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Week 1 Observations
Hi, decided I'm going to make a thread with observations from week one events and will be adding to this throughout the week, any observations you make, comment them and I'l add them to the list. Also criticism is greatly appreciated! These are my personal observations and opinions on what I am seeing
Average match score prediction 30-40 Rank one average scores 70-90 at least for week one, I will be updating predicted scores also Be prepared to update your firmware. Bring a flash drive with the most updated firmware for your PDP, PCM, Roborio and Talon SRX. thank you ehochstein for the info!
Poll on throwing noodles http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=135219 I will be updating as matches continue! |
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When I went to a week 0 event, I was surprised at how quickly I couldn't really tell what was happening on the field once the match started. Unless you have a robot on your alliance that can effectively clean up missed noodles, a human player with dead-on accuracy when throwing, or you desperately need points if it's a close match (only applicable in finals), I don't think throwing noodles is going to be a very popular strategy once teams realize how much clutter it results in on the field. |
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I underestimated utility this year which is weird normally I over emphasize it.
Just saw a tethered robot and the actual "footprint" created by the tether was a lot bigger then I had accounted for. Size is killing some robots be it with center of gravity or just trying to get around, shout out to GDC for smart resource placement. |
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Let me just give a general "thank you!" for sharing this insight with the community! |
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From a Robot Inspector at Lake Superior... Be prepared to update your firmware. Bring a flashdrive with the most updated firmware for your PDP, PCM, Roborio and Talon SRX.
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Recycle rush is the most garbage game ever
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Can anyone explain the process used for measuring transport configuration?
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Transport: 28 in. wide, 42 in. long, and 78 in. tall. 120lbs max internal weight They will likely have a box with those dimensions to test. |
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You know I had a chance to make a joke and I missed it but here goes anyway.
For inspection generally you see maybe one or two mimes at competition. These mimes are in charge of making invisible walls around your robot and if there are any cracks between where the invisible walls should meet then your robot doesn't pass. After security has chased the people randomly dressed up mimes away they lay down a tape square and do it for real. |
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How it was done today in Dallas Quote:
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If the path to center of the step is even slightly impeded for either alliance, just call off any coopertition actions.
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What about prioritizing totes to clear a path to the step in that scenario. Or snow plows?
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I'm not sure what the level of interest will be in watching all of the matches. After watching a team a couple of matches it all becomes quite predictable. The only question will be if certain teams improve substantially over the competition. This will become less relevant as the season progresses and teams reach their level of proficiency.
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The mess on the field when one team makes a mistake is so crazy and so detrimental to the team. Another underestimation by a good 300% on my end. Mobility is more important then I thought it would be. These 6 stacks are so slow to make and so bad if they topple. The more I see the more clear the team comp gets and the more stupid I feel but whatever...
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#oldschoolreference |
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(which I got to from the usfirst.org FRC page, Technical Resources, Programming, on the menu on the left) https://wpilib.screenstepslive.com/s/4485 On the left side of the page, "Current Software Revisions" is the link you want. |
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www.neofra.com/resources/links |
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Dead on accuracy with throwing noddles isn't something very hard to get; I've seen several human players who are nailing their noodle shots into the opposite wall. In one practice match a human player tossed 10 noodles and beat the opposing alliance. He alone scored 33 points with no robot working on his alliance, while also making it harder for the opposing alliance by cluttering the space around the human player station on the opposite side
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1 noodles make little difference other than clogging up the field.
2 co op pts are huge almost every alliance try to do it. Lots succeed. 3 no 3 tote stacks in auto at the 2 events I was at. Not many pts scored in auto overall. 4 low scores overall. games in the single digits 5 teams communication with everyone playing prior to game is very important |
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I am in duluth missed that one. Working other event. The blue alliance shows 2 done in auto by 2512. Still very good !! Are you using encoders to drive straight?
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As for driving straight, I tend to try to focus 10 to 12 seconds down the road. If you're asking how the robot does it, I have no clue, I'm just running the FMS and occasionally running ranking reports to Pit Admin. |
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But we might also bring 2 containers into the zone as well.... |
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Is there a link to a video?
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Very cool! !!
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Allen, Having a legal robot should be every teams priority. Updating PCM, PDP, and Talon firmware is easier than tying your shoes. |
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So, just some observations I have made during the first day of competition at Howell....
