Ohio going to Districts?
 

I had thought that during the Columbus kickoff event that one of the speakers had mentioned something about Ohio going towards a district system. Does anyone know what that might look like, or when they anticipate this sort of transition, and what it would mean to teams here?

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

From what I heard almost all of FIRST will be going District by 2017 (there will be obvious exceptions like the Iowa/Nebraska/ Wyoming/North Dakota/ South Dakota areas where there area not enough teams and too much distance to make districts feasible).

I am completely unfamiliar with that format. How many events would a team need to register for? What do the costs look like?

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Going to districts means you get more competitions and matches for the same amount of money. You get two district events or the same price as one regional. It is also a better way of qualifying for champs with the point system. Biggest downside (at least here in New England) is that the venues are smaller and amount of teams at a competition until the District Championship.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

'Districts' essentially makes the lowest tier of competition broader ('District Events' replace 'Regionals), and adds a tier in the middle ('District Championsips').

Each team gets to go to 2 District events (capped at 40 teams) for the same $5000/$6000 registration fee that got them 1 Regional before. If you want to go to more District Events, they're $1000 each. The Distict CMP is $5000 (or 4k or something).

In terms of cost to compete per event, it's far cheaper... For teams that have only gone to 1 event before, and aren't in an FRC-dense area, it can introduce extra travel costs though.

What I think is best about it, is it makes the way teams advance far more intuitive... you get points for your wins (or rank this year) in qualification matches, for winning awards, for getting picked in alliance selection, for where you end up in eliminations, and for being a rookie or 2nd-year team (to help 'equalize' the playing field and to help young teams see DCMP and CMP). This may sound confusing, but it ends up advancing the best teams in the region exceptionally well. Far better than the 'crap-shoot' of winning a regional or Chairmans (i.e., being 1, 2, or 24th best robot or being single best in a 10-minute interview, an essay, or a video).

Incredibly few people say 'Gee, I wish we went back to the regional system' once they've experienced the district system.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

*Speculation based on existing district structures*

The registration fee is the same but instead of one regional you get two districts.

If space is available you can register for a third district for $500-$1000. Or you can register for a regional for the same $4000.

If you qualify for the district championship that costs $4000.

Districts are usually weeks 1-6 and district championships are usually week 7.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

You should tell that to Indiana and Pacific Northwest, both of which are holding their district championships in week 6.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Pulled two facts, one to emphasize one to correct.

District Events don't always cost $1000 more. I know in Michigan they were $500.


The second part is true. For certain teams it may increase travel costs. However, when I mapped out where events compared to the previous year's teams (which is what they logically should be based on) most places did pretty good.

PNW - http://beyondinspection.org/post/997...ific-northwest

FIM - http://beyondinspection.org/post/972...rict-stats-fim

Indiana - http://beyondinspection.org/post/997...-indiana-first

NE - http://beyondinspection.org/post/997...ts-new-england

MAR - http://beyondinspection.org/post/997...tlantic-region


PNW does the worst with forcing one team to drive 242 miles to its second closest event. And that team likely had to go that far for any events prior.

Teams at the weird outer edges of Districts (857 in FiM) get hurt the worst because it's shorter to travel to Wisconsin than to a second district.

Having done Districts -> Regionals -> Districts over the last couple years, as a team I prefer districts. As a spectator I prefer regionals.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Hopefully they would include West Virginia and even western PA. With everyone around us speculating about going to districts, if nobody includes us that isolates us from any close events.

