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-   -   How many points will you score? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134864)

MrJohnston 18-02-2015 16:34

How many points will you score?
 
Now that the robots are bagged, we've seen some "week zero" competitions, etc, we should have a much better idea how well we're going to perform. As a follow-up to the previous polls, how many points will your robot be able to score individually in your first competition? Assume ideal conditions. If you need help making sets/stacks, divide the total by two... Do not include pool noodles unless you are sticking them in recycling containers...

Bryce2471 18-02-2015 17:04

Re: How many points will you score?
 
My apologies. When I tried to submit my vote, my phone freaked out, leading me to accidentally selected 150 pts. I meant to select just about 100 including coopertition.

Sorry for skewing the results.

Joseph1825 18-02-2015 17:24

Re: How many points will you score?
 
For anyone who want to reference them, here are the links to the first two of these polls.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=133917
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=133187

magnets 18-02-2015 17:34

Re: How many points will you score?
 
I'm still surprised by how high some of these numbers are (I'm looking at those who said they'd score over 150...)

Either these teams are amazingly fantastic, are being unrealistic, or are lying (or I'm overly pessimistic).

I think we'll realistically be scoring in the 40 to 50 point range at our first event, but I'm optimistic that we can pull off another mechanism that should give us the opportunity to score a little more.

Squillo 18-02-2015 18:14

Re: How many points will you score?
 
I assume this does not include coopertition, since no alliance/robot can do coopertition "by itself" (you need a yellow tote from the other side). Or should I have put in 1/2 of the coopertition points we will be able to help make?

AdamHeard 18-02-2015 18:25

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magnets (Post 1446605)
I'm still surprised by how high some of these numbers are (I'm looking at those who said they'd score over 150...)

Either these teams are amazingly fantastic, are being unrealistic, or are lying (or I'm overly pessimistic).

I think we'll realistically be scoring in the 40 to 50 point range at our first event, but I'm optimistic that we can pull off another mechanism that should give us the opportunity to score a little more.

20 point auto, 40 point co-op, 3 6 can stacks w/ container and noodle at 42 points each.

Not a stretch by any means.

Bryce2471 18-02-2015 18:31

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1446639)
20 point auto, 40 point co-op, 3 6 can stacks w/ container and noodle at 42 points each.

Not a stretch by any means.

I agree. Although, something makes me doubt that 7 people are actually this optimistic so early in the season. The 150+ button happens to be right next to the submit button, so I wouldn't be surprised if several of those did the same thing that I did.

Jared 18-02-2015 18:39

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1446639)
20 point auto, 40 point co-op, 3 6 can stacks w/ container and noodle at 42 points each.

Not a stretch by any means.

Perhaps it's not a stretch for some teams, but I would be very surprised if 10 percent of teams were able to have a 20 point autonomous, the ability to make 3 perfect stacks, AND co-op stacks in just 2:15?

To do that, a team must intake 20 totes, 3 containers, insert 3 noodles, and deposit 4 stacks.

Nathan Streeter 18-02-2015 18:41

Re: How many points will you score?
 
40 point co-op can't be completed (legally) by one robot... but if an opponent robot to assist with the co-op's included, then I think there will be at least one team at most districts/regionals that averages around 80-100pts per match. The elite teams will probably average 100-150pts per match.

AdamHeard 18-02-2015 18:44

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared (Post 1446646)
Perhaps it's not a stretch for some teams, but I would be very surprised if 10 percent of teams were able to have a 20 point autonomous, the ability to make 3 perfect stacks, AND co-op stacks in just 2:15?

To do that, a team must intake 20 totes, 3 containers, insert 3 noodles, and deposit 4 stacks.

I didn't say that 10% would be able to do it, just that it was doable.

PayneTrain 18-02-2015 18:50

Re: How many points will you score?
 
A team that can move 12-15 game pieces in a match during week 1 is going to be the best team at the event.

Jared 18-02-2015 19:57

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1446650)
I didn't say that 10% would be able to do it, just that it was doable.

I agree- we'll see an enormous gap between the "elite" teams and other teams this year. Some crazy teams may be able to do it, but it won't be very common.

