Chief Delphi - Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

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de_	23-02-2015 15:25

Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

We used to use a hot glue gun to stick in pwm cables that were prone to coming out. Someone said there was a rule last year that would not allow that. I could never find it. Is there such a rule this year ?

Daniel_LaFleur

23-02-2015 15:37

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by de_ (Post 1448798)

I believe a rule like R55 was the issue last year.
The bolded section I believe now allows hot glue, but I am not an official source and I would Q&A this just to be sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rules

R55 The Driver Station software, roboRIO, Power Distribution Panel, Pneumatics Control Modules, Voltage Regulator Modules, RSL,
120A breaker, motor controllers, relay modules, Wireless Bridge, and batteries shall not be tampered with, modified, or adjusted
in any way (tampering includes drilling, cutting, machining, rewiring, disassembling, etc.), with the following exceptions:
A. User programmable code in the roboRIO may be customized.
B. Motor controllers may be calibrated as described in owner’s manuals.
C. Fans may be attached to motor controllers and may be powered from the power input terminals.
D. If powering the compressor, the fuse on a Spike H-Bridge Relay may be replaced with a 20A Snap-Action circuit breaker.
E. Wires, cables, and signal lines may be connected via the standard connection points provided on the devices.
F. Fasteners (including adhesives) may be used to attach the device to the OPERATOR CONSOLE or ROBOT or to secure
cables to the device.
G. Thermal interface material may be used to improve heat conduction.
H. Labeling may be applied to indicate device purpose, connectivity, functional performance, etc.
I. Jumpers may be changed from their default location.
J. Limit switch jumpers may be removed from a Jaguar motor controller and a custom limit switch circuit may be substituted.
K. Device firmware may be updated.
L. Integral wires on the Victor SP or Talon SRX may be cut, stripped, and/or connectorized.
M. Devices may be repaired, provided the performance and specifications of the device after the repair are identical to those
before the repair.

Ether

23-02-2015 15:44

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1448806)

The bolded section I believe now allows hot glue, but I am not an official source and I would Q&A this just to be sure.

Did you bold the wrong section?

Quote:

R55 The Driver Station software, roboRIO, Power Distribution Panel, Pneumatics Control Modules, Voltage Regulator Modules, RSL,
120A breaker, motor controllers, relay modules, Wireless Bridge, and batteries shall not be tampered with, modified, or adjusted
in any way (tampering includes drilling, cutting, machining, rewiring, disassembling, etc.), with the following exceptions:
A. User programmable code in the roboRIO may be customized.
B. Motor controllers may be calibrated as described in owner’s manuals.
C. Fans may be attached to motor controllers and may be powered from the power input terminals.
D. If powering the compressor, the fuse on a Spike H-Bridge Relay may be replaced with a 20A Snap-Action circuit breaker.
E. Wires, cables, and signal lines may be connected via the standard connection points provided on the devices.
F. Fasteners (including adhesives) may be used to attach the device to the OPERATOR CONSOLE or ROBOT or to secure
cables to the device.
G. Thermal interface material may be used to improve heat conduction.
H. Labeling may be applied to indicate device purpose, connectivity, functional performance, etc.
I. Jumpers may be changed from their default location.
J. Limit switch jumpers may be removed from a Jaguar motor controller and a custom limit switch circuit may be substituted.
K. Device firmware may be updated.
L. Integral wires on the Victor SP or Talon SRX may be cut, stripped, and/or connectorized.
M. Devices may be repaired, provided the performance and specifications of the device after the repair are identical to those
before the repair.

Daniel_LaFleur

23-02-2015 15:48

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ether (Post 1448812)

Did you bold the wrong section?

No ... But your section is far more correct :p

FrankJ

23-02-2015 15:49

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

R64 from last years manual was interpreted to mean no hot glue on the motor controller.

