almost-separate components, it could be hard for viewers to tell that they're all part of the same machine.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I know your are an inspector and not a referee, but are we allowed to, during setup on the field, activate our pneumatics systems via pushing the buttons on the solenoids of our robot? I would like to start a match with our pneumatics systems out of the robot, but during transport, no pressure and with pressure, they would be fully contained within the transport configuration.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

A good way to think about this is to find the rule that allows what you want, and think about how you might argue that what you want to do is permitted. If there's some ambiguity, use the Q&A system.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

In R65 (allowed changes to pnumatics), the blue box says: "Do not, for example, paint ... any part of a pneumatic".

I remember a discussion last year about no labels or writing on plastic air tanks. In theory, the ink or adhesive could weaken the tank wall.

However, R65-E allows labeling.

So, can people put stickers, or write, on the air tanks or hoses?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

At a Week 0 event this weekend, I noticed a lot of batteries that were not fully restrained. I mentioned it to the teams, and the typical response is: "Oh, we've driven it, and it doesn't move". At which point I show them the R22 that says the battery must be secured in any arbitrary orientation, including turning the robot upside down.

Teams: Fully secure your battery.

BTW: I also saw one team violate the frame perimeter of another team during autonomous. Robots still need to be protected.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

As a referee AND an inspector...

I allowed it at the SCRRF Scrimmage. The main concern is safety, so make sure your pathway is clear.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

How about getting some shrink tubing, and then writing on that?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I would be slightly concerned that the heat used to activate the shrink tube might damage the tank or hose. I would raise an eyebrow if I was inspecting your robot.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

For those interested in the Viair 250C-IG, Q360 has been answered:

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

As to labeling, labels for pneumatic parts are allowed under rule R65. I don't know hwat purpose a label would be on a tank, unless you store both high and low pressure air. Labels on hoses are the same as electrical wiring, I would guess.

As to using manual control of valves during robot setup, I would think the GDC has answered that in the Q&A. Safety is a major concern so it appears that powered movement (electrical or pneumatic) is not allowed. Hand tools may be used, but I believe that is all. I would suggest you ask the Q&A a specific question to be sure.

As to the 148 robot and numbering. I could only suggest to the team that they would want to play on Saturday afternoon and for that reason some numbering scheme that identifies them to other teams in the stands would be appropriate. Since they have always made a great robot, numbering seems to be a common task for them. I would expect a inspector would find them numbering each part of the robot.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

One team at Week 0 had 4 white pneumatic tanks. I looked at them, and they did not have "clippard" on them. They did have some part numbers on them. I couldn't tell if they were printed by the manufacturer, or suck on (labeler) by the team.

If I was planning to use white tanks, I would want a label that clearly identified them as non-clippard (or an allowable clippard) because they will be asked over and over again.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I apologize if this is explicitly stated elsewhere on CD or if I'm missing it in the manual but I have a materials test to study for... Is it legal to cover pneumatic air tanks and pneumatic cylinders with anything, like say a carbon fiber covering, for aesthetic purposes? The carbon fiber just slips over the tanks and cylinders and doesn't do anything more than make it look cool. Since it's really not a modification would this be legal? I'm asking for a local team who doesn't generally use CD so I don't have a picture of this specific case.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

As a general rule, don't cover things so much that they can't be seen for inspection.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I'm actually going to be a rookie inspector at the same event they will be attending. In my book their setup doesn't do much to hamper the inspection process. The only issue I could see it bringing up would be preventing the inspector from obviously seeing if there is any damage to the air tanks or cylinders. I don't know if that is enough to say they can't do it.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Ryan, have them e-mail me a pic of their setup and the sleeve they want to use, and I can give them some more direct feedback. You've already got my e-mail address :)

In general, I don't see a problem with a sleeve over pneumatic components, provided it can be quickly and easily moved/removed for inspection, it doesn't alter the component in any way, and it doesn't compress the component (like a hose clamp would, for example).

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I'll have them do that thanks!

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

BOM Comment:

KOP items do not have to be listed.

It would be nice if certain KOP items had to be listed, like motors. The reason is: They are limited by part number, and quantity. By explicitly listing them, it is easier to confirm the part number.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

My understanding KOP material has to be on the BOM. The cost is $0.00 so it does not go against the $4000.00

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

This year is different....