Raw number of points scored isn't the best metric to determine the contribution to an alliance. A super accurate, fast, and repeatable capping robot or a robot which grabs containers from the step in autonomous might be critical to enable scoring (or prevent the opposing team from scoring).

Nathan Streeter 18-02-2015 20:03

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared (Post 1446694)
I agree- we'll see an enormous gap between the "elite" teams and other teams this year. Some crazy teams may be able to do it, but it won't be very common.

Raw number of points scored isn't the best metric to determine the contribution to an alliance. A super accurate, fast, and repeatable capping robot or a robot which grabs containers from the step in autonomous might be critical to enable scoring (or prevent the opposing team from scoring).

Agreed on both.

Which is why I think OPR and QA may actually be incredibly informative this year. At events with 12+ matches per team and for teams that have gotten their wrinkles largely smoothed out, they may be more informative than averaging the number of points the team scored directly.

Boltman 18-02-2015 20:20

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter (Post 1446697)
Agreed on both.

Which is why I think OPR and QA may actually be incredibly informative this year. At events with 12+ matches per team and for teams that have gotten their wrinkles largely smoothed out, they may be more informative than averaging the number of points the team scored directly.

Glad you are both valuing for fast cappers (with noodle)..one of the things we can do if needed very effectively with precision with human player aid. I was thinking that may be our best play along with Gold Totes. We can stack those too. So much to do so little time. 2:15 goes FAST.

waialua359 18-02-2015 20:25

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1446639)
20 point auto, 40 point co-op, 3 6 can stacks w/ container and noodle at 42 points each.

Not a stretch by any means.

Because it said individually, I didnt factor in the 40 point co-op when selecting our choice.
With that being said, I was surprised to see several teams choose 150+.

Boltman 18-02-2015 20:32

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1446715)
Because it said individually, I didnt factor in the 40 point co-op when selecting our choice.
With that being said, I was surprised to see several teams choose 150+.

Yes... 150+ is ridiculously hard solo in 2:15. I don't buy 10 worldwide can do it doubt even ONE can do it.
I don't care if you have a conveyor and three tethered together robots it still takes time...135 seconds with maybe a bit of room from the 32 max in auto. But I assume a solo 150+ point bot would need to be "in optimum stacking place" at end of auto for tele-op.

Best case max point stack at 42 points max stack .... is 3.67 completed solo stacks (a bit less adding in auto) for an average of completed max stack every 36 seconds with RC and noodle placed...does not leave time to get co-op solo 40 pts at all. Pretty sure an efficient stacker does not have a great mobility attribute. Before you say Batman..did you see it stack and how long those stacks took I saw a lot of driving around with 6 stacks.

I would have to see 150 points solo to believe it... Stacking takes time regardless of how you slice it other variables at play field conditions can change and robots can knock down stacks negating good intentions.

Maybe with noodle throwing but that shouldn't count....as solo.

Over 100 solo sure is possible with top bots...150 consistently not so much...guess we'll find out soon

WillRobinson 18-02-2015 20:38

Re: How many points will you score?
 
I read this question as "you're the only robot on the field. How many points can you score?" Getting 150+ by your lonesome is doable, but a pretty tough feat.

So if you get a 3-stack in auton, you have 135 seconds to get 130 points.

While there may be several combinations that can get you there, let's just assume a 6-stack with both a container and litter is the most efficient way. You'd need to build and score three of these with sub-40 second cycles to have enough time remaining to build and score a 2-stack to break 150.

Yes, doable but based on the week 0 play and the reveals seen thus far, it will be quite challenging.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some teams with 42-point cycle times in the 30 second range but not that many.

MrJohnston 18-02-2015 20:39

Re: How many points will you score?
 
We set the goal of being able to stack all three yellow totes on the day of kick-off and have kept that as a #1 priority ever since. We added being able to stack recycling containers... Being able to do these two things means:
* We have a very fast lifter.
* We have a very fast acquirer
In fact, if lined up perfectly, we can internally stack six totes in about five seconds... Recycling containers take about three seconds...

