60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

In the rules, it says that drive teams must set up their robots from transport configuration before each match and pack it back into transport configuration quickly. "60 seconds" is given as a "guideline."

With all the very creative/innovative/complicated robots we are seeing in reveal videos, I am starting to wonder how many of them are going to be able to do that? Do we have any idea how strictly referees are going call the 60-second guideline? I know we made some design decisions with that guideline in mind, but I wonder if some others did not? Or at least hope to abide by the time limit rather loosely?

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

We've got a fairly complicated transport configuration that takes some practice to get done on time.

It's part of our driver practice.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Ours is a decent job, hooking up Anderson Powerpoles, adding bolts, quick release pins, and connecting pneumatic tubing. We developed a procedure for the drive-team to follow, all 4 drive team members are doing something.

One does the drivestation and selects autonomous, second, attaches the left side of our intake, third does right side. This includes one Powerpole and one pneumatic tube each, in addition to 4 bolts and 4 quick release pins.

The coach runs a quick checklist at the end to make sure everything is done. With a few practice runs, we can do this in 48 seconds.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

How are you connecting tubing with pressure in the system?

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Ours is just six pins to install. We managed to keep all powered components inside our main robot body, but we definitely didn't take advantage of the relaxed rules as much as many have.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

The air to the pistons on the intake is stopped by a butterfly valve. Once the tubing is connected to its connectors, the butterfly valve is opened.

The system is also charged with this valve closed.

We're contemplating just having long enough tubing so that we can put it into the transport configuration without the need of the butterfly valve which likes to leak.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

It sounds like you're violating R78A

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I'd imagine the teams that came up with the most creative use of transport configuration took into account setup time.

That being said, for us all we have to do is place two quick release pins in our stacker mechanism once on the field.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Good point... although I wouldn't necessarily take this as a "pressure vent valve", so long as there was a real "pressure vent valve" located elsewhere on the robot. I'd suggest that "pressure vent" describes the function of the valve, and the valve described here is clearly not designed to vent pressure at the end of the match.

So not that I think this setup should be a problem, but the event it is they could simply replace their ball valve with a single-acting solenoid valve and it would be fine.

Jason

P.S. I have no doubt, whatsoever, that teams with the technical ability to generate some of these amazing multi-part designs, will drill, drill and drill to the point where they are quicker at setup than many teams with simpler tasks to perform.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

For Transport Configuration, it's two bolts and two pins. If we happen to find a door that we're too tall at, it's two bolts and two cables (1 USB, 1 powerpole).

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Quick release pins are the bomb.net

Drop in the zone, use the "super-square" I need to make this weekend, drop and lock the back arms, flip the front arms. It can probably be done in 60 seconds. Probably.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Wouldn't that mean that the main pressure vent valve wouldn't always be able to vent all air pressure?

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I agree... but with their butterfly valve open (as it would be during the match) it would essentially be transparent to the rest of the system and the main pressure vent valve would be able to vent all the air pressure.

The simple fact that two FRC veterans see this from different views, however, suggests the team would be wise to make a quick Q&A so they'll know if they need a different solution at their regional.

Jason

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

We have another option should the current setup be deemed illegal.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Certainly. Can someone with Q&A access ask that please?

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Very simply put, ball and butterfly valves are not on the list of allowed pneumatic components, therefore they are not allowed.
The one exception is the one vent plug valve.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

While I doubt we will be seeing referees with a stop watch counting down 60 seconds, I would expect most field team members would want to act like they are. Maybe some will be.

It has always been in the rules that delaying the competition in one way or another with result in penalties. It's in the rules that delaying a match AT ITS CONCLUSION (i.e. delaying field reset) may result in a yellow card. I would be surprised if delaying the start of a match didn't have similar results.

The referees have a schedule to maintain. Quick match cycles make for a much smoother event. No one, be it teams, volunteers or spectators, want to sit there and watch you assemble your robot. If you have a 62 second set-up time I would be expecting referees to be breathing down your neck, but remember, you are keeping people waiting.

Personally, we did everything we could to fit in the transport config. Our current bagged robot fits in the transport configuration with no assembly required. It's faster, and we we don't need to worry about forgetting to do anything aside from turn the robot on (which, historically, I have a bad track record with anyway). When we get to FLR, I dunno. Maybe that'll change. But sizing and set-up requirements I believe should have been part of every team's design choice.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

FIRST wants to stick to it's turn around time (rumor is it'll still be six minutes) but there are always teams who will push the envelope. I'm sure a team that is taking a minute or two at first is fine but if a team is consistently taking too long the ref will most likely give them a hard time. If teams want a certain amount of matches it would be in their best interest to keep delays to a minimum. FIRST will cancel matches to keep up with their deadline of finishing the event on time.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

we're completely within the parameters, no set up needed....but listening to everyone, sounds like we did something wrong :D

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

We actually touched on this subject briefly in a ref call with our event's head ref. I know my head ref likes to give the benefit of the doubt and has said there will not be stop watches. 60 seconds is a guideline. I think what we'll be looking at more than anything is not being on the field building your robot for 60 seconds longer than everyone else.

ie: teams 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 have assembled their robot and gone to their driver's station, but team 6 takes 2 minutes longer when they started at the same time.