- Co-Op Scores is the easiest way for points, any alliance that doesn't do this in quals drops pretty fast in rankings. However, both teams must be aware that this is going to happen and plan it out, similar to 2012 - Grabbing bins from the centers is often useless and just clogs the fields more. More often then not, they just fall over, and few teams are able to pick these up. - Noodle Agreement 2.0: Both teams are waiting till either the co-op set/stack is complete, or there are 40 seconds left in the match, as to not make a mess on their own side, or in the way of their opponents as they work for the co-op. - If you don't make it clear to your teammates to stay out of an area, you are very likely to lose your 5 stack with a bin. - Teams that stack 4 high with container/litter are able to do much faster and with a lesser chance to fall then when doing 5/6 (107 is able to do up to 2 of these in a match, getting 60 points easily by themselves in later matches rather than in their first ones where they spent the entire match on one 5 tote stack, getting only 36 points. - Totes going out the chute with nothing there will bounce almost anywhere and are unpredictable, just putting a drive train a few inches further than the length of a tote away from the chute usually keeps them falling right side up and often in an easy to access orientation. |
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G5 More than one person in the Human Player Zone G6 HP in contact with both tote and chute door G6-1 Prop open chute door - If the tote is stuck in the chute, do NOT release the chute door until the tote is cleared by the robot or gently shaking the chute. G23 robot - knocks stack over, and it falls out of the field G24 robot, while Coop stacking, knocks stack over onto other side of the field G30 leave alliance station - do not step off the carpet G31/G32 Coach touches anything G33 throwing litter during last 20 seconds |
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Not going to get much from week one. Teams were leaving in the middle of the day out of the blue (from what I'm told in Texas when a school closes kids on a field trip are required to go home ASAP unless they have an exception or have a hotel to stay at) so we had alot of surrogates for teams and we even had to have surrogates for surrogates. It was a mess.
It was a pleasure to watch beautifully designed robots like 987,118 and 148 at work. I took a video of one of 148's matches. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...44&pnref=story |
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At least on the webcast, the lack of actual head-to-head competition between alliances really hurts the excitement level. The final 20 seconds of the match loses a lot of suspense when you're only worrying about a marginal increase in each team's score rather than swinging the match to a win or loss.
I love the highly visible black-on-white numbers. |
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Smooth is faster than fast. Especially this year.
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Use a tote horizontally parallel to the human player station to keep totes from falling on their sides when they come from the "chute door". Yes, chute door.
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-When resetting the field, throw all the blue noodles to the blue side and all the red noodles to the red side. Also, be kind to them. It's extemely easy to make them unusable: driving on them with Mechanum is the easiest way.
-At most, the best teams made two tall stacks with a bin on top, and once they finely tuned their strategy, maybe a stack of three as well. -extremely common: throwing noodles in last 20 seconds, two people in HP zone. -coopertition is so important. Since averages dictate rank, it's an easy way to rank higher. This is probably known. -teams usually wait for coopertition to start flinging noodles. Don't fling them willy-nilly, they really dictate the first few matches. |
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I've noticed a couple things
-From what I've seen, teams have resorted to loading at the Human Player station rather than mining the Landfill -Noodle throwing doesn't work out very well -Step cans weren't as important as I thought (although I haven't watch any elim matches yet) -Coopertition is pretty important |
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If you gather totes at the landfill, litter is the bane of your existence.
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I have definitely noticed today that litter makes a very large difference when going for co-op. Almost all alliances I have worked with have agreed to not throw litter until the co-op stack is scored. This is very helpful for both sides.
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1) the win-loss format adds (at least some) excitement to a low scorer if a team pulls a come from behind win. This year's low scorers are brutal...