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Teach me to read the rules better. ::rtm::

My BOM just got a lot shorter. :)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

That was always my understanding as well but apparently not for 2015.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

This is a change for this year, and personally I both like and dislike it. On the one hand, it makes the BOM shorter and easier... But on the other hand, including KOP items makes it more complete and more closely approximates the real world.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

One more thing on pneumatics I want to put up here, seeing how this is a very popular thread and a LOT of people are reading it, do NOT jump out your Nason Pressure Switch during set up on the field to pre-charge the robot.

Last year, I saw 1 team use a switch that bypassed the Nason Switch to pre charge on the field before a match (and then took the switch out of its socket and the mentor put it in his pocket) and another team use a Leatherman multi tool to jump the 2 wires to pre charge.

This allows teams to over charge (over 120 psi) the system at start up, all the way up to whatever the pressure relief valve was set.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I've also heard this as advertised as a "trick" to get that extra 5-7 psi between the point the switch cuts off (typically 115 or less) to 120. While lawyering of rules in the past may have allowed teams to convince themselves it was legal, I believe it is specifically not this year, based on a combination of:

R63 To satisfy multiple constraints associated with safety, consistency, Inspection, and constructive innovation, no pneumatic parts
other than those explicitly permitted in Section 4.10: Pneumatic System may be used on the ROBOT

(A jumper is not an explicitly permitted pneumatic part)

R65 All pneumatic COMPONENTS must be used in their original, unaltered condition.

(Jumpering the switch is not using it in its original condition)

R77 The pressure switch requirements are:
...
C. The two wires from the pressure switch must be connected directly the pressure switch input of the PCM controlling the compressor or, if controlled using the roboRIO and a Spike relay, to the roboRIO.
D. If connected to the roboRIO, the roboRIO must be programmed to sense the state of the switch and operate the relay module that powers the compressor to prevent over-pressuring the system.

(Jumpering across the switch is not directly connecting it to the PCM or roboRIO)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Agreed. I wish FIRST put a little more emphasis on the BOM, not even from a cost perspective but just from a real world perspective and emphasizing the importance of being accurate and specific. I've started using the BOM as a build-season-long job for rookies on the build team, to get them to learn what all the components are and where they come from, ideally real-time as they are added to the robot. I conveniently didn't tell them about this, and I'm not sure they've read the BOM rules closely enough to realize it themselves. ;) I'd like our BOM to reflect our whole robot.

It would also be nice from an inspection perspective to have all the KOP items listed, especially since the definition of KOP includes any year's checklist, FIRSTChoice, and PDV items. A team could claim pretty much anything falls under one of those categories and I'd be hard pressed to disprove it. I'd like to see teams have to call out what it is and where it's from, even if that is "2002 KOP" or "2013 FIRSTChoice" and the cost is $0.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Remember that it's not your job to disprove it... It's the team's job to prove that their robot is legal. If you're inspecting Wildstang (sorry Al!) And they point to a gizmo and say " We didn't have to list that because it came in the 1995 Kit of Parts", my first question would be " and it still works?" Followed closely by " you mean in the past 20 years you guys have never cleaned house and chucked old stuff? How much storage do you have at your build space?", And finally ending with "could you pull out the KoP checklist from 1995 and show me the part listed there? Like all you kids, I wasn't exactly around FIRST back then..."

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

If it happened this year, I would cite Rule R69" ... the compressor must still be controlled and powered by the ROBOT". Shorting the switch is no longer "controlled" by the ROBOT. I know that R69 talks about off-board compressor. However, the wording includes "still", which implies a condition that exists prior to removing the compressor from the robot.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

The Inspection Checklist includes Software Version numbers for not only the DS and roboRIO, but also for the Talons, Jaguars, PCM, and PDP.

I remember last year finding the DS and cRIO on the dashboard. Do you have instructions for checking the Talons, Jaguars, PCM, and PDP?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

These can be found on the diagnostic tab of the driver station. http://wpilib.screenstepslive.com/s/...ation-software

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Thanks.

If a team is using a Talon or Jag in PWM mode, do we still need to check the firmware version?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

If you are going to argue this then I would say that the inspectors better stop doing it on our robot for inspection while our students are watching. It sets a bad example and gives kids the idea it is an okay method to reach that ever elusive 120 PSI we are allowed.