Out of curiosity, where would those teams compete if everyone around them is in a district format? Wouldn't not including them make it even more difficult for those teams than it already is? These teams should be included in a nearby district instead of being forced into Canada or a regional 10 hours away. It only further alienates them than they already are.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I don't really have any idea about what they would do, but just as speculation it wouldn't surprise me if they gave a state or pair of states a regional (The Dakota Regional?). Either that, or they might allow the teams in that state to join part of a nearby district series that suites them.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Wouldn't surprise me either, albeit it would make me angry. I would hope they would be allowed to compete at a nearby district. But as I said above, using the example of here in WV, it is already hard enough on us to start teams that have enough money to travel to regionals (when other teams have much cheaper events that are much closer). If they leave WV out, there is nowhere else for us to go. This is something that I'm deeply concerned about because with only 4 teams, we can't support our own district. I don't want to be stuck only being able to travel to the Dakotas or Canada because everyone around us is in districts and we aren't allowed to compete there.

It's like a catch-22. You need a bunch of teams to start a district, but when you make it harder and harder every year for those teams to travel, and make t cheaper and easier for everybody else in FIRST, you won't see team growth in those places. We will have to tell new teams in WV "oh you have to pay 5,000 to go to one event 10 hours away, but everybody else gets two closer events for the same price."

(I hope it doesn't sound like I'm lashing out on any one particular person. This is just a subject that makes me angry sometimes and honestly quite scared).

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

OhioFIRST and other organizations of interest are currently discussing the topic of district events internally.

No hard deadline for district conversion has been set, but we know they're coming and are planning accordingly.

I cannot share specifically what the boundaries of the proposed district would be, since none have been decided, but I can say that OhioFIRST is working together with leadership in other adjacent states along with FIRST-connected individuals in formulating a proposal.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

What Travis said.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I have heard that VA may go to districts in 2016, so it wouldn't surprise me that if we did go to districts, there would be one in the Southwest of VA and there would be one in Northern VA. Not perfect for WV, I know, but if they allowed them in it would be at least better than Canada or the Northwest States. Ohio (if they do go district) and MAR are also options, though MAR would definitely be a stretch.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I mean, it's definitely do-able (I usually think of worst-case scenarios). It's just a matter of whether nearby districts would allow us. I believe we are technically under Pittsburgh region, so if Ohio includes them, I would assume we are included as well. MAR would be do-able for us, but for the other three teams, it's really far. 3492 was actually just as close to Crossroads than to Pittsburgh.

My "dream" district would be an Ohio/West Virginia/Western PA/ and possibly Western Maryland.

I will hate not being able to go back to SMR though. My favorite trip every year :/

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Pittsburgh would be quite a good deal for you guys. The other groups it would be much more difficult, but maybe they get included in the VA/TN districts?

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Indiana FIRST was trying to include Illinois and Ohio when starting the District planning process a few years ago. I would expect that option to still be on the table. And I personally would be extremely happy to be able to call an Illinois/Indiana/Ohio (and maybe Kentucky) collection the "Cardinal" region.

Nobody's going to stop you from attending as a volunteer, right?

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I will be quite upset if Iowa gets left out of all of the future regional systems in our neighboring states. Why is distance a different issue with districts? We have to travel to events anyway, so we can travel to out of state district events instead of out of state regional events.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

In the Pacific Northwest we have 10 districts 2 each on weeks 1 thru 5 then the Championships on week 6. This works out very well for most teams.
I like this model, last year we played 62 matches in 2 districts, PNW Championship and worlds.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I wouldn't mind being absorbed into Indiana. At least if we went to the Kokomo District, I wouldn't have to pay for a hotel :]

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I'd agree. Teams from Iowa are as much a part of MN events as MN teams are-- I can't image North Star without you guys, and not having 525 in the state last year was just weird.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

This is how the scoring goes.
2 Districts > 1 Regional Championship > Worlds
2014- 153 teams in districts 64 Regional Championship 24 to Worlds ( this has moved up to 32)

To see how the scoring goes :

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default... 0Summary.pdf

I like the system, lots of playing and very good teams move on.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Is that 242 miles determined as the crow flies? Because 857's second closest district event is 370 miles away (to Traverse City). The second closest event (Duluth) is 220 miles away.

