2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

In the spirit of this thread, I'm curious what teams have learned from Week Zero events. I'll try to post my thoughts later.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Random thoughts from watching the video feed on a projector, as we continued to build and test ...

1. Wow, that field is a mess!
2. Noodles fly farther than I would have guessed
3. Some matches, the unprocessed litter will be more points than stack points
4. Mecanums may have some issues getting through the sea of litter
5. 100 points will be a very good match
6. Totes from the chute door (yes, chute door) create an obstacle if you can't capture it effectively

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Just got home in a snowstorm from the Suffield Shakedown.

Lessons learned:

- Coopertition points will get you the seeding that you want. Stacks are easy to make on the step. Sets won't happen.

- Landfill congestion will conspire against you in gaining Coopertition points.

- Placing a recycle container on a tote stack triples its value. Worth it.

- In a 2:15 match, it is difficult to make more than one stack per Robot with a recycling container. The higher the stack, the more time it takes.

- Robots build higher stacks by placing multiple totes on each other.

- Alliances with a well coordinated game plan will succeed in increasing their Qualification Averages.

- There are openings in the plexiglass between alliance teams to facilitate communication.

- Human Player loading can be more efficient than gathering off of the field.

- The noodles that we had seemed more dense than our KOP noodles and could easily make it all the way to the other driver station.

- Noodles can be placed in recycle containers by the Human Players, but it is quicker if the containers are tipped towards the slot. Human Players were bending the noodles to more easily place them in the containers.

- Noodles accounted for almost half of the match points.

- Noodles get chewed up by mecanums with their lateral; shear forces.

- Noodles really mess with Robot mobility.

- Autonomous scoring is harder than you think. We saw none. Tote and Robot sets are the best most can hope for. The autonomous zone is a tight space and the scoring platforms mess with your positioning in the zone.

- Center of Gravity plays a big role and makes the scoring activities quite exciting.

- It's a great game, but difficult for spectators to understand the scoring.

- Ranking is where there will be drama. Did an alliance score above or below their Qualification Average? That will move them up or down as the competition progresses.


What I would change?
Too many totes on the field, but I guess that is part of the challenge.
I would remove a row of totes from the Landfill zone and the step and make them all upright.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Was there a reason the human player stations were installed backward?

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Was the Litter used at this event not the same as the official litter that will be used during week 1? We have not been able to throw our litter more than 30 feet.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

As a rookie, I got to learn so much from my first FRC season event, especially when it came to approaching/scouting other teams.

1. The vast majority of robots (at least at our scrimmage) used mechanum wheels
2. Said mechanum wheeled robots have more trouble getting over scoring platforms than I expected.
3. There were more elevator lift designs than I expected, so teams using them will need to put in more effort in getting their robot noticed by scouts.
4. Making tote stacks definitely took much longer than I thought
5. We visited two practice fields today. The first one had a handful of teams utilizing brushes on the front of their robots to push litter, while I don't recall any teams at the second event having those. I wonder if the Atlanta teams have been exchanging design ideas.
6. Can anyone pick up the upside down totes?
7. People at FRC events loveloveloveloveLOVE to dance the Cupid Shuffle.
8. It's very hard not to join the crowd of people doing the Cupid Shuffle.

All things considered, we really got to refine our our game strategies and practice for Chairman's. (Thanks GeorgiaFIRST!) Also, shout-out to the rest of the teams attending either the Atlanta or Walton pre-ship scrimmages. You guys were super kind and awesome to talk to!

Feeling fairly confident for the upcoming regionals. Palmetto and Peachtree, here we come!

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Why recycle when you can throw trash into your neighbor's lawn?

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Cause the neighbor is a worker for the city...

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

My dad works for the City of San Jose and our neighbors always seem to be leaving trash and trimmings on our side of the yard. :rolleyes:

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Watching the Suffield Shakedown webcast:

• Stacks are not easy to make, or make in quantity
• Many stacks will be made without RCs on them, which might not be worth the effort
• RCs are easy to knock over accidentally
• Coopertition is HUGE
• Coopertition is easily defeated by litter or someone breaking up the landfill for seemingly no reason / benefit
• Autonomous is nearly dead, but this may be a side-effect of it being week zero

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

The whole field is a mess. We've been practicing over the past week in a wide open area, and I don't think that helped our drivers at all for driving in a match. We should have just grabbed a bunch of random chairs and tables and threw them around our practice area.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

The orientation of totes coming out of the chute was a big problem for us, slowing us down to 1 stack per match.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

#6 We can..saw it work many times in testing

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

The field at Suffield was not right for half the time. After lunch they fixed it but the human player station is supposed to be flipped. We brought this up to the FTA there and they decided to just play with it flipped. Also the noodles at the shakedown were not official ones, the ones used were stiffer then the official ones received in the KOP.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

I did not go to a week zero, but we went to Code Red and used their Half Field, Noticed that when totes fell from a great height, the zipties broke alot. Also, if a 6 tote stack falls, it could become dangerous if you are nearby...especially for a robot.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

What do you mean it was flipped?