It's going to be a tough call, nobody wants to give a YC for that. I don't think there's been a YC given at our regional for delay of game that I can remember.

Oh, and I think we are still sticking to 6 or 7 minute turn arounds, so good luck to everyone! :)

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I'm with Gregor on this one and would suggest that you guys install your "other option". Of Course a Q&A would really help here just to be sure.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I would say this is illegal as the rules are written, per the allowed parts list and the rules about the dump valve.

Instead, use a standard shop compressor quick connect fitting. It's a standard fitting, so it's a legal part, and when disconnected does not leak any air.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

The big issue isn't strictly ruling on the 60 second time... it's on maintaining the pace and turn around time of the matches. Imagine, if you would, everyone taking an extra 15 seconds. With a 60 team event and every team getting 10 qual matches, that's 100 matches, or an extra 1500 seconds - almost half an hour added to the day. The head ref, FTA, field reset, and others around the field are going to be doing everything they can to avoid having that happen.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

We originally felt similarly, until re-reading the rules. We determined that the second valve would fall under R66-F, as a flow control valve.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

But if that valve was left closed, even by accident, it would prevent the main dump valve from releasing all stored pressure.

Why don't you just install your cylinders downstream from a solenoid that is normally closed?

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

The head ref may not be watching the clock, but your FTA will call you out on it (and talk to the head ref) if it is causing a problem.

They will also be more strict as the regional progresses- you will probably have a bit of leeway on Thursday and going into Friday because the FTA(A) will be busy getting teams connected and making sure the field is in working order. Those problems start to go away on Friday though.

If you are still putting your robot together but all the robots are connected to the field and we are ready to go, then I will probably be talking to you about your setup time.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

It bothers me when the field can't stay on schedule. It would bother me even more if it was team set up that was delaying the schedule. If a team consistently takes longer than 60 seconds to set up, I guarantee they will be moved down on our pick list. I have seen penalties in elims for sillier things than this. It's not worth it to us to risk a yellow card every match because our partner can't set up quickly.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Realizing it the LRI at the competition that will be making the ultimate call...
When using a "flow control valve" as a "blocking valve" it ceases being a "flow control valve" and is no longer legal. While not even predicting if the GDC would answer a question about this, the logic is similar to what they used in the past.

Using a quick connect fitting is a good idea, but they are essential check valves which are not legal. Of course if it is considered to be an integral part of an legally allowed connecting fitting...

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

how about leaving the cylinder connected to the tubes, and have a quick mounting system for it? with pins and clips, or something

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

We had a similar pneumatic lockout problem. We solved it with a single acting solenoid. When the robot is disabled it "defaults" to a closed loop and vents the lines that run to the solenoids that run the cylinders, allowing us to disconnect the lines. When the robot is enabled, we enable the solenoid and it sends air to the system that has been attached.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Sounds interesting. I can't wait to see what you guys have been up to at Virginia!

Our team requires four pins and two bolts. Attaches our arms to the main gripper plate. Everything else is well contained within the robot.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Why is a flow control valve not allowed to limit the flow to 0? Can you specify a rule that says it may not? Are you saying that these are not legal, since they can also completely block flow?

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Those are flow control valves and are legal.
If you used a ball shut off valve, then it would NOT be legal.

The rules are very specific on this.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

The device itself can be a legal part, even while its use violates a rule. For example, CIMs and Spikes are legal, but if you use one to control the other your robot is not. If you use a flow control valve to completely isolate a portion of your pneumatic system, you are not in compliance with R78.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

When you say hooking up Anderson Powerpoles, this this imply you are using a powergun, such as a modified power drill with electrical leads and anderson connectors to energize a mechanism back into the transport configuration?

Doesnt seem like this would be allowed per G14 and the definition of tethering given:
Also from the answer of Q329/216 from the Q&A:
Might need to rethink that if that was the plan :ahh:

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

How did you come up with this? It sounds to me like they are simply plugging in the wiring for a motor, which is on a mechanism that gets removed after the match and reinstalled before the next match.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

That may be simply the case, which is why it was a question. :D

Just dont want to see anyone disappointed when they try to go out on/off the field with a powergun and told they are not allowed to.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

It seems obvious to me that they are just using the Powerpoles to make an electrical connection between the robot and an actuator on the removeable appendage. I make that inference because the TechnoKats robot has exactly the same thing.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

This was discussed this season by some of the LRI's R66 is very clear.