And for us, it's over an hour less driving to go to Duluth than Milwaukee.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

My hope is teams in sparsely populated states (teams/events wise) or teams teams in states who in the regional model typically competed out of state for their home events, will have the ability to choose and declare which region they will belong to based on what is best for them. This is of course if future developments on inter district play doesn't solve the issue to begin with (which I hope they do).

Basically though, this would implement the idea NE FIRST had proposed in the planning phases of the conversion in regards to the NY Tech Valley. You can read more about it here:

http://www.nefirst.org/2012/10/24/inter-district-2/

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Yeah it's as the crow flies, turns out computing driving directions for all district teams for all district events is hard (I'm up for it if someone has an idea how to do it/just wants to chat about it). It also limited for events in your district. There were a handful of teams (you guys, and a handful of Maine teams) that the closest event was not in their district.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

The general issue with distance/sparse population and districts is not the distance itself but the number of times you have to travel (to have a chance at qualifying for worlds). As opposed to traveling to and perhaps winning one regional, you now have to go to two Districts and a District Championship to potentially make it to worlds. Additionally, while more travel means more play (for less money), there have been claims that because District Events are less 'flashy', their recruiting power is lower. The corollary there is that the travel/money schedule of 2 Districts + District Championship (which has at least the flashiness of a regional, but in my experience is even better due to the quality of teams) makes it hard to recruit and retain students.

This is what typically comes up in "Districts?" threads anyway. I am not in a sparsely populated area, so I am no claim that this is actually the case. We generally feel like districts are a better 'shot' at qualifying for Worlds, not in terms of percentages or input energy, but because better/longer measures of consistency mean less luck and more team control. We've also found that districts are great for recruitment and retention, simply because you far play more and with the same group of teams. (My students are much, much more likely to have more friends on more teams than they were pre-districts.) There's also an interim goal/awesome experience to aim for besides the difficulty of qualifying for worlds. That said, many MAR teams also benefit in recruiting by having more 'home' (close) events. This is not a benefit less densely populated areas would see, though I don't know what affect, if any, that would have.

To be clear, I'm just trying to answer this particular question, not suggest that anyone should cut Iowa out of districts. Personally I'd like to see a huge free-for-all where you just register for 2 Districts anywhere in the world, and choose your preferred District Championship.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

This is my feeling about it. It's no doubt that FIRST will be entirely districts in the near future and for the teams in rural locations, they should have the choice of which system fits them best.

The teams in Iowa may find it best to align with Minnesota for a district system for example.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Go west, young man.

(Most of) Ohio FRC has a more natural connection with parts east, traditionally. I firmly believe that is the direction in which we are headed.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Case in point: Rochester and buffalo area teams have treated Cleveland and Pittsburgh as second regionals for as long as I remember, even with the addition of tech valley. The only other close option for us is Toronto, and most teams don't go there because of the difficulty of transporting a robot and team of people across an international border.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Here in Cincy - we are closer to most of the Indiana events than NE Ohio or Western PA, but will be extremely happy to compete as much as possible in any district or regional events - east or west, north or south! We really enjoy spending time with all of our FIRST friends in all parts of the world!

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Therein lies the challenge with designing districts: Cincinnati is closer to Indiana than Cleveland, just like Cleveland is closer to Pittsburgh than Cincinnati, just like buffalo is (a lot) closer to Cleveland than NYC, just like NYC is much closer to all MAR than most other cities in New York. State lines often do not line up well with team distribution, and there are always teams that will get the short end of the stick. Ideally, once everyone moves to districts, teams will be free to choose the geographically closest events.

We are in South East Ohio. I think we are the only team in this part of the state actually.currently we compete in Cleveland. It's quite the haul for us, about four hours in school transportation. I'm not sure we could afford twice that expense for a second regional of equal or greater distance. it would help greatly if the district was in Columbus or Athens.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

There are also "nudges" from HQ on how they want the district boundaries to look. I'm not sure the reasoning.

Yes, once interdistrict play starts, the boundaries won't mean much anymore except for the Championship events.