Quote:

R64 The Driver Station software, cRIO, Power Distribution Board, Digital Sidecars, Analog Breakouts, Solenoid Breakouts, RSL, 120A breaker, motor controllers, relay modules, Wireless Bridge, 12VDC-5VDC converter, and batteries shall not be tampered with, modified, or adjusted in any way (tampering includes drilling, cutting, machining, gluing, rewiring, disassembling, etc.), with the following exceptions:

R55 is the equivalent rule from this years rules. Note the missing gluing prohibition.

Quote:

I think it is safe to say that First's LRI (Al) continues to think that it is a poor practice & there are better solutions. Other disagree on this point. Don't fill you motor controller with hot glue.

And I need to learn to type faster. :]

MrRoboSteve

23-02-2015 23:01

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Preferred solution here is to place a cable tie base near the termination of the PWM cable, and tie it down so it doesn't move.

If it still comes out, a small piece of quality electrical tape should be enough to hold it in place. A giant gob of tape just makes it difficult to inspect whether it's connected.

IKE	24-02-2015 10:26

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Check out this Blog post for a really neat idea:
http://wildstang.org/blog/?p=225

de_	27-02-2015 11:28

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Thanks so much for the clarification. Its nice to know that we have that tool available should the need be there and no better solution was at hand.

Sperkowsky

27-02-2015 11:57

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

I believe this was in the inspection thread.Its legal but......

Dont do it.

3d print the cable magic if you want to make them fit tighter. or solder it if you want to fix the cable but imo hot glue is not good near electronics

Cory	27-02-2015 12:18

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1450719)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hot gluing pwm connectors down. It will not harm them unless you actually touch the tip of the glue gun to the insulation on the wire.

Sperkowsky

27-02-2015 14:08

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1450730)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hot gluing pwm connectors down. It will not harm them unless you actually touch the tip of the glue gun to the insulation on the wire.

correct me if Im wrong but couldnt the hotglue insulate the contacts and ruin the rio when you try to take it off.

pmangels17

27-02-2015 14:38

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1450784)

correct me if Im wrong but couldnt the hotglue insulate the contacts and ruin the rio when you try to take it off.

You may be overestimating the amount of hot glue needed to secure the cables. All that is needed is a small (less than pea sized) dab to hold the connector in place. Any more and it's probably overboard.

Sperkowsky

28-02-2015 18:00

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmangels17 (Post 1450794)

probably....I tend to have a heavy trigger finger

Al Skierkiewicz

03-03-2015 22:26

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

I can only reiterate, if you think about this a little you can up with a solution that is less permanent than hot glue and less damaging when applied by someone who does not do this for a living. You really need to walk around with me for a few events and see the horror I see inflicted by teams.
If you glue it in and it fails, you may not be able to replace it fast enough on Einstein. Just saying...

Alan Anderson

04-03-2015 09:46

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 1453129)

...a solution that is less permanent than hot glue...

Maybe you're used to a different sort of hot glue. The kind I am familiar with is far from permanent when used on something non-porous like plastic. It is easily removed from both connectors and Victors with a fingernail. We're not talking red Loctite here.

Al Skierkiewicz

04-03-2015 09:54

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Alan,
In practice I have seen hot glue on plastic that can only be removed with a razor blade. When applied to the PWM connector of a speed controller or RoboRio, the glue also migrates into the connector body and interior of the device. On a Victor, this would be a permanent solution IMHO.
Al

Alan Anderson

04-03-2015 11:39

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 1453284)

In practice I have seen hot glue on plastic that can only be removed with a razor blade. When applied to the PWM connector of a speed controller or RoboRio, the glue also migrates into the connector body and interior of the device.

You have definitely seen some variety of hot glue that doesn't match anything in my experience. The kind I use doesn't come close to being able to "migrate".

When I say "hot glue" I mean the kind that comes in clearish/whitish finger-sized sticks and gets extruded through a hollow heating element, coming out as a skinny thread of sticky squishable plastic with the approximate consistency of gel-style toothpaste. It quickly cools to a slightly pliable solid form, sticking to whatever it is contact with. When hot, it does not flow into cracks; one would have to force it there intentionally as if spackling a hole.