Q227 and R78 outlaws using additional vent plugs to stop flow to a system. Since all vent plugs must release pressure to the system in a reasonable time.

Check valves are also illegal.

Q134 Does allow for pluming a solenoid's outputs into a another's input, but warns that the vent plug must always be able to dump all air. I'm not thinking of a simple way to do this. It might be possible for a single solenoid to switch states when it loses pilot pressure and vent the upstream air regardless of state but I'm not sure about that and would need to test it.

Using a needle valve to stop flow seems legal to me at the moment, and I would pass it at an event I was inspecting right now, any other type of valve would be illegal. That could easily change.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Where are they specific on this? I still see no rule saying you cannot limit flow to 0.

The portion being isolated is exposed to atmosphere while in transport configuration. No pressure is being stored there. The "pressure vent plug" will still be capable of releasing all pressure from the pneumatic system.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

If you are not prompt on leaving the field, or once the field is set up, and most of the other teams have cleared, if you are still working on your bot and not finishing up, the Ref's will notice you.

As a RI and a Ref, what I would do is:

Towards the end of practice matches, make a comment to the Driving Team. (think of this as your first warning).

During Qualification matches, make a comment to the LRI and suggest that the robot be reinspected for "Mechanical, End of Match" on the Inspection Check List. The LRI watches matches, so I'm sure it would not take much convincing. (this is your second warning).

The Refs usually eat lunch together and discuss stuff. I'm sure offending robots would be mentioned. If anything happens after this point, the robot has been warned.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

As I said, Flow control valves are legal ... even set to completely shut off flow.

That being said, the seats on those valves generally are not designed for repeated shutoffs and will generally start to leak. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

At the end of the match, the team member responsible for activating ONE vent plug does so and backs off without touching anything else. Is there ANY position possible for this butterfly valve to be in that causes all of the air in the system to not be vented when opening ONE vent plug? It doesn't matter what the transport configuration is, it matters if it is possible at all on the field when ONE vent plug operation is performed. Stuff happens during a match that can cause unintended operation of components.

I am highlighting ONE vent plug since it seems to be pretty important in its distinction as R67D says, "At least one pressure vent plug," R78, "Any pressure vent plug must be:," R78A, "connected to the pneumatic circuit such that, when manually operated, it will vent to the atmosphere to relieve all stored pressure in a reasonable amount of time". If there is a piece in the system that "can" prevent this, then I would think real hard of another way to accomplish the task.

As FTAA, I have to remind way too many teams during an event as to why their robot doesn't seem to have a working RSL light, or any light for that matter. It is AMAZING how many bot loaders forget to squeeze the breaker to actually power on the thing. That alone would make me say no way to a manual valve in the pneumatic system that must be physically opened when they get to the field if it has a chance of not allowing full venting from ONE plug activation. Haven't taken my RI cert test yet for this year, but I know how I would answer if this question comes up in it.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

If they do not follow the proper procedure for opening/closing valves, yes. However, that would hold true with needle valves used as flow valves as well (which are explicitly stated in the rules as being legal in R66). As mentioned previously, there are legal parts that could segment off a portion of the pneumatic system. Why should a ball valve or butterfly valve be different than a needle valve?

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I think it is important to highlight a nuance to the flow control valve function that seems to be missing in this thread. Most pneumatic flow control valves (including this in-line one mentioned by Sean) only restrict flow in one direction. For fittings attached directly to actuators, most are meter-out, although you can find meter-in types. For in-line types, its all in which direction you install it.

This means that the air has two pathways inside the valve, flow in one direction is restricted through the adjustable needle valve. In the opposite flow direction, it can either travel back through the needle, or through a separate internal check valve, which is not restricted.

In the case of using one of these flow controls as suggested in this thread, at no time would the needle valve isolate a portion of the circuit, or prevent complete draining of all pressure when the one relief valve is opened. The check valve integral to the flow control would always allow pressure to be drained completely, even if the needle is fully closed. This is fundamentally different from the use of a ball valve.

As Daniel suggested, you may find the needle valve starts to leak after repeated shut-offs. You will also likely find your one-touch fittings leaking after several re-connections, as they are only good for a dozen or so insertions before the tube needs to be cut shorter.

I would also argue that there are better legal ways to accomplish this (such as a single-acting valve at this connection). A main concern I would have with using a flow control valve is that the team should always drain their pressure completely after the match, before attempting to disconnect this mechanism (regardless of closing the needle valve).

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Because the rules specifically allow flow control valves and do not mention butterfly or ball valves.