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

The chutes were on the "outside" of the field when they should have been on the "inside", ie they were farther from the driver stations than they should be.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of what you mean?

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Compare the stream with the field drawings.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

So the Tote shoot was closer to the outer edge/wall than closer to the driver station, where it should be.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

-The field is small - cluttered.
-The view from the driver stations become very limited quickly (especially if 3130 is on your alliance)
-Coopertition is key.
-Drivers will have to make those robots dance! Hope you get enough time to practice (or have a robot ballerina that can pirouette)!

*Plus many of the robots at CenturionKrawler (2472&2052) were the size of horses - ours included.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

After practicing a while and making stacks, we realized quickly that it is very hard to see if you start making stacks in front of your driver station.
The field seems very small using just 1/2 of it.

Too bad we didnt get transparent totes!

One thing we noticed, where we made adjustments to our devices that grab the totes.....Some of the totes have tabs on the sides that are smashed in. We got them like that when shipped to us.
It makes a difference if teams are inserting "tabs" to grab/lift bins.
We are now accounting for it not knowing what kind of totes will be on the playing field at various events.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

The Corvallis (Oregon) High School Week 0 event went quite well for us!

Here are a couple things I noticed:

• The field does get quite messy
• There are some teams that specialize in one thing (e.g. just getting RC's)
• Getting totes from the feeder station is a lot easier than getting them from the Landfill (for our team)
• We were able to make 2 stacks of 3 totes (with an RC and litter) within the Teleop time
• Throwing the litter is pointless. It just gets on your side of the field and none of the robots we able to move it into the landfill
• Looking at the point above, I hope nobody will try to throw the litter and waste it (when they could go into RC's)
• For feeder station bots (like ours), it's hard to line up perfectly with the angle that the driver station is to the feeder

That's all I can think of for now. I think we learned a lot about strategies (e.g. working with specialized alliance partners to save steps) as well. Very informative!

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Can you elaborate on this? Do you have any pictures of what you're talking about?

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

From MN's Event today - I agree with some of your points, but have differing opinions on others.

1. Yes - the field will be a mess.
2. We had exactly '0' RC grapplers work (although 3130 had the apparatus - just didn't get to see it work). So if you are seeing success in your area, that means there is hope!
3. In our Week Zero a few had success with HP Loading zone - most were field pick-up without a lot of success.
4. Cycling (3-4 totes stacked) is difficult with most teams.
5. throwing litter can be effective if you practice. We had a lot of litter at the end of the day in each match.
6. Lining up with the HP Station is EXTREMELY difficult just using the perspective from the driver stations.

About 80% of the teams were Ri3d clones - many were Greenhorns. We did see a number with the Team Indiana forks.

Nice to see things working in the Pacific Northwest! Good Luck to your team this season!

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

It sounds like he's talking about the misshapen tote flanges being discussed at the Warped Yellow Totes thread.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

One more thought about Week Zero Events from the Suffield Shakedown:

With the new control system, we weren't able to use even FMS Lite.

A decision was made to do 5:00 minute matches, we scrapped the schedule, and basically did a filler line approach. Some Robots were on the field every 15 minutes.
While a longer match time doesn't prepare a drive team for the time constraints of an actual competition, this gave teams a substantial amount of practice throughout the day and every match had a full complement of 6 teams. Batteries were exhausted and mechanisms well tested in a match environment.

There was unanimous praise from the mentors and students for this approach.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

This game is incredibly boring to watch... but I think most of us suspected that. Hopefully I'm proven wrong in the coming weeks.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Possible strategy for week one events: get your human player to grab all 10 noodles at the beginning of the match and either a) clutch them and curl into the fetal position or b) jump into the can holding the noodles (potential G16) just to make sure no overzealous partner starts chucking them 5 feet in front of your HP station and damaging your calm.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

I saw that right before I posted, actually. Yes that was a very cool design and I can't wait to see it live in action.

So the top 25 will be fun to watch, as usual. But I prefer games in which the whole season was entertaining, and also very easy to explain to our non-FIRST spectators.