It wouldn't be too hard to rig a switch that looked official for an inspector to use that gives better control and a more professional appearance over stabbing a screwdriver in there to short the leads.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

The intent of the shorting of the pressure switch by inspectors is to verify the pressure relief valve is set at 120 psi at the event. While I don't endorse teams using a screwdriver to jump the pressure switch, the inspectors are watching the pressure to confirm the relief valve opens at 120 PSI. If the team fails this test, the inspector instructs the team to properly calibrate their relief valve.

I find it important for students and teams to understand that a failed or shorted pressure switch can happen. The inspector testing the circuit by shorting the switch is a valid and important part of the inspection. It is important for teams to understand the failsafes in place in a pneumatic system to reduce the risk of a catastrophic failure.

If it means anything, I never used a screwdriver to short the switch. I always carried a set of alligator clip jumper wires for this since I felt it looked more professional. I also explained to the team why I was testing their pneumatic system and what the ramifications of a failed switch and improperly set pressure relief valve were. The inspector isn't someone charged with failing a team due to mysterious reasoning outside of the watchful eye of the team. The inspector is also responsible for helping teams learn and understand to keep everyone safe.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

EVERY time I do this while inspecting a team, I tell the kids why I am doing it. I am doing it to check the relief valve is relieving when it is supposed to, at about 125psi. That is the ONLY time I want to see a team jump that switch. And I add that if I see them doing it on the field, I will dump their air prior to match startup, after consulting with the Head Ref.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Something Ive always wondered, and I've always gotten different answers to. Is the 125 for the pressure relief valve the pressure it releases to, or the pressure it starts releasing. I've always seen that if its set to never let the pressure go above 125, it usually reliefs down to about 110 psi. If we set it so it wont let the pressure go above 135, if reliefs down to 125. Which method is correct? Some inspectors ive seen want it one way, and some want it another.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

You should not have to worry because it will only reach 125 when being tested.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

There are no firmware requirements for Jaguars used in PWM mode. There are firmware requirements for Talon SRXs in PWM mode (But not Talons or Talon SRs). The Talon SRX user manual gives several methods to determine if the firmware version is less then 0.28.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

The load on the pressure switch is in the milliamps. The electrical danger of shorting the switch is miniscule. It is also clearly against the rules for using this method for charging the air system. To say the observing youth cannot understand the difference is almost silly. :]

Now if you are using a screwdriver to bypass the worn out solenoid on your VW Beetle's starter motor....

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Yeah, but if you have it set to never let the pressure go above 125, depending on the pressure switch, the relief will start letting out pressure before the switch detects its at full pressure. We've had to go find different pressure switches before, because the switch would trigger at 115, but the relief valve started releasing air at 110, in order to make it so pressure never got above 125.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I've seen several inspectors flip out over this one.

The KOP release valve also doesn't always trigger at exactly the same psi, which has caused some inspectors to ask us to keep adjusting it.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I always set the cracking pressure, the pressure that the relief first opens to 125 PSI. The full flow pressure is somewhat higher. The re-seat pressure is usually somewhat lower. If the pressure is different at inspection, we adjust to accommodate the inspector. It is not a precision device. You do not want the cracking pressure anywhere near the working pressure.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

^What this guy said.

The specific wording "... to release air at 125psi..." is the key phrase. Does the valve release air at 125psi (or lower)? If yes, you're good to go. If no, then you're illegal. Thus I would wager your first setup to be correct, where it opens at 125psi and closes at 110psi. Allowing the pressure to reach 135 psi is CLEARLY a violation of the rules [R76] blue box.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I'm hearing reports of robots using > 7 MB/S (Rule R49) which seem to be causing other robots to lose comms and reset. There's no penalty listed for the rule, if it's identified by FMS during a match it seems like they shouldn't be allowed to compete until they correct it, but how do you test it?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

That's the way I've always done it. The goal is to keep pressures safe and for the relief valve never to release air unless there is a problem with system, i.e. the stored air reaches above 125psi.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

WoW! I go on vacation for a few days to Duluth and the thread goes wild. So first to a few answers,
Jon, We don't have as much storage as we used to and do have stuff that goes most of the way back. We're resourceful and nostalgic. (OK so I am)
Shorting out the pressure switch is the prescribed method for checking the over pressure valve as described by FIRST staff and that method has been used since the manufacturer stopped supplying the valve pre-calibrated. A good team member or inspector will check that the valve vents above 125 psi after calibration and tightening of the lock ring. It is not calibrated if it vents below 125 psi.
Shorting out the pressure switch, attaching another compressor or bypassing the robot control system to charge the pneumatic system in queue or on the field has never been legal. Do not listen to the team that tells you it is. There are considerable penalties in the rules (game, robot and tournament).

