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-   -   Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134357)

connor.worley 12-02-2015 16:09
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
This was posted in one of the previous threads on the subject of handicapping teams: https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonB...geron_djvu.txt

Abhishek R 12-02-2015 16:11
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442706)
OOOHHH! Life isn't fair I'm told. How many of you squawking that sentiment have access to a sponsor with CNC equipment? Consider yourself lucky. And I'm willing to make a large wager most teams don't. We had one once. But with the economy as it is, they couldn't support us any longer. So we adapted to what we have. And then there is the lack of machine shops. Kansas City use to have shops scattered throughout the city. Not any more. Most of that work has moved to Mexico or China. I started working in a machine shop back in 1974. I have seen and experienced the change. And I don't see NASA building a shop here anytime soon.

Getting back to the rules, for the Robot:

4.4 Budget Constraints
R9 The total cost of all items on the ROBOT shall not exceed $4000 USD. All costs are to be determined as explained in Section
4.4: Budget Constraints. Exceptions are as follows:
A. individual COTS items that are less than $1 USD each and
B. KOP items

R11 The BOM cost of each non-KOP item must be calculated based on the unit fair market value for the material and/or labor,
except for labor provided by Team members (including sponsor employees who are members of the team), members of other
Teams, event provided Machine Shops and shipping.

How many Squawkers here could build a robot for less than $4000 if they had to count CNC machining time at $100+ per hour and all materials? (Programming and run time for just 1 or 2 parts would be even more costly.) Very few in my estimation. I don't care if you continue to use your machine shop sponser, you just need to count it in your budget.

Do they have rules in other sports to even the playing field? Yes they do! Ever heard of "salary caps"? NASCAR has a host of rules to keep the cars alike. Do I need to go on?

So there you have it. Life is either the 'haves' or the 'have nots'. The 'haves' never want to change the rules because they would lose their advantage. Seems to work out the same in First.
I wish we had a CNC machine or sponsor. But we don't. In fact, we don't really have any machining sponsors to whom we send our parts - we really just cut everything out in our own shop in order to build our robot. And it's not even an actual machine shop - it's a space we rent out of a strip mall in which we've moved all our equipment into that we've gathered over the history of our team. And that's completely fine with us.

I understand your point, but I'd rather not see a rule change because without a doubt, those robots that do look absolutely beautiful, whether they were made by 50+ engineers or not, are like works of art and I'd hate to see them disappear because they're so inspiring to me.

AdamHeard 12-02-2015 16:18
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442706)
OOOHHH! Life isn't fair I'm told. How many of you squawking that sentiment have access to a sponsor with CNC equipment? Consider yourself lucky. And I'm willing to make a large wager most teams don't. We had one once. But with the economy as it is, they couldn't support us any longer. So we adapted to what we have. And then there is the lack of machine shops. Kansas City use to have shops scattered throughout the city. Not any more. Most of that work has moved to Mexico or China. I started working in a machine shop back in 1974. I have seen and experienced the change. And I don't see NASA building a shop here anytime soon.

Getting back to the rules, for the Robot:

4.4 Budget Constraints
R9 The total cost of all items on the ROBOT shall not exceed $4000 USD. All costs are to be determined as explained in Section
4.4: Budget Constraints. Exceptions are as follows:
A. individual COTS items that are less than $1 USD each and
B. KOP items

R11 The BOM cost of each non-KOP item must be calculated based on the unit fair market value for the material and/or labor,
except for labor provided by Team members (including sponsor employees who are members of the team), members of other
Teams, event provided Machine Shops and shipping.

How many Squawkers here could build a robot for less than $4000 if they had to count CNC machining time at $100+ per hour and all materials? (Programming and run time for just 1 or 2 parts would be even more costly.) Very few in my estimation. I don't care if you continue to use your machine shop sponser, you just need to count it in your budget.

Do they have rules in other sports to even the playing field? Yes they do! Ever heard of "salary caps"? NASCAR has a host of rules to keep the cars alike. Do I need to go on?