Things I hated most about Lunacy was the over-emphasized human players, the incredibly complex scoring to explain, and the themed game concept. This game has all of that going for it PLUS no defense/interaction, and no wins/losses. Not even close to being like a sport.

Again, hope I'm proven wrong admittedly I have before). But if the matches I see in two weeks are like the ones I watched today, I will be falling asleep.

The game is just not for me. I prefer the edge-of-your-seat intensity of some previous games. Others may not enjoy that as much. We'll see.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

I generally agree with everything you said. I joined FRC in 2013 and my first FIRST experiance was in 2012. I have been incredibly lucky in the sense that the last 3 games have been amongst the best 3 games IMO. I more or less posted that because I was simply that blown away by 148.

While I'm awake at 2:30 AM I don't see why I can't also recap my experience at the Centurion-KnightKrawler week 0 event:
-The field is way smaller than I anticipated (not actually but the totes and massive robots do a pretty good job of cluttering what little area we started with)
- I misread the game in a sense that I assumed most teams would design their robots to play nice with the chute door, yes, chute door. At the event I attended it seemed as though the opposite was true. Most teams were built for the landfill and seemed to have difficulty with what I thought was the easier way to acquire totes.
- The difference between active mechanisms and passive mechanisms for acquiring totes is night and day. Active mechanisms just worked so much more efficiently
- Robots seemed to be a lot more "together" than they were at the same time last year. I don't know if that's a result of an easier challenge or some other factor that I don't currently have the mental capacity to think about.
- Big robots (they are almost all big) need to be careful in their maneuvers. Driver practice is always important, but I think it's integral to the success of a team this year, more so than usual.

Other points that have already been covered: Coopertition is massive, liter is unexpectedly valuable (at least unexpected for me) etc.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

This is like a sport, if you consider skiing, golf, or figure skating. In these sports, you cumulative performances increase or decrease your rankings.

There is also vying for a playoff position as a season or competition winds down based upon your remaining match performances. This happens in Hockey, Basketball, Baseball, Football (American & everyone else), the Olympics, and...need I go on?

Admittedly, this is not what we are used to in FIRST, but it adds a meta-game to our strategy and scouting sessions that will hurt our brains, but make them stronger.

Aerial Assist had similar responses last year in Week Zero.

You may want to try caffeine or dancing to forestall your soporific inclinations. :)

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

After watching the scrimmage yesterday this has the potential to be the worst game in my 13 years of FIRST. Then I saw 148's robot and gave my opinion a temporary restraining order from judgement.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

You guys as well!

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

I think many early season matches will be "won" by alliances doing stacks of 1 or 2 totes while their opponents work on tall stacks they cannot cap with a rc bin efficiently. A stack of 6 high looks really impressive, but is worth the same amount of points as just pushing 6 totes an any platform.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

- Not much time to do a lot so cooperation will likely be key for max points.
- Better to have a robot designed not to have to be perfectly precise with tote or bin grabbing
- Watch that you don't knock down stacks and waste time, be efficient.
- You can fairly easily load a bin with a noodle from a human station.
- A four stack with bin and noodle can be done in under 1 minute.
- Noodle throwing is at best hard to score.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

This sums up my feelings exactly.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

By a select few teams.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

I didn't get to go to a week 0 event this year, so I have a question for people who did. What would you say the MCC* is this year? and, what do you think it will take to get in the top 8?


*MCC = minimum competitive concept, or the simplest design that could make eliminations at almost every regional.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

We had some 6 stacks topple at the AZ scrimmage yesterday...that was fun to watch. But painful to watch when the robot goes over with them.

I wasn't much surprised by what I saw. I'm glad we made an ungainly universal arm and claw that can cap a stack of 5 with a tote or container, and can also flip over a container if needed, or just put it on the stack sideways. I think that will be a standout feature at one of our regionals.

Getting totes from the landfills is not easy, we're going to need to get on the field early on Thursday and get some practice.

Not much going in in autonomous in most matches....which also didn't surprise me.

Hopefully the litter thing will get figured out by week 2. I really don't know what to do with litter.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Or programmers. We aren't there yet, but we hope to have a significant number of programmed "muscle memory" routines in time for Bayou on week 4. Our head coach's catch phrase for this season has been "Do the Thing!" Now that both the competition (Peabody) and practice (Atlas) 'bots are done, our programmers are working hard so that our robot can earn the nickname Zhu Li.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

We used the FMS lite just fine in MN. This guide to running a week zero in 2015 has helpful information on a few different options for setting it up.