Now on to a few items that were issues during week one.
Latest, greatest firmware.
The most recent version of the Inspection Checklist has a great list of the all the firmware required for this week of competition. If and when that changes, the Checklist will be updated. Go to the appropriate website now and download the firmware versions for the PDP, PCM, RoboRio, Jag and Talon, and driver station. Bring those with you so you can load them prior to inspection. The version numbers are displayed on the Dashboard diagnostic tab.

Software Versions – Software/firmware for devices is at or above listed versions (As of March 2, 2015)
Driver Station – 08021500 or newer <R80> (Note the version number is a date in the format of, DD/MM/YY00)
roboRIO – v23 and 2.1.0f3 <R45>
Talon SRX – v.28 for PWM, v1.01 for CAN <R41, R59>
Jaguars – v109 <R59>
PCM – v1.62 <R60>
PDP – v1.37 <R61>

Team Numbers,
Must be 3.5 inches high or greater, 1/2" stroke or greater and must be black on white background with 1" (white) border all the way around. Nearly half of all robots at Duluth needed number adjustments.

We saw some teams show up with old, white pneumatic storage tanks. While the manufacturer was giving free exchange for tanks last year, that is no longer taking place. You will be required to replace any old tanks prior to competing.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

We have none clippard white tanks. They were legal last year. Are all white tanks now disallowed?, or still just the clippard white tanks?

Also. When we went to do our checklist and update our firmware on bag and tag day, we noticed that the pdp doesn't who up anywhere (DS, or on the web interface thingy). Does anyone know of a solution to this? or should we be ordering a new pdp for comp?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

You must connect the PDP to the RoboRio via CAN even if you do not use the CAN buss for anything else. The PDP data collection function will be used in logs for other purposes and needs to be connected and the firmware up to date.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

You are correct that R49 has no penalty associated with it. That might be a good QA question- I would assume that the answer is that they will not be allowed to play if it is repeated or causing problems for other teams.

Generally if I see a team using > 7 Mb/s, I let them know they need to fix it, and it stops being a problem. If it happens a second time, I'll send a CSA after them, and that is the end of it.

WPI has a page on how to measure bandwidth usage.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

We had it connected via can. (I was told by the electrical person that it was correctly and securely connected) Hopefully it was just a bad connections or wire. However, is it possible that the pdp can is broken, but the pdp is still functional?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Just to be clear, which of the 2 methods described by Thad House is correct? Should it begin venting at ~115psi, or at 125psi?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Batt,
It is possible to have a problem in wiring or to have an issue with the CAN bus interfaces. I suggest checking the user's manual for the PDP first and then try checking with CTRE to see if there is something else that you can check.

The correct operation is to vent at 125 psi or above. This part has a repeatability of +/- at least 2 psi. A good indication is a wet finger on top of the valve. Venting will cause some bubbles.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Just the Clippard White Tanks. However, if you have white tanks, it should be easily evident that they are not the Clippard ones.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Calibrating the relief valve in this way means that the pressure on the stored side could exceed 125psi if the pressure switch were to fail. Should it concern us that many pneumatic components like the kit tubing are only rated for 125psi?

My understanding of the relief valve was that it would provide a safeguard if the pressure switch were to fail. Calibrating it as you described means that it is not protecting the components rated for 125psi.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

The Georgia Southern Classic last weekend, we had several PDPs that would not talk over CAN. Confirmed correct connections/wiring by several CSAs (orange hats). The FTA eventually said to pass them without coms to the PDP.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

The working pressure of the components is 125 PSI. Slightly exceeding this is not an issue. From a practical point of view anything less than 140 is slightly. (Not to say your system should ever reach 140.) If one is really concerned about this, they should not be using small, cheap, uncalibrated pressure gauges to set these things.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

I know that we need to ask q&a, but do all parts of our robot have be connected to each other after we place it on the field and at the start of the match?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