So there you have it. Life is either the 'haves' or the 'have nots'. The 'haves' never want to change the rules because they would lose their advantage. Seems to work out the same in First.
There is a quote something along the lines of, "there are no victims, only volunteers".

Go get some CNC sponsors if you want, or pay per hour for waterjet (we've done it), or get some machines in house (fundraise or get them donated), etc... etc...

Don't ask others to be limited because they put in the work to gain access to more resources than you have.

Jon Stratis 12-02-2015 16:20
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
I'd love to get to a point where the robot was designed fully in CAD and a sponsor made all the parts. As it is, almost all of our parts are made in-house by the team. We did some CNC in our second and third years, but moved away from it because it was an all-mentor effort. We felt the team got more out of the program doing the work themselves, and none of us were really up to the task of teaching CAD so they could do it themselves. We've since been gradually increasing our student CAD capabilities, mostly through our 3D printer's. We might start having students sending designs to be CNC'd next year it so.

Karthik 12-02-2015 16:22
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442706)
OOOHHH! Life isn't fair I'm told. How many of you squawking that sentiment have access to a sponsor with CNC equipment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442706)
How many Squawkers here could build a robot for less than $4000 if they had to count CNC machining time at $100+ per hour and all materials? (Programming and run time for just 1 or 2 parts would be even more costly.) Very few in my estimation. I don't care if you continue to use your machine shop sponser, you just need to count it in your budget.
Our group of "squawkers" won a World Championship in 2008 without access to a sponsor with CNC equipment.

Since then we've gone out and acquired a fantastic sheet metal sponsor. The performance of our robots hasn't changed, just the process that we go through to build them.

JamesCH95 12-02-2015 16:25
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442706)
OOOHHH! Life isn't fair I'm told. How many of you squawking that sentiment have access to a sponsor with CNC equipment? Consider yourself lucky. And I'm willing to make a large wager most teams don't. We had one once. But with the economy as it is, they couldn't support us any longer. So we adapted to what we have. And then there is the lack of machine shops. Kansas City use to have shops scattered throughout the city. Not any more. Most of that work has moved to Mexico or China. I started working in a machine shop back in 1974. I have seen and experienced the change.

Getting back to the rules, for the Robot:

4.4 Budget Constraints
R9 The total cost of all items on the ROBOT shall not exceed $4000 USD. All costs are to be determined as explained in Section
4.4: Budget Constraints. Exceptions are as follows:
A. individual COTS items that are less than $1 USD each and
B. KOP items

R11 The BOM cost of each non-KOP item must be calculated based on the unit fair market value for the material and/or labor,
except for labor provided by Team members (including sponsor employees who are members of the team), members of other
Teams, event provided Machine Shops and shipping.

How many Squawkers here could build a robot for less than $4000 if they had to count CNC machining time at $100+ per hour and all materials? (Programming and run time for just 1 or 2 parts would be even more costly.) Very few in my estimation. I don't care if you continue to use your machine shop sponser, you just need to count it in your budget.

Do they have rules in other sports to even the playing field? Yes they do! Ever heard of "salary caps"? NASCAR has a host of rules to keep the cars alike. Do I need to go on?

So there you have it. Life is either the 'haves' or the 'have nots'. The 'haves' never want to change the rules because they would lose their advantage. Seems to work out the same in First.
Well, apparently I'm a squawker, and my team makes virtually all of our parts in-house. Occasionally I'll make a part in my garage. We have no in-kind machining sponsors, CNC or otherwise. We never have, and we probably never will.

5 years ago we worked out of a classroom. Currently we are working in a high school vocational shop with manual and CNC mills and lathes, a CNC plasma cutter, numerous shop tools, TIG and MIG welding, and a supply section of fasteners, pneumatic parts, sheet metal, extrusions, and so on. We have built a strong relationship with the vocational school that's been years in the making.

And you are correct in that many sports have rules to keep certain aspects even enough to be interesting. However, there are still many ways in which those sports are very un-even. There are still power-houses in every sort of competition I can think of. Does it stop the underdogs from winning? Absolutely not. Should the best be cut down so that others may rise? Absolutely not. Should the best teams follow the rules? Absolutely yes.