So, we should be able to get our 20 pt. autonomous in our first competition just about every match... It's easy enough, then, to pick up our three yellow totes and deposit them on the step right away. If there is one there already from the other alliance, it's easy enough to stack them. We can then be back in the staging area to acquire an RC 15 seconds into tele-op. Six or seven seconds later, we can be loading at the feeder station.... That leaves us more than 1:45 to stack... We can easily stack six totes and an RC in under 30 seconds, so 3 tall stacks shouldn't be hard... Of course, this was all under "ideal" circumstances.

Of course, all this is under ideal situations assuming a few things go well:
* Our autonomous code is about 80% debugged... Saturday our programmers are scheduled to have the practice robot most of the day and should be able clean it up.
* WE are having some struggles with how robust the clips on our lifter is- we've broken several and are trying to strengthen them without losing the necessary flexibility. Our last trial last night securely held four totes and an RC, was a bit too tipsy with a fifth tote and failed with tote number six... We did not have time to test our latest fix last night - but it's part of our 30lbs - so we'll be working on it the next two days as needed.
* Transporting a stack (six+RC) from the loading zone to the scoring platform is easy as is setting the stack on the platform.... Loading is easy as our robot guides totes out of the chute into the stack easily.

Why the narrative? Because we designed to grab and lift quickly from the beginning, scoring over 150 seems plausible. We are not an "elite" team by any means and we have some kinks to work out still, but I think we will be close. So, I can very well see how quite a few teams could be capable of putting up big numbers.... We can be foiled by a few things... We are still working on solutions to deal with sideways totes and currently knock about 30% of them over in autonomous... We can take RC's from the step, but not during autonomous - at this point...

By our week five competition, we hope to have a few "additional" capabilities: We think we can add a device that will let us convert our 20 pt. autonomous to a 28 pointer... It will be easy so long as we use less than 2lbs of material... We'd like to add something that can upright totes - or let us slide the sideways RC's into our lifter... Again, in needs to be light. WE trimmed about five lbs. out of our robot last night to get us down to 117....

Jonathan Norris 18-02-2015 20:45

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Every year we over estimate how many game pieces team can score, the averages are usually very low. The top teams will do over 10 scoring actions per game (stack 1 tote, score bin), the average will likely be ~4-5.

The big difference this year is obviously the lack of defense, hopefully that should allow teams to focus on optimizing their scoring and we should see averages rise throughout the season.

dschmalzel 19-02-2015 20:05

Re: How many points will you score?
 
We talked about this on kickoff day.

Einstein at World's they are going to run out of totes to stack. They are going to clear the field and bring in all 30 from outside.

GeeTwo 22-02-2015 01:53

Re: How many points will you score?
 
If we went today, about 36 (one stack of six with RC). We have nearly three more weeks to work on the semi-autonomous pickup code, which should better than triple our effective speed to stack, so (allowing for running out of RCs) I went with 91-100. If we can get our auto tote stack working (about 50% likelihood), add another 20. If our code works as well as I believe it should, the numbers could be even better. As programming mentor this year, I see a lot of long nights between now and Bayou.

IronicDeadBird 23-02-2015 11:26

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Woah 150+?
Ima call it at 42-60, but wow 150...
I hope this is accurate cause the mechanisms provided would be mind blowing.

Whippet 23-02-2015 11:33

Re: How many points will you score?
 
To answer the original question: Probably not enough. :rolleyes:

Kevin Leonard 23-02-2015 12:18

Re: How many points will you score?
 
How much is 150 points?
Its more than a tote stack auto and 3 fully capped stacks of 6
Its a tote stack auto and 4 fully capped stacks of 5
Its a tote stack auto and 4 capped stacks of 6.
Its more than a tote stack auto and 4 capped stacks of 5
Its more than a container, robot, tote set and 3 fully capped stacks of 6
Its a container, robot, tote set and 4 fully capped stacks of 5
Its a container, robot, tote set and 4 capped stacks of 6
Its more than a container, robot, tote set and 4 capped stacks of 5
Its 4 fully capped stacks of 6
Its more than 4 fully capped stacks of 5
Its more than 4 capped stacks of 6
Its 5 capped stacks of 5
Its 75 scored totes.