Once we go to districts we will be adding events in other cities.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Rather than focus your preferences on traditional travel options, I think the more sustainable direction is to add closer events. For example, instead of thinking "Pittsburg is nearer to us than either Cleveland or Columbus, never mind Cincinnati," think "Dover would be a great place for a district competition."

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Those conversations are happening. Based on maps of team locations where the ideal locations would be for new events and where the growth opportunities for growing teams are.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

This was a hot topic in another thread. How does this work in a state the size of mine...:eek:



Our closest district event would probably be at least 120 miles away...in a city that already hosts almost 40 teams...

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

It can't be any more of a problem than the current state of things, can it? I doubt anyone is suggesting eliminating competition locations.

I don't have a convenient map of team locations, but I am going to guess that there are probably enough teams north of Houston and east of Dallas to make Nacogdoches a reasonable place to hold a competition.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

The Mahoning Valley Robotics Challenge in the Youngstown-Warren, OH area (NEOFRA land) was developed with the intent of the region becoming a district host one day. Such things are under way.

That being said, just like has happened in every other district, we do need to include established regional venues within our web of eventual district/district championship events.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Established venues aren't necessarily as important as it might seem. None of the proposed arenas for the Indiana district competitons had been used for FRC regionals.

Actually, Kokomo did start out hosting IRI at Memorial Gym, so one finds a little bit of ancient FRC history there. And it turns out that the originally chosen Indianapolis venue got pre-empted and the current IRI host facility is taking its place, so that's some more FRC continuity. But the Purdue event replacing the Boilermaker Regional isn't in the Armory, and the Crossroads Regional basically vanished.

As for choosing district boundaries, there are going to be teams at the edge however it's done. The Queen City and Midwest Regionals are closer for some teams than any of the Indiana events. They cope.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

It's not exactly team locations (I can give you a map of Texas w/ 2014 teams and 2015 events plotted later if you want) but I did map all travel for 2014 that might be semi relevant: http://schreiaj.github.io/frc-travel-map/

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I'm not a big fan of forcing state boundaries as district borders. (MAR and NE don't, FiM does) I like the concept of "here is a district, if there is one nearer to you, opt into that one". That helps with the travel, etc. for teams that have closer districts (Dave's and smistthegreat's points)

It would make places like CA and TX a little easier to manage. CA could be NorCal and SouthCal, you could divide TX into thirds. I also see districts splitting as FRC continues to grow.

I like the idea that you can do an outside the district event ("Hey Mom, we are going to Utah for robots!" ), but I think you would go to "your" district.

I really hate the concept of a group of roboteers working 1,600 hours during build season and then only getting 7 matches out of it at their lone regional. I love districts since it gives you two chances to play for the same money.

Siri has a point about making friends in districts. Some of alliance selection is scouting, but sometimes a "we know them, we've seen them play before at another district" comes into play.

I was really exited when Alan said "Dover would be a great place" until I figured out he wasn't talking about Dover Delaware :(

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

With the expansion of the district model to new areas, you create the issue of "non-district" or regional teams becoming more and more isolated and limited in the events that those teams can compete at. For example, 1507 commonly competes in Ohio for our travel regional. If Ohio (and possibly western PA) goes to districts next season, that cuts our list of reasonable locations in half.

Hopefully, this new "mini-district" concept that Indiana is piloting this year is part of the solution to this issue. Hopefully some of these lesser populated areas that are being sectioned off by larger districts can move to the district model as well.

It seems like a lot of regions are about to make the transition to districts in the next year or two. I'm not sure what the plans are for the New York/Finger Lakes region as far as a conversion to districts (I herd it is rumored for 2016). Until we convert, we are going to continually be more and more limited in the number of events we can compete in

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

My thoughts exactly. Plus, it sets up a catch-22. It's increasingly more difficult/expensive for "regional" teams to travel, thus making it harder to sustain and start up new teams, but it is like this because there are not enough teams in the area. It's essentially punishing non-district areas for not having enough teams, but making things more difficult for those teams.