The rules say a "fair market value" not a "fair one-off prototyping value." The intent of the rule is to account for the cost of an item as if it were mass-produced. This, actually, helps level the playing field! For example, my team has use of a CNC plasma cutter, other teams' sponsors have CNC waterjet tables. These machines can be used to make VERY similar parts, but the water jet is MUCH more expensive to run. Does that mean that the water jet team has to account for 10x the cost of a part that is nearly the same as what we made with a CNC plasma cutter because their sponsor only has a waterjet? No. They bill a 'fair market value' for their parts, as do we.

MrJohnston 12-02-2015 16:26
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
mentorDon:

Have you:
Had students make presentations to the school board?
Had students make presentations at your local rotary?
Had students make presentations at your chamber of commerce?
Call these guys: http://www.kcnext.com/
Is there a local community or technical college with a machine shop?
Have you tried your school's PTA?
Made presentations to potential incoming freshman?
Reached out to your students' parents for support?

These things are generally easy to set up - and adults in tech fields *love* to listen to high school kids who are excited about building robots.
A tax-deductible give of $2000 is generally nothing to a business, but a huge boost to a robotics team. Just call them and make a presentation. Yes, request monetary help, but do the presentation whether help is promised or not - you are more than likely going to make contacts who can help through their work. I'm not saying its easy, but there are opportunities in Kansas City. You just have to make your team known to the right people.

Akash Rastogi 12-02-2015 16:33
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442706)
OOOHHH! Life isn't fair I'm told. How many of you squawking that sentiment have access to a sponsor with CNC equipment? Consider yourself lucky. And I'm willing to make a large wager most teams don't. We had one once. But with the economy as it is, they couldn't support us any longer. So we adapted to what we have. And then there is the lack of machine shops. Kansas City use to have shops scattered throughout the city. Not any more. Most of that work has moved to Mexico or China. I started working in a machine shop back in 1974. I have seen and experienced the change. And I don't see NASA building a shop here anytime soon.

Getting back to the rules, for the Robot:

4.4 Budget Constraints
R9 The total cost of all items on the ROBOT shall not exceed $4000 USD. All costs are to be determined as explained in Section
4.4: Budget Constraints. Exceptions are as follows:
A. individual COTS items that are less than $1 USD each and
B. KOP items

R11 The BOM cost of each non-KOP item must be calculated based on the unit fair market value for the material and/or labor,
except for labor provided by Team members (including sponsor employees who are members of the team), members of other
Teams, event provided Machine Shops and shipping.

How many Squawkers here could build a robot for less than $4000 if they had to count CNC machining time at $100+ per hour and all materials? (Programming and run time for just 1 or 2 parts would be even more costly.) Very few in my estimation. I don't care if you continue to use your machine shop sponser, you just need to count it in your budget.

Do they have rules in other sports to even the playing field? Yes they do! Ever heard of "salary caps"? NASCAR has a host of rules to keep the cars alike. Do I need to go on?

So there you have it. Life is either the 'haves' or the 'have nots'. The 'haves' never want to change the rules because they would lose their advantage. Seems to work out the same in First.
When I was starting out in FRC I had a conversation with a couple very well known mentors. The discussion focused around gaining resources and how resources can make a difference. The biggest surprise for me at the time came from one of these mentors telling me that no matter how hard some teams work, they simply cannot attain the same resources as others. This is simply true in many areas of the US, as you have stated. However, machining resources don't make good robots. They make the process easier, and the designs perhaps a little more complex, but the fundamental strategies and robot designs don't have to be. There are plenty of teams whose biggest resource is the PEOPLE. Good people, motivated people, and people who want to learn are the ones who make good robots. You can have a small budget and minimal resources, and still build a very competitive machine. You don't have to have the same machining resources at your disposal, or the engineering experience (although it helps more than machines), but you can still learn as much as possible from the best out there and become great yourself.