2) teams need to know beforehand if they are sensitive to coop tote placement. If you know you can't reach far and can tell the other side, they can set and then poke it forward a little. 3) many teams have nice stable lifts but can't move stacks. They need to convince teammates to fetch totes to them on the platform. |
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What I've noticed from watching the Hatboro-Horsham district livestream (and the rest of the Dallas Regional after HH ended for the day):
- It is really easy to really mess up everything for yourself by dropping a full stack. I expected this, but it seems worse than I thought -> teams who normally score ~100 points barely reaching 30, etc. - There aren't as many ambitious designs as I had expected - most every team went with the expected stackers, leading me to really applaud 148 for actually going through with the "tethered bot" idea. - Do not let go of the door with a Tote stuck in it, you will get a yellow card. - If you knock a tote onto the step, you may be penalized. - If you knock over a co-op stack, you will almost definitely be penalized. - Some teams mastered throwing Litter. Some have made great uses for it in Containers. Others did not. - Auton is far more strategic than in previous years - the relatively low point value and relatively high difficulty makes doing other things in auton far more viable, often even desirable. - Just being able to do something is hard. I had expected far more "pushers" -> robots who didn't try stacking, but instead just plowed for a bunch of two pointers, maybe making a stack of two. -Teams should really try helping out their future alliance partners more with getting an auton that can at least drive/push something working. I imagine/hope many teams are doing that, but I still am seeing a very sizable teams at HH not even try to move. |
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Coop points are important but can skew rankings. Coop doesn't count in finals so stacking and autonomous becomes critical. In Palmetto, 3824 could reliably do two 42 pt stacks from the loading station. Teamed with 4454 who could do a 42 stack from the loading station and a 3rd that could do a small stack from the field. Finals were intense with four huge stacks on a tight field. Third pick (feel terrible not recalling their number) was critical, getting a bin from the step and creating a 4th stack in finals for a 150 to 133 win.
Also, tank drives struggled in Palmetto. Holonomic omnidirectionality with swerves or meccanums is critical. It's a very tight field! |
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Some recommendations after week 1 SFR (south Florida Regional). Below are a list of observed issues. These are in order of most common to least common
1. Update your DS software, PDP and PCM firmware to the required versions. 1. Check the seating depth of your PDP fuses, I cannot stress this enough. A good rule of thumb for this; If you can remove the fuse by hand, without the use of pliers, then it is NOT properly seated. 2. Robot Wiring - Teams should pull test every connection on the robot, specifically the Weidmuller connectors (push-in-type connector on PCM/VRM/PDP). Try to pull the wire out, you do not need to be gentle. If the wire can be removed without pressing the white button you should re-strip and re-seat as necessary. Also check the main battery, breaker and PDP terminals. Make sure these connections are not loose. You should not be able to move these connections without the use of tools. 3. Driver Station Computer - Disable all power management features of your DS computer. Specifically sleep and hibernate features. This can affect connectivity to the field as hibernate and sleep disable network connection and sometimes do not re-enable properly upon wake. 4. Disable all firewall and antivirus software. This can also affect field connectivity. A few teams had this issue. 5. Battery Quality - Not all SLA batteries are created equally. Some brands of batteries contain more pure lead, more consistent chemistry and lower internal resistance than others. From my experience, the MK and Genesis batteries seem to perform the best. They have a much lower internal resistance than some of the other brands out there. Having said that, all lead acid batteries degrade over time and use, so it is a good practice to test your batteries regularly. 6. PERFORM A COMPLETE ROBOT SYSTEMS CHECK BEFORE EACH MATCH!!! If you are not doing this you are inviting failure. Catch issues before they cost your team and your alliance partners a match. These are my observation made by both myself and Ken Gardner while CSAing at SFR. |
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You can update the DS software and do items 3, 4, and 5 on Mike's list with the robot in the bag. |
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Was ere a problem at the South Florida regional that caused it to go so late last night or just so many teams that it took so long to get through qualifications? I am trying to help my team plan ahead for when we go to the Utah regional in a couple weeks.
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Did you perhaps mean Dallas, which finished at around 9:00-10:00 mountain time? If so, it is because they had to end qualifications matches on Friday at ~3:00 due to weather concerns. This meant they had to finish qualification matches on Saturday afternoon before they could do alliance selections and eliminations. |
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Where is everyone finding match results/rankings/etc? The Blue Alliance only has some of the information I'm looking for, and FRC Spyder stopped updating after the third match for everyone at South Florida this weekend.
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There is no room for error in eliminations. In quals, a bad match can be overcome because it's only 1/12 - 1/9 of your average. But in quarters and semis, where your average is based on 2-3 matches, you have to be on point for every match. Finals actually is more error tolerant because of the W-L-T system.
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I much prefer the 2 out of 3 W-L format for playoffs. |
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Honestly, in the playoff format, the finals this year are easier than the quarters and semis.