If you can score more than any of the above every single match, you can put down 150+
You're also either one of the best in the world right now or delusional.

For the purpose of analysis, I'm disregarding unprocessed litter and coopertition points because they are less effective during playoffs when it matters.

Caleb Sykes 23-02-2015 12:45

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard (Post 1448707)
If you can score more than any of the above every single match, you can put down 150+
You're also either one of the best in the world right now or delusional.

Exactly right.

IronicDeadBird 23-02-2015 13:20

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Anybody have the math handy on the max score you can get as determined by maximum number of 6 stacks on the platform plus all scoring options? I thought it was 170 something but that seems wrong in retrospect.

Boltman 23-02-2015 13:30

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird (Post 1448735)
Anybody have the math handy on the max score you can get as determined by maximum number of 6 stacks on the platform plus all scoring options? I thought it was 170 something but that seems wrong in retrospect.

THEORETICAL MAXIMUM COMPETITIVE SCORE
Autonomous
Robot Set: 4
Tote Set: 6
Container Set: 8
Stacked Tote Set: 20

Total: 32 Points

Teleoperated
60 Gray Totes: 120
7 Recycling Bins Level 6: 168
7 Litter in Bins: 42
13 Unprocessed Litter: 52
Cooperation Stack: 40

Total: 422

Combined Total: 454

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

THEORETICAL LET'S BE NICE EVERYBODY SHARES SCORE
Autonomous
Robot Set: 4
Tote Set: 6
Container Set: 8
Stacked Tote Set: 20

Total: 32 Points

Teleoperated
54 Gray Totes: 108
5 Recycling Bins Level 6: 120
5 Litter in Bins: 30
5 Unprocessed Litter: 20
Cooperation Stack: 40

Total: 318

Combined Total: 350

IronicDeadBird 23-02-2015 13:33

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boltman (Post 1448739)
THEORETICAL MAXIMUM COMPETITIVE SCORE
Autonomous
Robot Set: 4
Tote Set: 6
Container Set: 8
Stacked Tote Set: 20

Total: 32 Points

Teleoperated
60 Gray Totes: 120
7 Recycling Bins Level 6: 168
7 Litter in Bins: 42
13 Unprocessed Litter: 52
Cooperation Stack: 40

Total: 422

Combined Total: 454

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

THEORETICAL LET'S BE NICE EVERYBODY SHARES SCORE
Autonomous
Robot Set: 4
Tote Set: 6
Container Set: 8
Stacked Tote Set: 20

Total: 32 Points

Teleoperated
54 Gray Totes: 108
5 Recycling Bins Level 6: 120
5 Litter in Bins: 30
5 Unprocessed Litter: 20
Cooperation Stack: 40

Total: 318

Combined Total: 350

Sweet thanks man. Ill run the numbers on maximum number of totes on a scoring platform

Kevin Leonard 23-02-2015 13:35

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird (Post 1448735)
Anybody have the math handy on the max score you can get as determined by maximum number of 6 stacks on the platform plus all scoring options? I thought it was 170 something but that seems wrong in retrospect.

Maximum autonomous is 32 points:
Tote stack (20)
Container set (8)
Robot set (4)
Maximum Teleoperated is 362
All 7 containers scored at maximum height with noodles: (7*30= 210)
All 70 totes scored (140)
The three extra noodles scored as unprocessed litter(12)

Maximum score= 32+362=384

With only 3 containers, maximum score is less three full containers, but plus 4 unprocessed litter. (384-120+16=280)
Correct me if my math is wrong.

IronicDeadBird 23-02-2015 13:38

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard (Post 1448742)
Maximum autonomous is 32 points:
Tote stack (20)
Container set (8)
Robot set (4)
Maximum Teleoperated is 362
All 7 containers scored at maximum height with noodles: (7*30= 210)
All 70 totes scored (140)
The three extra noodles scored as unprocessed litter(12)

Maximum score= 32+362=384

With only 3 containers, maximum score is less three full containers, but plus 4 unprocessed litter. (384-120+16=280)
Correct me if my math is wrong.