Word of advice though, when you do want people to hear you out on a very valid point, try not calling them squawkers or other names. With a more subtle tone in your posts, your point would have come across much better. Like I said, your point of view is very valid in the sense that not all teams can achieve the same level of resources because of their area and whatnot. I don't think cutting others off from their resources works either though.

mentorDon 12-02-2015 16:39
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1442721)
Our group of "squawkers" won a World Championship in 2008 without access to a sponsor with CNC equipment.

Since then we've gone out and acquired a fantastic sheet metal sponsor. The performance of our robots hasn't changed, just the process that we go through to build them.
I'm looking at pictures of your 2008 robot on your teams website. Did you make those nice angle cuts in the main arm with a file? Or perhaps you used a CNC waterjet or a CNC plasma cutter? Nice try.

http://www.simbotics.org/media/photo...-regional/2166

Mike Marandola 12-02-2015 16:44
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442741)
I'm looking at pictures of your 2008 robot on your teams website. Did you make those nice angle cuts in the main arm with a file? Or perhaps you used a CNC waterjet or a CNC plasma cutter? Nice try.

http://www.simbotics.org/media/photo...-regional/2166
Many teams have in house CNC equipment.

Akash Rastogi 12-02-2015 16:44
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442741)
I'm looking at pictures of your 2008 robot on your teams website. Did you make those nice angle cuts in the main arm with a file? Or perhaps you used a CNC waterjet or a CNC plasma cutter? Nice try.

http://www.simbotics.org/media/photo...-regional/2166
He said without a sponsor.

Also, that robot would have won a championship even without pretty lightening patterns. They could have handed a kid a hole saw and still won in 2008. At this point you're just not even trying to look at the bigger picture.

mentorDon 12-02-2015 16:46
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesCH95 (Post 1442728)
Well, apparently I'm a squawker, and my team makes virtually all of our parts in-house. Occasionally I'll make a part in my garage. We have no in-kind machining sponsors, CNC or otherwise. We never have, and we probably never will.

5 years ago we worked out of a classroom. Currently we are working in a high school vocational shop with manual and CNC mills and lathes, a CNC plasma cutter, numerous shop tools, TIG and MIG welding, and a supply section of fasteners, pneumatic parts, sheet metal, extrusions, and so on. We have built a strong relationship with the vocational school that's been years in the making.

And you are correct in that many sports have rules to keep certain aspects even enough to be interesting. However, there are still many ways in which those sports are very un-even. There are still power-houses in every sort of competition I can think of. Does it stop the underdogs from winning? Absolutely not. Should the best be cut down so that others may rise? Absolutely not. Should the best teams follow the rules? Absolutely yes.

The rules say a "fair market value" not a "fair one-off prototyping value." The intent of the rule is to account for the cost of an item as if it were mass-produced. This, actually, helps level the playing field! For example, my team has use of a CNC plasma cutter, other teams' sponsors have CNC waterjet tables. These machines can be used to make VERY similar parts, but the water jet is MUCH more expensive to run. Does that mean that the water jet team has to account for 10x the cost of a part that is nearly the same as what we made with a CNC plasma cutter because their sponsor only has a waterjet? No. They bill a 'fair market value' for their parts, as do we.
The current rule is if a sponsor makes it, you don't have to account for the cost in your $4000 budget.

mentorDon 12-02-2015 16:48
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1442745)
He said without a sponsor.

Also, that robot would have won a championship even without pretty lightening patterns. At this point you're just not even trying to look at the bigger picture.
So I'm assuming that the 'school' had a really nice metal shop?

xXhunter47Xx 12-02-2015 16:48
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mentorDon (Post 1442741)
I'm looking at pictures of your 2008 robot on your teams website. Did you make those nice angle cuts in the main arm with a file? Or perhaps you used a CNC waterjet or a CNC plasma cutter? Nice try.

http://www.simbotics.org/media/photo...-regional/2166
Maybe the piece was a COTS part, or someone with a steady hand used a dremel and a cutoff wheel. They might even have in house CNC stuff. There's a saying about assuming and something something.

mentorDon 12-02-2015 16:49
Re: Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Marandola (Post 1442744)
Many teams have in house CNC equipment.
Most don't


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