Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Team 1678 is excited to share what we've been working on this season.

http://youtu.be/ufl3kFreSFM

See everyone at CVR, SAC, SVR, and hopefully CMP!

#choochoo

-Mike

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Wow.
If this is really real, and 148 and 1678 end up in the same division, good luck winning.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Those were my thoughts exactly. That wouldn't even be fair. And unlike the unfair combination of 1114/469 in 2010, you can't even play defense against it.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Definitely digging the 4 bin, Mike. But knowing 1678, this is only the beginning of it. Now that the suns out, how much longer until you let the guns out? ;)

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I'm interested in seeing some battles for those bins in auto.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

My thoughts exactly.
It gives tuggawar a whole new meaning.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

"Slowest 4 RC grabbing auto in California"

Can't wait for CVR!

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Amazing!!
Have you guys timed how long it takes from the start to initially dragging the containers back?

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Can't tell if it's a joke, or you're serious.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Uh oh.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I seem to remember something either in a team update or in the Q&A about the landfill being a three dimensional speace which cannot be occupied by a robot during setup. That being said, if your design is legal the world will burn

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Nothing to see here....

Mike has said things like "This is the worst catapult in California!" (about their 2x regional, champs division winning robot) to motivate his students.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

From the sounds it makes and the way the RCs are moving, I'd guess that the design unfolds and clamps/hooks onto the handles of the RCs. Can't wait to see this thing!

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I spy a tape measure?

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Definitely looking forward to seeing more step contesting auto modes this season.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Seems like it may be the fastest and slowest 4-RC grabbing auto in CA... or in the world...

No doubt there are others currently out there, just unrevealed.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

#wurstchokeholdincali as mike would say haha

100% legal, manual updates have been followed religiously. Rules say nothing about 4 dimensional space Phasing into reality takes a little work though.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Now are you guys bending time and space or just simply space?

But it looks really good guys! Keep up the good work!

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I thought there was a rule against potentially ripping a hole in the universe.
:D
But I can't find it right now.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Your robot can get up to 88mph in just half the distance of the field?

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Watching cool, but not revealing videos like this makes me really excited for our "1v1 us at the step" opportunities this year with one of our auto programs.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Field? Where they are going they don't need fields.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Space/Time game confirmed

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

if you add 25 minicim you should be able to reach 88 MPH. So with the ulimited minicim rule it is possible.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

The only thing I see beating this is two robots grabbing two containers, and it becoming a tug of war; thereby the two robots winning due to the power of 2:1.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I hope someone with a can grabber puts a "u w0t m8" on the side facing the step.

Also the fact that 1678 is going for the full tilt auto for the third year in a row should only surprise people that thought the world was going to end on December 21st, 2012.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I think ripping a hole in the spacetime continuum is a bit hazardous.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

This is similar to an idea I had joked about on kickoff weekend, but never imagined actually pursuing.

Very cool.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Related? What is the tensile strength of a recycling container?

I'd really like to see this question settled before the end of the season.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

We've got the room. I've been trying to figure out how to top our sister (4451) team's Mutombo Finger sign that was on their 2013 robot. It'd going to be pretty difficult to take the two containers that we try to grab at once away from us.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

ok ;)

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Is it just me but do you even see a need for those four containers? Still have to stack them and 2:15 is not a lot of time. At most I saw 2 bins stacked today not 6 or 7....not a lot of time. Plus the bins will be on their sides most likely eliminating many robots from using them at that point.

Video is cool but how much it does it really change the game for the alliance with that capability..who knows guess we'll find out soon enough. Still way cool.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I don't if this says something about a new model Camaro Transmission. But the custom gearbox our mechanical head mentor built for the container grabber has more torque power than the car transmission.

;) Hope to test it out on a worthy opponent.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

best I can do is an opponent

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

If you can't use bins that are knocked over, it's time to reassess your design.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

be careful not to break the Recycling Container.... or crush it into smithereens if you really have the power of a car transmission in that mechanism.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Agreed... But even with the capability of picking up a bin on its side that takes time to put on a stack (balanced) and with three other bins I guess I just don't see the need for many more bins than 3 is all on any given side. This observation is based on time given in the time in the match and on the game flow I've seen so far. Be ideal if every robot could pick up objects in every position but that is not reality some are very specific with grabbing items. In championships sure it will be a factor at some level.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Think of elims. A robot that can grab four cans is invaluable for points denial, even if they all can't be used.
Quals is important, but being a pretty-much-guaranteed elims pick is better IMO. Assuming the robot can do more than just cans.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I'm sure 148 is planning on using more than 3 and I'm sure a lot more teams are as well.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

This will probably be true at most regionals and districts, but by the time St. Louis comes around, if not sooner, the containers on the step will be the key to the whole thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see the final match on Einstein decided within the first ten seconds.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Call me Carnack if you want, but I'll stay straight up those four bins WILL be key to winning Einstein. If you doubt it, just look at how fast 148 can create stacks of totes.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Exactly the reason why the students wanted to design our bot to handle the bins in any orientation and make it our #1 priority. If we get paired with a bot that can do something like this, we can focus on capping tote stacks while our partner makes those stacks....there's more teamwork to this game than people are giving it credit for...