Districts are already at a huge cost advantage over everyone else, this just ads fuel to the fire.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Only one of the 18 FiM District events was previously a Regional location (W Mich.). Great Lakes was the MSC location until this year. Wayne State couldn't guarantee the arena one year because their basketball team might have made playoffs, so we moved out of there too.

On the subject of moving to smaller cities in more remote locations, we now have 3 - Traverse City (from year 1), Escanaba (last year) and Standish (new this year). It resembles "build it and they will come". More importantly, the event becomes a community and media event in the smaller locations. I was at the first TC event, and it was well covered by the local news media. People came from quite a distance away to see what it was about.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Instead of "regional venue" I should have said "regional location". You don't run away from the volunteers, sponsors, and especially the teams who are concentrated in those larger urban centers. You can have the events at whatever venue you can afford within the metro area of interest.

And if you want to establish other district competitions in more podunk locations, more power to ye.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

This to me is the simplest solution for assigning districts. If we're not going to allow teams to pick what District they are part of then it should be determined by the closest event, and while we still have the regional/district divide then the closest event determines if you are in a district at all. FiM already exists which may require some grandfathering, but I don't want to see teams cut off from close events due to artificial district boundaries like state lines.

The first two years I was with 167 our closest event would have been the Midwest regional at 220 miles away. Last year with the addition of Central Illinois that is now the closest event at 150 miles. If that event goes to districts I would want to see the team included in that district. If the district was based on artificial state lines, say the Illinois/Wisconsin district to take advantage of the population density in the Chicago & Milwaukee area, then we would lose our 3 closest events. Putting Iowa into a district with Minnesota isn't much of a consolation as currently the closest event is 300 miles for more southern teams.

A geography based mapping could lead to some oddities like a team changing districts as new events are added, but I'll take that over being outright barred from nearby events. It also poses an interesting question; when there are no more regionals and Missouri, Illinois, and Minnesota have all gone to separate districts, how do you determine which one a new event in Des Moines joins?

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Creating small groups of people dedicated to ensuring that your area has enough volunteers, sponsors, and a plan for future growth BEFORE jumping to the district model will help with this.

Hopefully your dedicated volunteers will follow the event, and if the district has enough money (because they have an organized sponsorship base) they can potentially pay for their key volunteers to travel if needed. InF is not doing that this year, but we're a small district, and travel is limited.

I'd love to see Ohio go to districts next year. We might be able to have some Ohio/InF crossover play!

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Is this in miles? I believe your data is wrong...at least for our team it is. Unless it only is counting 2 events but says 3??
-Ronnie

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I think Ohio is probably close to being ready if you include Western PA and WV. The Ohio State Championship is in its third year this year and as I understand it will be at the same venue. The CORI invitational will be in its 6th year this June. The second Mahoning Valley Robotics challenge will be held this fall (Travis I think this year we will be able to make it. My coaching cross-country made it hard but we are putting the plans in place well ahead of time now.) MAR hosted their 24 hour event with WVU this summer. So that is four competitions to go along with the three regional events already in the area.

We have been fortunate enough to qualify for the World Championships in half of our seasons to date. But it is getting harder. I like the idea of having something more realistic (and less reliant on the luck of the draw at a single event) to shoot for as a team in terms of qualifying on. Even if it makes getting to the World Championships less likely, I think the chance to qualify for a District Championship could be a big motivator.

So likely Ohio/etc venues seem to be :
Cleveland
Cinnci
Machining Valley
Columbus x2
Pittsburgh
?

Would there likely be one in WV?

We would hate to speculate as there are a lot of factors to consider for the switch to districts. The big hurdle we have is getting enough key volunteers trained in the area of interest as well as getting the funding to support all of the events. When we have firm plans we will be sharing them with the teams in Ohio via email and expect leadership in the other areas to convey the details to their teams. I'm not sure about Buckeye but QCR will be having an OhioFIRST meeting for mentors.