Its correct but I don't think you can hold all 70 totes on the scoring platforms
I think my math is wrong now but then again this is why I deal with logistics not statistics...

Kevin Leonard 23-02-2015 13:46

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird (Post 1448743)
Its correct but I don't think you can hold all 70 totes on the scoring platforms

12 stacks of 6.
6 stacks on each platform. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's very possible.

Siri 23-02-2015 17:01

Re: How many points will you score?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard (Post 1448707)
How much is 150 points?
...
If you can score more than any of the above every single match, you can put down 150+
You're also either one of the best in the world right now or delusional.

For the purpose of analysis, I'm disregarding unprocessed litter and coopertition points because they are less effective during playoffs when it matters.

Exactly true. There's a perennial tendency in FRC to overestimate score contributions.

On this point, I have a related question: what was the average [total alliance] score for last year's Week 1 #1 seeds? Or how about the average alliance score at Worlds?* Just by memory/guessing. (I did the math; you don't have to.) As a refresher: Truss, Catch, High Goal = 10 each. Low Goal = 1. Auto = +5 for Goals; +5 for Hot; 5 for Mobility. 2 Assists = +10, 3 Assists = +30. Fouls added to scores are were 20 and 50.

Do you remember what you thought you'd get in 2014? Do you remember what you did get? Do you remember what seed you were? (You can do this for yourself as well; I did it by hand off TBA.) Take a minute, check the answer, and see if it changes your guess about your points for this year. Does it?


Attachment: Answer to (ASSIST+AUTO+TRUSS&CATCH+TELEOP GOAL&FOUL)/matches for the twelve Week 1 #1 seeds and the average in each World division.

*Karthik talking about overestimating this (in 2012).

waialua359 23-02-2015 18:37

Re: How many points will you score?
 
With some powerhouse teams competing this weekend in Dallas, we will see just how accurate the predictions are.
And because of the way the game is this year, I dont see it changing much for those elite teams. They will operate at a high level or pretty close to it already.

PayneTrain 23-02-2015 18:51

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siri (Post 1448851)
Exactly true. There's a perennial tendency in FRC to overestimate score contributions.

On this point, I have a related question: what was the average [total alliance] score for last year's Week 1 #1 seeds? Or how about the average alliance score at Worlds?* Just by memory/guessing. (I did the math; you don't have to.) As a refresher: Truss, Catch, High Goal = 10 each. Low Goal = 1. Auto = +5 for Goals; +5 for Hot; 5 for Mobility. 2 Assists = +10, 3 Assists = +30. Fouls added to scores are were 20 and 50.

Do you remember what you thought you'd get in 2014? Do you remember what you did get? Do you remember what seed you were? (You can do this for yourself as well; I did it by hand off TBA.) Take a minute, check the answer, and see if it changes your guess about your points for this year. Does it?


Attachment: Answer to (ASSIST+AUTO+TRUSS&CATCH+TELEOP GOAL&FOUL)/matches for the twelve Week 1 #1 seeds and the average in each World division.

*Karthik talking about overestimating this (in 2012).

What I will say in comparing this game to last year's, how you scored points mattered more in qualification rounds than this year. Assist points were a lot harder to get than T+C and Goal points because they were worth more in the metagame, and Foul points were lower in Week 8 than Week 1.

I think the range from the Week 1 average to the Week 8 average will be higher than last year because not only will teams learn how to use their robots, but learn how their robot scores points most efficiently. 1st order sort will be exclusively used for seeding a lot more than not this year. Types of points this year don't have magnified differences in the metagame like they did in 2014 and to a lesser extent, 2012 and 2013.

MrJohnston 24-02-2015 16:22

Re: How many points will you score?
 
I know that our points will likely change a lot from our first to last competition as we have a drive team with not students who have driven before.... Now that our practice robot is (mostly) working, we hope to see some good practice.... We will also be adding more "interesting" code between now and the end of the seasons... and possibly another function or four.

MrJohnston 24-02-2015 16:23

Re: How many points will you score?
 
Stay tuned for next week's follow up poll question: "How many points did you actually score (on average) in your week 1 event?" :D


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