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Teamwork will be the key. I just want to see how fast a 6 tote stack can actually be built and and scored. 148 looks like it could do it well.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I mean, if you have possession of all 4 step RC's, and you only manage to score one of the step RC's in addition to your alliance's 3 RC's, you've pretty much won. The bonus muiltiplier for an RC on a stack of 3 or 4 even is hard to counter when you don't have another recycling container to try it. Einstein will be decided in autonomous.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

To be honest, we're not just thinking about Regionals. We want to make a third straight visit to a special place this year....

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

You can always try to open up your own Waffle House franchise in Davis, California so you don't have to go all the way to Missouri for it.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I cant wait to see this in competition!!!

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Who's knocking my bins over?

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

This is incredible! Can't wait to see the full robot in action.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Gravity, your alliance partners, yourself, the A/C in the venue...

Great Measures
 

All I have to say is that our team went to great measures to make this work.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

The robots who can't use cans on their side are probably not the ones you're preparing to play with (at least not two of them) if you're about to use 4-7 cans in one match. Blue banners begin in autonomous, but they're born in shops like this.

and 148, 1678... (I know you said alliance partners, I just wanted to emphasize that it's necessarily by accident). Echoing Adam, "If you can't use bins that are knocked over, it's [EDIT: high past] time to reassess your design."

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I should also be added that if your robot is designed to handle the recycling cans., and you can't handle a knocked over bin, it's time to reasaess your design.

Re: Great Measures
 

Awsome!! ;D

I hope you have a version that goes for one or two containers, and I hope you have a strong drive train.

(Also, good luck ending with a 4 container autonomous and not a 4 lid one!)

Re: Great Measures
 

You know the lids are zip tied shut, right?

Re: Great Measures
 

I think this is a likely scenario, if one robot grabs high and another goes low. I would say that zip ties would break before robots let go, which leads to an interesting rules question: Can you score a can without the lid?

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Sound to me like something being shot at all 4 of the containers. Possibly pneumatic because you can hear the compressor in the background. Also, at the end there is some type of winch sound pulling the RCs in.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I've been trying unsuccessfully all season to convince my team of the importance of getting the containers....


If this is legit and reliable, you guys are going to go very far my friends.

Re: Great Measures
 

#punny

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I would if 148 included any actual footage of them creating a stack from start to finish in real time. ;)

Re: Great Measures
 

In your scenario above, I believe that one robot will be laying on the step.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Look at it this way...Since you have been unsuccessful in convincing your team on the importance of the snatching of the 4 Shelf RC's...If you are playing on an alliance with Team 1678...You won't have anything to worry about! (Except maybe stacking grey totes just as fast as you possibly CAN!)...And, if you are playing on an alliance against Team 1678....You definitely....Won't have anything to worry about. (Except stacking more totes just as fast as you can...without more than 3 CANS!) LOL.
_____________________
There are 16 total contested game pcs. in Recycle rush on that shelf. And 48/+6/(+those additional 16 contested)+10 Litter Ea., leaving 64 other useable game pcs. on EACH SIDE OF THE FIELD (situated both on the field & off).

Snatching those 4 are very important (or CAN be...yes the Pun again was intentional), IF DONE carefully, consistantly, and you can use them consistantly to multiply existing points concerning stacked scoring grey totes.

They are a means to an end...They are not an end to a means alone, and by & of themselves. They also multiply the work involved to properly score them, so they better be a part of an overall better plan. Using them properly is always going to be the key, though denying the opposing Alliance the opportunity to own them, & any chance to score with them, is of high game/scoring importance! They will still create a different "field littering scenario" at least until used to score.

It still remains to be seen how "auto tug of wars" between robots that cannot actually think for themselves during those important 15 seconds at least (beyond the initial human programming), will be won or lost or even fought, w/ what regularity & difficulty, and what resulting damage to game pcs. &/or robots may regularly result, & possibly affecting the rest of the time available in teleop.

How many of those "contested auto period Shelf RC wars" will actually continue on into the teleop time periods, and how much valuable time will be used in the end in the hope of winning the battles..."Who will let go first in heavily contested battles where both are locked on and just won't let go."

No Consistant or reliable "4 Shelf RC Snatcher" like the video seems to show at work (and I certainly believe that is one), could possibly be left (even if not in the top 8 qualifyers at any event), unpicked after the very first seed picks....You could not allow another team the opportunity or option of ending up with them...Period! They would/will be in high demand....But I believe they would be in the high top 8 "if consistant" anywhere, & at any event this FRC year.