When the match starts and after that, yes. You can have separate parts while setting up though.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Not only that, but they have to stay connected. Otherwise, it would be a violation of G25.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Yes, if you define "functional" to mean that it distributes power to the branch circuits. The color of the two LEDs on the PDP will help tell you if it is functioning the rest of the way. Blinking red means no CAN communication. Blinking yellow means disabled. Off means it's probably broken.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Off-Topic but leads into the above:

What I want to know is how in the heck do I clear a blinking orange from a previous brown-out? I can find that it is a "sticky" condition but no clear instructions/how-to on how to clear it. I've seen something that says go into the CAN page for the PDP can continuously refresh it and it magically clears...no dice when I tried it.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Close. "Double clicking" Self-Test (which may actually take repeated clicking to register properly) will clear sticky faults.

You should also be able to clear them from code, obviously doing so each time the code starts would eliminate the point, but linking a dashboard control or button to clearing may be useful if you don't want to fiddle with the button on the webdashboard.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Al, in our pit at northern lights last weekend you asked about how warm the 250c and its hose got during use. When the kids got back to the pits after a match, I checked the head and it was just a little warm. the hose was cool. I then had them tether it and ran it at about 100psi for 2:30 by venting a bit of air out the dump valve. The head was warm but still very comfortable to touch. the connection to the braided hose was warm and the braided hose was still cool to the touch.

I was checking our robot for final problems and noticed the white background extends only 3/4 of an inch at some points. If I velcro a peice of a larger foam sheet behind it will it count as part of the 1 inch.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Most likely, I would say so. The key is that the numbers need 1" of white space around them, and there are no specific requirements that the 1" all be on the same plane as the numbers.


Not related to above:
Just so Al doesn't have to:

If you are making modifications, make SURE to get reinspected! (Except as allowed by T10 A-F). No matter how minor the modification, if it isn't an allowed exception, re-inspect. And if a ref asks you if you got reinspected after a modification--be honest, it makes life easier on everybody.

I plan on bringing the foam precut with the rest of the modification stuff. It would be a matter of about 2 minutes to put on so I'd do it before we got inspected.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Wasn't referencing you--sorry, should have made that clear.


Let's just say that there was one team that gave us a little trouble along those lines at a couple of points--the second time, they HAD been reinspected but we had a hard time finding the paperwork.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Taping a white piece of paper onto it would work for me.

Haha well that would kinda take away from the work I did to make the number plates to begin with.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Ben,
Thanks for the report, it would seem that the hose is doing it's job.

Even white gaffer's tape works for extending the border. It is ugly but it satisfies the rule.

Any changes that you think are minor may be a major change in the eyes of other competitors. Please check with the RI's before you make the change. We had some great teams who constantly worked on their robots in Duluth this weekend. They were coming and weighing parts that they were planning for modification. If we see it first, we can tell you if it is legal and a good way to attach it to your robot so that re-inspection will be painless. Thank you to all the Duluth teams who were re-inspected prior to the end of qualifying.

The procedure for calibrating the pressure relief valve will not overly stress your pneumatic system. Many parts, tubing included, list the 'working' pressure. "Burst' pressure is far above that. The tubing at room temperature is generally rated for 150-165 psi as I remember. The relief valve is in circuit as you would expect. It the software, pressure switch or compressor controller were to fail and the compressor was running constantly, the pressure would never exceed burst pressure for any components. Under certain conditions, a second pressure relief valve is required for components that have a reduced burst pressure. See R66.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Al - I meant to ask up in Duluth, but forgot while we were up there... could you explain the reasoning behind R66D?
I'm just wondering what the second pressure relief valve does that our relieving regulator doesn't already do. Is it required incase the relieving regulator fails to relieve? The first pressure relief valve is required to be attached to the compressor through hard fittings, but the second one can be anywhere on the low pressure side, connected through tubing.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015
 

Jon,
There is some solenoid valves that are designed to be run at 25-45 psi. The rules allow a team to use a second regulator that is down stream from the main regulator to supply this much lower pressure. The rules do not require that secondary regulators be relieving. So to protect a failure in these low pressure components, FIRST Engineering decided to add the secondary relief valve should a failure occur. Such a failure could cause pressure in excess of the burst pressure of these other solenoid valves. I think in the past few years I have only seen one or two robots with these valves. They may be more common in other countries than here in the US.