It's like the difference between non-skid and grip tape a few years ago.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Bumping this reply because poster has a valid solution that seems to have been looked over

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

We have an alternative solution ready, should our LRI disagree with our assessment of the rules. We don't own any single-acting solenoids, and that's a rather expensive way to solve an issue compared to a flow limiter.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Fair enough, I can see not wanting to spend money on it if you didn't have one laying around. You could also use a double if you had one laying around and just plug up one side.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Another way to do this would be to use tubing to lead to the connector to the other part of the robot. Plug this connector while in transport configuration.

Using a clamp from your tool bag (not a part of the robot), clamp that piece of tubing, remove the plug, attach the other part of the robot, release the clamp, and put the clamp back in your tool bag.

At no time in this process was there any pressurized air that would not have been vented if the plug were opened. Of course, if you found a leak after you removed the clamp, you could have difficulties maintaining that state and still be pressurized at the start of the match.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I'm guessing that you need extra tubing to get to Transport Configuration.

When you are in Competition mode, can you make one or two loops of the excess tubing and secure it somewhere in the robot? A velcro strap would be quick.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Actually, delaying the start doesn't quite have "similar" results. But having a robot sitting on the field in the way because the head ref signaled for it to be disabled isn't going to help your scoring. (And no, you can't remove it from the field without the head ref's permission. Sorry.) No card given in the match start delay.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I am not saying definitively that it is one way or the other. Search CD you will find many cases of similar gray areas like this being ruled differently at different compitetions.
The andymark one has an reverse flow check vavle so it is self venting. A good argument for it being legal.
Personaly I like Jon's suggestion the best. A quick release fitting has the flow, designed for the job, & where he is LRI, will probably pass unless Q&A says otherwise. :]

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

And you know I'll be talking to you about how far behind we are. :)

I will also be watching the clock and logging the teams that abuse the setup window. Without the FTAs and refs being strict on this, the cycle times are going to be horrible. At the week zero in Itasca last week, the cycle times averaged 10.8 minutes (yes, I counted) and I heard that the cycle times in New Hampshire were on the order of 10 minutes.

We cannot do that next week, it's not acceptable to be running 3 hours behind at the end of the day.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

At the PNW Auburn Mountainview district event, we were running 2 hours behind schedule and they changed the rules, having teams go in and out of transport config while off the field. No penalties were ever called for delay, and some of the top teams were always taking over 60 seconds.

They said this was changed at multiple events and something should be coming out in next Tuesday's update.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Hmmm... We made design decisions that limited robot capabilities because we thought we'd have to play by the rule... Top teams should be able to follow it... I would be upset if we were eliminated by a team that didn't follow it and received a "pass."

Assuming we all followed the rules I'm happy with the change. As a drive team member even though all we had to do to switch configs was tighten and loosen 2 bolts I still had my fears.

Good change Imo but I understand the frustration.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

At MAR Mt Olive, There was a team that was always over 2:00, and at one time 2:26 for setup, after being warned. Their next match,, they were disabled. I'm not sure at what time allowance. Almost all teams were less than 1:00.. Yes, it does happen.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

There were teams taking almost as long as 15 minutes to get their robot in the transport configuration in Toronto. That will not do.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

Technically, they were told at 1:00 (in that mach after repeated warnings) that they were at maximum time for robot configuration. They stopped assembling, but because of the state their robot was in at that time, they chose not to turn it on. They were not disabled by officials--because they had in fact stopped and thus didn't G10--and would've been allowed to play had they chosen to turn it on. This was explained to them pre-match (by me).

Lesson Learned: After that match, including into elims, they were right around 1:00 for configuration. In fact, no actual G10 disables were imposed at Mount Olive.

The interpretation of G10 at this event was that, "as a guideline, ROBOTS should be configurable in fewer than sixty (60) seconds" means robots should be designed to move in and and of transport configuration in approximately 60 seconds each. ~1:10 was not punished, nor were one-off/occasional violations (not 'designs'), nor was taking more time to do what teams do every year, e.g. align for autonomous. As above, teams would be asked to stop assembling at 60 seconds or be disabled. This only happened once and came after repeated warnings and two visits from inspectors looking to help them get faster. Teams and RIs stopped all other over-timers before they reached this point.

Our typical ons and offs were 2 minutes, and we finished 76 matches 15 minutes early running 7 minute intervals.

Re: 60 second set-up / pack-up time?
 

I'm only just now reading some of these, but 15 minutes for configuration?!

Holy cow. When I was at GSCR, a Week 0 event, we managed to run pretty much on schedule. We even finished Friday (our Saturday) only a minute and a half behind schedule! To make all that sound even more crazy, we never disabled or penalized a single robot/team for taking too long; Everybody played, always. :)