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Even something as simple as a "noodle plow" requires a good driver and some decent manipulation capability. As for the totes and recycling containers, their weight and the height they must be lifted means that you need some serious engineering and manufacturing skill to build a machine that can put a full stack together. |
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Yes, it requires a fair amount of engineering knowledge and experience to be competitive. At the same time, many excellent resources have been established to provide less resourced teams with the strategy, design and manufacturing capability to contribute. It has been derided (my inference) as a glorified skills contest. I agree, it is a glorified skills contest and I like it very much. |
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Here are my observations and suggestions. - Co-op can be a huge factor in your rankings, but you have to work together to achieve it. No litter and no landfill work near the middle of the field until that task is complete. - I saw too many teams driving with totes in the air in an unstable configuration. Leave them on the ground and push them on the platform. - Don't turn fast. Angular momentum is your enemy unless you have tote stablizers. - The field is crowded. Have an alliance plan on where you will work. - There is a way to make totes land flat on the floor. It's a bit hard to describe, but essentially you use the chute door to drag the back 3 inches of the tote as it exits the chute. Takes practice, but I highly recommend it. David |
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Viewing impressive solutions to this challenge, I think, isn't indicative of game design quality. Every game has interesting solutions and nuances, this one is no better. The game, as mentioned formerly, is boring. When explaining to others not involved in the program, it is difficult to describe and often lacks the interesting aspect that other games have had in the past. In fact, it was a stretch to even make this a 'game', or manipulate it to fit the current competition format, which I guess FIRST had to do due to institutional difficulties. |
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I like this game. I wouldn't say it's my favorite, or least favorite, but I just don't see why everyone hates it so much. Admittedly it would be more fun to watch if more robots actually did stuff, but I'm thinking that will improve over the next 6 weeks. |
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I hate this game. Hopefully next year game will be better.
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I've seen a lot of games since 2004. This one is a very interesting technical challenge for my team, and I like the solutions they came up with a lot, though they don't really approach 148, 624, et al. I look forward to our chance to be on the field in Utah week three. Still, I don't think this game is going to be as much fun to watch as 2013 or 2014, even as the weeks go by and teams dial in their strategies. I speculate that the nature of the game was driven by:
I'm still optimistic, but I also am one of those that liked Lunacy, so... |
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Great game whats needed are better designed robots.... not easy to be effective and to be badly designed.... this game points out those flaws for all to see. Also driver abilities have a huge impact.
What works: HP loaders up to 6 tall with RC Versatile robots that can do it all Wall stacker coop What doesn't all else |
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Some observations:
Auto stacks are massive, if a team can make one consistently they will be a game changer the entire competition. At both of this weekend's New England district events, the 1 seed and winning alliance captain had auto stacks. Having one robot make tall stacks and another cap the stacks with RCs is a great strategy if neither robot can do both quickly. 1519 and 95 at Granite State employed this for a dominant win, with 1519 making stacks of 4 from the landfill and 95 capping them. Throwing noodles CAN be a viable strategy if the human players can get them across consistently, especially in elims where you won't mess up coopertition. I saw and heard about advancement in elims being decided by noodles a few times. |
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For example, I can't watch golf or downhill skiing for more than 5 minutes without getting bored. This doesn't mean that these are poor competitions, just that I don't find them interesting. People like me will generally not get as much enjoyment out of games like Recycle Rush as we would AA or UA because there is not any head-to-head competition. I also don't enjoy sports like bowling where there is a score ceiling. Watching sports like these makes viewers have less appreciation for success, since for example, strikes in bowling come to be commonplace. People then start watching for the mistakes. Again, this does not mean that bowling is a poor game, just that it doesn't suit my taste. Both Recycle Rush and Logomotion have had "soft" score ceilings. That is, there are hardly any matches that actually will hit the ceiling, but at high levels, more effort will be required to get the same score increase (top pegs full in 2011, RCs all used in 2015). I'm not particularly excited for championships when teams with amazing robots that don't play perfectly will lose to teams with poorer robots that had slightly better execution. This game has those two strikes against it for me, which probably makes it my least favorite game I have participated in. However, my team still built a great robot, and I will still have fun at every competition I will attend. I wouldn't be in FRC if I wanted to play Rebound Rumble every year. We need to have random games like this for those who actually enjoy games like bowling or golf. |
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I don't like this game because it's less exciting for spectators. Getting sponsors and parents to come is a lot easier when it's a fast paced shooting game
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Unless all 3 teams are certain to do it, the risks strongly outweigh the rewards. (Risk losing 40 points for a long shot at 4 points?!!? No thanks). And so as a result, few teams try, and few teams can do it, and so on... I really think they ought to give 1 or 2 points for single robots or totes, and then a bonus for sets. That would change the incentive structure, I think. Cheers, Jeremy |
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I have a lot of problems with this game. I just can't find a good way to say them without rambling. But my main problems in line with rules that don't support weak teams and allow superstar teams to do everything on the field without any need for teamwork on the alliance. (Staying out of each other's way isn't very good "teamwork" imo) |
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Our elims alliance in Lake superior all moved forward in auto and didn't mess with totes or RC's in auto in fear of tipping a RC over. Those RC's are worth too much and we were limited to only be able to pick up the RC's when they are standing up vertically. We didn't take the risk we just stuck to driving forward in auto. |
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We competed at Southfield.