All remains to be seen soon enough, and right up through the last match at the championships! (I predict at least 2 such~ 4 RC Snatchers will be present in the 2015 Championship final match!) Let the best bot win.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I suppose they "might" get picked assuming 1678 doesn't end up the number one seed in their division again.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

The nature of qualification rounds and this strategy might hold them back unless they have top-tier execution to get the cans they possess maximum value (I'm sure they know that). That being said, an effective 4 can grabber is the rising tide that can lift all boats, meaning it could probably decline from the 3 or 4 seed and still create the strongest alliance on the division.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Do keep in mind that a chokehold strategy has significantly reduced value until the finals. They need to score those RC to raise their average score to advance out of the QFs and SFs. The reduce opponent's maximum possible score will still have some value, but reducing one opponent's score holds less value than raising your score relative to all opponents.

I don't doubt that most Champs elimination alliances will have the ability to score multiple RCs, but it will still require careful alliance construction and good execution every match. For as mechanically impressive as 71 was in 2002 was, their chokehold was easier to execute at an alliance level then the chokehold is this year.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

um, this game is played with 3 robots per team, right? if each robot on your alliance can make 2 stacks topped with RCs, that's 6 RCs with a spare one left over (which won't be left over, trust me). those cans are the critical lynchpin to elimination powerhouse alliances, for sure.

plus, if they're on your side of the field, they're not being scored by the opposition on the other side...this is truly the only defensive strategy possible this year.


Oh, and of course, awesome job guys! apparently all the bins belong to the Circuits. all of them. there is no escape. looking forward to seeing the full bot in action.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Did you watch the week 0 streams?

Most teams, during the seeding rounds, will struggle to make 1 stack.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

In my time in FRC, week 0 has never been an accurate representation of your average match. MAYBE some of the lower ends of weeks 1 and 2 will resemble the best of week 0, but I would never judge the capabilities of teams based on some week 0 streams.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I tend to agree..those week 0 events were 5 minutes not 2:15 I don't see those 4 RC's having a huge effect offensively due to the time it takes to stack. only real offensive advantage I see is placement near scoring platform but that is somewhat negated by the cans likely being on their side and creating more clutter.

Two totes and bin = 12 lets say 6 of those ....that's 72 points can be trumped by two 6-stacks (bin+ noodle) or Cooperation and say a couple stacks some with singe or double bins.

its a strategy but also that's 6 scoring item in 135 seconds or 22.5 seconds per scoring stack... consistently I don't see these stacks being created in 22.5 seconds.

Would like to be proven wrong. Awesome to see this though and negating those RC's from other alliance is great...so from the defensive standpoint 4 RC auto is huge...in denying the possibility from the other alliance

Lots of robots will likely have long arms to grab single RC's off walls...4 at a time is much better

1678 is built for Einstein hope to see that team there.. those 4 RC's will be the definite difference...since cooperative is out the door. Most awesome to see all 4 handled..amazing.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Let's check the scoreboard on this one... 1678 is 2 for 2 in Einstein trips from the 1 spot the last two seasons. I trust their judgement.

Week 0 events aren't usually a valid baseline for the year. Top teams don't go to them, and the teams that do aren't generally ready.

I'm confidant many Einstein alliances can hit 6 stacks.... but they DON'T NEED to if they have the 4 center containers. Some simple math shows that if the other alliance only has 3 containers, you don't need to score all 7 you control to likely win (I'll leave this exact calculation as an exercise to the reader).

I'm certain 1678 understands they are less likely to seed 1st if they do this in auto every seeding match... but I'm also certain they have this all factored in.

Small minded thinking won't get you to Einstein, you need to think big.

It's frustrating to see so much negativity in response to such an awesome team, posting such an awesome feature, that has some awesome technical difficulty to accomplish.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Don't forget that 1678 put on a clinic during week 1 last year.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

100% on point. 1678s goal is Einstein and they clearly built a strategy and robot around that. Those who are putting it down don't understand the upper level strategies and nuances that comes with those type of goals and aspirations.

Definitely looking forward to seeing this robot in person. Seems to be 2826s perfect partner. Hope to play together at champs.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I think this is the key point here. 1678 is a high enough caliber team that they can design specifically to get to Einstein. I think the reason why individuals on this thread are so critical is because their teams have different goals, so they have trouble understanding why 1678 would pursue this design. Our team (like many others) did not design a robot to make it to Einstein this year, we designed our robot just to make it into the elimination rounds at our one event. If we go further, that's great, but that's not our goal.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Whenever I see one of these posts about amazing robots I get ticked and jealous. A bunch of these unique ideas are something we thought of in brainstorming. In this one's case, however, it's doing what we set out to do but with 4 instead of 2. I suppose my only hope if we go up against this is that their design is more passive than ours (ergo us winning a tug of war if it ever comes to it).