As far as your list goes there is only one event in Columbus, the State Championship is in Dayton this year, same location as last year.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

One in WV would be nice. And it is doable. We held our 24-hour off-season last year, among many many other reasons so that we could prepare for the eventuality if hosting a district competition. And there are several venues here in Morgantown and elsewhere that would do it, including where we held our off-season.

This is honestly the biggest reason I want WV to be included eventually. We can't support a regional, but in order to get FRC going stronger, an event will help pull people in and get them interested. And it seems to me like an event in north-central WV will make sense to the Pittsburgh teams.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

My guess is that they will join a nearby district, or even form their own. FRC is a hard enough sell in really rural areas, and telling them that they have to pay twice as much to travel twice as far as every other team in FIRST would just kill it. Having some areas in districts and some not is just not a sustainable model. Even if that means they have to travel for six hours or more to get to a district event, I'm sure they'd rather do it than spend thousands of more dollars for much much less playing time.

Having these areas in neighboring districts will actually make it easier to start more teams anyway, ensuring that they can have their own district in the future.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

I don't understand. Who would be asked to pay twice as much, and why?

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Not in registration, nope. In travel. If teams have to travel extra distance to get to an event they can attend, just because all the nearby events are districts, they've got to either pay the money (read: raise extra money, possibly twice as much depending on distance) or join a district where you'll at least get double the mileage out of that money.

E.g.: A team in SD currently attends Colorado Regional. Colorado, Utah, Montana, and Idaho decide to combine forces for one district system. Simultaneously, MN goes district. Now, the nearest regional is Kansas City... unless, as floated a couple years ago, that area goes district, when it's Vegas, one of the Arizona events, or somewhere farther afield. Basically, when every regional is a 2-day drive, the cost of attendance just doubled (hotel, gas...).

So, the nice thing to do would be for the CO/UT/MN/ID district system to invite the SD teams (at least in certain areas) to join in, so that those 2x attendance costs at least go to 2x events.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Districts are cheaper than regionals. Correct me if I'm wrong, but district event registration gets you 2 events and it is still cheaper/se cost as just one regional. If areas are left out of districts, this creates an unfair disadvantage to those left out. Then you add travel time, as EricH said above. I always use the example of WV. If everyone around us goes districts, and leaves us out, where are we going to go? Oh yeah, WV only has 4 teams, they can't support districts! Well we also can't support traveling to Montana paying the ridiculous regional registration fees AND all the travel costs only to get much fewer matches than the other teams ( scenario assuming 90% district saturation).

So include these teams in adjoining districts. I'm sure they'd rather travel the extra hours so they can get the more playing time and cost benefits that districts bring. This is why districts WILL be everywhere. If not, we are going to further alienate our rural teams and make it even harder to get new teams in these areas started up.

I.e. Giving a cost break and allowing more playing time for your money only to teams in FIRST-saturated/urban areas is an unsustainable model. Even if it means a team needs to travel for 6 hours or more to get to a district event, they should do it instead of being stuck with only one big expensive event 10 hours away.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

In the mean time, I saw a while back that Michigan or Indiana was thinking about letting non-resident teams into their District events.

Has that happened yet?

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

By definition FIRST is not allowing non-district teams to compete at district events. However, during the 2015 season they allowed teams in most districts to register for events in different districts (with some logistical changes). In Indiana, this happened with team 2474 in Indy and teams 68 and 107 at Kokomo. Michigan, Indiana, and by extension other districts do not have the power to decide whether or not they let regional teams in - that decision is up to FIRST HQ.

Re: Ohio going to Districts?
 

Pretty true. I'm pretty sure how it worked in Indiana was that it was $5,000 for the 2 events. The third event was $1,000 extra. And the DCMPS was $4,000. And like others were saying, I really feel like we sent the best robots in Indiana. Even the RAS, EI, CA were really good robots.