Things we thought would be a big deal but weren't:
Things that we didn't foresee:
Things that were as expected:
Other general notes:
Overall, I like this game. I very much dislike the new system for playoffs. |
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After spending the weekend at the Northern Lights Regional at the northern end of I35 (compared to all the buzz about the one near the southern end of I35) my observations are:
Pros: 1. A manipulation game vs. a shooting/throwing game is a very nice change. Quick scoring is still highly valued but this game requires smooth driving and finesse. 2. I was concerned the playoffs would be fairly predictable and end up with the alliances getting the same score for every playoff match. This was not the case and the playoffs were exciting through the finals. Our alliance (3130, 525, & 4215) had scores ranging from 99 to 163 over the 7 playoff matches. With the scoring coming in large chunks one wrong move can completely change a match outcome. 3. Alliances of robots with varying ability is a huge benefit. We are a feeder station robot and can make 2 stacks with containers. 3130 was very good at getting containers off the step and can make 2 stacks with containers from the landfill. 4215 made stacks from the other feeder station. Picking alliance partners with the best skill fit is critical to success this year. Cons: 1. The alliance vs. alliance competition is missing and takes away some of the excitement. In previous games strategic decisions on both alliances matter. Not so much this year. 2. Since high scores is all that matters, coopertition was and will not be a priority for all teams. Simply put some teams can score as many or more points on their own as they can doing the coopertition stack. We had to turn down doing coopertition with our opposing alliance because it was not advantageous to us. That’s not how we like to play but given the qualification scoring rules we have no choice but to maximize our score every match. We are sorry to any teams we had to have that discussion with. 3. Autonomous is very strange this year. Unless a team can get the three tote set, there is not much value in doing any autonomous scoring. An orderly field is easier for teams to plan a strategy around and generally the autonomous routines I saw made a mess of the field leaving it in a disadvantageous state for teleop. With more work we think we can get the three tote stack in autonomous but I doubt we will work on it any more. The risk does not outweigh the reward so we are likely to continue to use autonomous to get a container in position for teleop. Other: 1. At Northern Lights the two teams that could make two 4-6 tall stacks with containers had qualification scores in the mid 90’s. There’s a significant gap to the next 6 qualifying scores which were in the upper 60’s to upper 70’s. Getting 2 tall stacks in 135 seconds will put teams at the top of the ranking. The litter and cooperation points average out over all the matches. 2. While coopertition points are a good way to get qualification points they have no value in the playoffs. Alliance selection picks need to consider this. |
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We didnt have a single G6 of touching tote and chute door, and only one red card in the entire event. :) |
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Two other things I like about this game:
- It's not hard to avoid fouls, and the point values for most fouls seem reasonable, and - The playoff format ensures more matches in the semi-finals; each team is guaranteed 3, rather than two plus a possible third. More matches is more of a reward for making it to playoffs. (It would be better if they got three in the quarter-finals too.) |
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One thing I noticed (at least in MAR):
G6-1 is a killer. I saw at least 3 yellow cards and one red card from it. For reference,G6-1 is the rule that says you can't prop open the chute door. That was a problem, I'm assuming, because HP's left totes in the chute with the door open and unattended. Or something like that. |
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Yes this: Quarterfinals in Regional (2 matches) 4-5 3-6 2-7 1-8 4-6 3-5 2-8 1-7 |
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Oh, well, that's a drag. But I see why it's necessary, to save time.
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It's really difficult to watch both alliances work at the same time. It's almost like there are two separate "games" coexisting at the same time.
The other thing that I thought was kind of funny was that this is the only year to my knowledge where a #1 seed can end up playing as the blue alliance. |
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