With all that being said, great job. I'm excited to see this thing in action.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

We were just like that this year too. We had some students over at our local week 0 scrimmage, and 1678's bot was so similar to one of our initial plans. There were also ideas to get the 4 containers in auto, but the team opted for maximum simplicity this year.

Great job guys, can't wait to get some matches in with you!

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

It seems that some people aren't realizing that while this may not be hugely important in the qualification rounds, grabbing the RCs from the step as fast as possible will win Einstein. Autonomous is designed with the finals in mind (which I'm sure they will see multiple times this season).

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

We expect as the season goes on teams will improve significantly. And at Champs there will be many more truly competent teams on the field.

The big difference is in the eliminations. In each of the last 2 years, we were able to get robots (862, 1640) that were on our first pick list--the depth of available robot "talent" is so much greater at Champs. There will be plenty of multi-stack robots at Champs in the elims. I expect all of the RCs will be stacked on Einstein.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

It's actually Pizzeria Pi! (They name their pizza's after California towns.) Tigin's Irish Pub is a close second (for the adult mentors in particular...)

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Actually, it's the same tiny 9th grader we had in last year's robot (find the reveal video...), but with his quadruplet siblings, all flying tethers jetpacks... :)

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Sacrifices were made...
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/41439?

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

OK. I'll bite.

1678 is not 'most teams'. The quote I was questioning is that each team will make 2 stacks. I said nothing about 1678.
Top teams don't go? I doubt you've been to suffield then. Week 0 is a good indicator of the 'average' team, not the top tier teams. But the quote I was bringing into question was that each robot will make 2 stacks.
'Most teams' are not Einstein alliances. Simple math shows that if teams have issues making a single stack, then grabbing all the RCs is useless.
In the eliminations things will obviously be different, but elimination teams are again not 'most teams'.
Again, 1678 isn't most teams. I wish they were the 'average' team (as this would raise the level of competition), but they are not.
Personal attacks are not needed here. Please argue your facts.
... and it takes a LOT more than thinking big to get to Einstein. A lot more.
My response was to a post about every team making 2 stacks. I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.

Every team will not make 2 stacks every match. Especially not during the seeding matches. I doubt you will see many 6 stack matches (2 stacks per team) even in the playoffs.

My prediction: 50 points will win 90% of the week 1 seeding matches.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

0 points will win 100% of seeding matches.

Thinking about this game within the confines of previous years will limit you.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Not commenting on the rest of your post, but remember that out scoring the other alliance on the field doesnt matter until the finals this year, and there is no winning of seeding matches.

Edit: Gregor beat me to it

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Well, realistically, if you win over the other teams more often than they win over you, you are probably making a lot of points.
Sure, winning doesn't matter if you make points... but that's like every year (scoring points, anyways). Plus, playing for eliminations is wiser than not, depending on your goals. Can denial will be important as long as you can stack decently well.
It's not like anyone is going to design a robot to play hard defense this year... at least I hope not.

EDIT: Team 3310 (Warhawks) have a pretty effective counter to this and any other 4-can grabbers: speed. Any robot that can flip something down fast and drive backwards could screw up 1678 before their tape measures reach the cans.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

But... THAT WAS MY TAPE MEASURE!!!!

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

973 probably knows a thing or two about what it takes to get to Einstein...

What the average team can do is nearly irrelevant in terms of this strategy. It is entirely designed around eliminations.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Agreed. As the number of teams/alliances in the competition decreases the value of the cans on the step increases exponentially, since you are effectively taking away possible points from the opponent. Having a method to take the cans from the middle is an exceptionally valuable asset and something that, even if the team isn't a captain, will almost assuredly get them picked.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

You are correct. I stand corrected. My point was (if very poorly worded) that in the seeding matches, average scores of 50 or so FOR THE ALLIANCE will get teams into the playoffs.

Taking away point of your opponent is only marginally effective until the finals.

During the seeding matches I believe that taking the RCs from the step will only waste time because unless your alliance can make more than 3 stacks as they score nothing unless part of a stack.

In addition, bringing the RCs on to your side of the field adds to an already cluttered / compressed field. During the playoffs this changes ... and that (if they make it) is where 1678 will shine.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

I wonder if tug-o-war in auto on RC's triggers a Violation on the robot that extends past wall (perhaps the other if there is contention). That might dissuade teams from doing that RC auto grab. Once a robot wins the initial tug (gaining ownership) the other robot would immediately be in violation for touching an object on other side. If it goes back the other way other robot in may be in violation also if not judged initially. Going to be very interesting to see what happens there.

Re: Team 1678's 4 RC Autonomous
 

Ironically enough, 1114 and 469 lost on Einstein in 2010.