Ether

04-03-2015 11:59

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 1453284)

Al, It almost sounds like you are talking about 2-part epoxy, which reacts exothermically (gets hot) when the 2 parts are mixed. Many formulations of 2-part epoxy tend to wick and migrate during the curing process. When cured, it is permanent and quite difficult to remove.

Al Skierkiewicz

04-03-2015 12:58

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

The hot glue I am talking about will run like a warm milk shake letting gravity take it where it wants. The tools I have used act like a 'runny nose' and drip constantly while hot. While I was writing this, I remembered that there is a product you can buy at Office Depot that is intended for tacking posters to a wall. That should do the trick, be easily removable, and will not contaminate electronics. It looks a lot like Playdough.

AdamHeard

04-03-2015 13:00

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

We use standard hobby low heat (white gun, not blue) hot glue.

What Al is describing isn't comparable at all, we've never had issues with hot glue. Only the smallest dot is needed anyway. It doesn't flow, it's very viscous when hot.

MasterMentor

04-03-2015 13:10

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

We use a drop of red nail polish - it creates a non-permanent bond that is easily breakable when necessary, holds the PWM connector in place, and the team moms usually have a ready supply of it. I got the idea from a post here on CD.

MM

Alan Anderson

04-03-2015 14:34

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 1453400)

The hot glue I am talking about will run like a warm milk shake letting gravity take it where it wants. The tools I have used act like a 'runny nose' and drip constantly while hot.

Now your extreme aversion to the stuff becomes understandable.

I'm also now pretty sure that what you're referring to isn't what anyone else in FRC wants to use. While the usual craft-style hot glue guns do drip at times, what falls from the nozzle has a consistency closer to warm peanut butter than to warm milk shake. Think beeswax, not honey.

Quote:

While I was writing this, I remembered that there is a product you can buy at Office Depot that is intended for tacking posters to a wall. That should do the trick, be easily removable, and will not contaminate electronics. It looks a lot like Playdough.

Plasti-Tak and similar materials are neither sticky enough nor solid enough to have the desired effect on a PWM connector. They adhere well to paper, and the typical amount used gives a large area of contact to spread out the force, but if you try to use them to do something like affix a PWM connector to a Spike it'll stretch and/or tear and/or simply roll off the part.

IKE	05-03-2015 09:48

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1453401)

Any chance you can send a picture of it "being applied as a little dab". I have always considered this a "best practice" to use a small dab of hot glue or RTV between the PWM connector and the housing to act as a anchor for impacts and shock.

That being said, when inspecting, I have obeserved several connectors that it was clear someone thought "more is better" and flooded the: CAN, PWM, Ethernet... connector. I typically see a couple of these per competition towards the end of the season. Often for an ethernet or JAG CAN that someone has brocken a tab on. Once the team gets to that state, they tend to have some sort of issue during most matches.

Googling "hot glue electrical connector" or "RTV electrical", I saw a lot of images of hot glue being used as some sort of conformable coating/filling which is not recommended for these connections.

MrRoboSteve

05-03-2015 10:36

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

There's nothing wrong with properly applied hot glue. The problem is that it's very easy to improperly apply it, and then you end up with a big mess that is sometimes unrecoverable. Al's observation, based on looking at more robots than (nearly) everyone here, is that many teams can't apply small amounts of hot glue.

The approach I suggest (combination of adhesive backed cable base, tie wrap, and small amount of electrical tape [please use fresh 3M brand tape]) is one of several that a) work, b) are difficult to screw up, and c) don't end up with an unrecoverable mess if executed wrong.

ArtemusMaximus

12-03-2015 12:57

Re: Hot Glue Legal to Glue PWM cables ?

"to glue or not to glue, that is the question"

In my opinion it's as simple as this: rules do not prohibit, so you can do it.
You can do it - yes, but should you, that's another question to answer.

In my experience, hot gluing is not a precise method, accompanied by multitude of "glue hair" strings. So at the end of the day, it's a matter of managing benefit/risk ratio.

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