I do agree that doing it without a schedule is the way to go- it is very difficult to create a schedule when teams want to spend the time improving mechanisms or testing out code in their pits. We just let them come and sign up for a slot in a match whenever they are ready.

2052 has an RC manipulator- the one time the drivers picked one up they turned too quickly and it fell off. That mechanism is currently being improved ;)

In my experience, Week Zero events are boring to watch in general. This time last year, people were saying the exact same thing about Aerial Assist. Many teams don't use week zero events to compete at their highest level- they are primarily there to iterate on their designs. I am going to reserve judgement for a few more weeks.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Good point. Its a problem when a "well played" match is more boring to watch than a "poorly played" one. From what I have seen so far, toppling stacks are the highlight of most matches. If history is any guide, teams will get better and the game will develop in positive ways as the season progresses.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Attending the Week 0 event held by 166 Chop Shop in Merrimack I've found that:

- Teamwork is key
- Throwing the noodles is going to be far more lucrative than initially thought, at least for the initial competitions. (and they're a pain to around)
- Loading/creating stacks from the human player zone is going to be difficult (unless specifically designed for it)
- 2:15 is not nearly as much time as we'd like to have....

Going to be an interesting year, not my favorite but if we see more reveals like 148's, Champs is going to be wildly entertaining...

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

The easiest points are the 40 cooperation points........Stacking smaller stacks will be an effective strategy.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

If you built a robot with mecanums, and no independent suspension, you'll be disappointed. Real wheels work better across the platforms.

Same for forklifts with arms out front. Auto-stackers are much quicker than driving and picking up. At least the arms are good for the containers.

I was really surprised by how well auto-stacking robots could just go to the human player window and drive away with a stack.


Very little noodle throwing at Lee's Summit.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

My observations found nearly exactly the opposite. I saw many teams with (apparently not real) mecanum wheels maneuvering around stacks and stray totes much better than the teams with "real" wheels trying to turn among them. This year will require a different set of driving skills. Drivers will need to be precise around stationary objects, where many past years involved predicting the motion of moving objects.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

And with practice, 6 stacks also.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

With noodle? I have seen six plus bin but can't envision noodle too at that height in that time. I saw a robot that can do six and bin in a minute but no noodle attempt was made. perhaps it could be done but they were at a minute without noodle.
4 noodle and bin is doable... saw it today done in stages.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Anyone have links to week 0 footage?

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Suffield Shakedown is archived on livestream: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/8...events/3809589

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

Good thing we are one of them.

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

HP for 1559, reporting what I found out as a HP.

• Noodles actually fly pretty easily. Distance wasn't the problem, accuracy was. It was easy for the noodle to go too far to the left/right and go OOB.
• Fresher noodles were extremely easy to throw. I got a few right outside the other alliance's HP Station. However, half shreded noodles are considerably more difficult to throw (though not impossible) and it will make a huge difference when the refs decide that a noodle should be replaced. If they replace them often - fantastic. If not - well, hope you didn't want many points.
• The more flannel on our drive team the better.
• It's possible to get a noodle thrown into a recycling container on the step, as a legend of a human player on a different team proved (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=134665.)
• Bad weather means half the teams don't attend. :(
• Knocking over a stack of six+RC+noodle is fun.
• Unless you have a designated "plow" (which we did not see a single one of,) it is very difficult to actually push noodles without just shredding them.
• Shredding noodles is fun.
• Sorry Rolling Thunder.
• We promise at least the first one wasn't intentional.
• Unless you're designed for it, receiving totes from the HP station is not as easy as it sounds.
• Limited view from the alliance station makes it extremely difficult to line up to the HP station w/o a camera.
• It's very difficult to see whether or not a noodle you threw has scored or not a lot of the time.
• Putting noodles into RCs is very easy, but most people already knew that.
• Noodles don't get flimsy, they get torn.
• Making a large stack can take a while.
• The entire field is a lot more cramped/cluttered than I thought it would be, particularly the staging zones.
• Throwing noodles over the drivers' heads is a lot more difficult but a lot more hardcore.
• One HP per an alliance is probably going to be close to useless, unless you have one throw noodles and the other two feed totes.
• The last 20 seconds of the match comes a lot faster than you'd think.
• LEDs are fun.
• Illegal LEDs are not fun.

Thanks Rolling Thunder for hosting the Rochester Rally!

Re: 2015 Week Zero Lessons Learned
 

beyondinspection has complied some of our thoughts on Week zero, take a look and let us know what you think. If others have images they would like to share let us know and we'll add that up on the site.

[EC] Suffield Shakedown Scrimmage