Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Scores are fairly low. Rarely seeing a stack of any kind with the majority of the points coming from the golden totes.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

yes, so far it looks like if you get the coopertition 40 each match you are going to seed very high. Not counting Dallas...

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Not surprised. Coop points will rule the rankings. At district champs and worlds, coop during qualifying will be expected.

I'm surprised to see no one starting with the yellow totes behind the glass. If you don't make a 3 stack in auto and load from HP, why not make it faster/easier to get that coop bonus.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I'm certain that no matter what happens, some will be surprised, others will (at least say) that it's exactly what they expected.

I don't see any scores posted on TBA yet, but I just watched a match at Dallas, and it ended up 148 to 36, with 40 of those points for each alliance being a coopertition stack (there were fouls). Most of the points were scored by one robot. That one top-tier robot racked up all those points isn't surprising. That all of the other five did so very little is surprising; I would have expected at least two or three of those robots to be scoring a dozen points or more each.

Addendum: That was followed by a zero-zero match (no scoring, a penalty on each side voided) Wow. It's only the first round; hopefully those eleven teams can make some adjustments!

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I am surprised at the lack of robot sets. That and how much people are scoring with noodles seems silly.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Unless you have a ramp or other mechanism that lines up closely with the tote chute and catches the tote on the way down, it's as fast or faster to load from the floor. That said, I agree that unless both alliances are going to attempt tote stacks or tote sets, it doesn't make sense to put all six on the field. Another word for an un-scorable game piece is obstruction.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

To misquote Sir Paul:

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

There are other ways to make this work......a tote is a pretty darn good ramp! ....and from there stacking is easy.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

+1

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I should say the point value on noodles seems a bit high. That is the silly part.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Too late to change the rules on that now. Time to go practice throwing :P

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I can't say I'm surprised at the average scores of week 1 (at least from the matches I've seen so far). Coop points are definitely going to be a huge ranking booster, just like in 2012.

However, I am surprised at how little the human loading station is being used to get totes. I thought for sure that the human station would be a much more efficient way of obtaining totes. I'm also hoping that teams improve their auto scores in coming matches.

It might be disappointing for some people to see scores in the sub 10 or 20 range, but as always I'm sure they will pick up as the days and weeks go on.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Not at all. Like I said the average will be about 100 for high scoring alliances.

That will rise as weeks go on.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I am surprised at the number of teams not putting up any points.... Very few teams seem to be attempting a three-tote auto stack - and fewer are succeeding.... Even some really strong teams are struggling... Watching Dallas, I saw 148 fail to score any auto points, but did proceed to make two very nice stacks topped with recycling containers.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

148 is having issues with Alfred which moves the Recycle containers out of the way in auto. They haven't been putting that component on the field. Rumor is it is fixed now and will be used after lunch.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Is anyone mad at teams strategy? With the exception of a few good teams we have seen, the rest is bad...

I get that people have specialized robots but I am watching robots move a can towards the step when there are not any totes there, at least push one on! The lack of drive practice is showing severely and the alright robots are terrible, bad robots are better to maybe just not show up.
-Ronnie

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I wouldn't go as far to say that, as it definitely is not GP.
Anyways I will agree that driver practice is lacking and it's quite obvious. However, I think it will be better by week 4, team strategists are probably watching these streams right now to figure out what NOT to do, and scores will probably go up.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Strategy and Driver skill are two different things. Driver skill generally caps the effectiveness of your strategy. In all honesty I just think teams need to slow down a bit, speed isn't the biggest thing to worry about this year in my mind.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I've seen a few box on wheels which have really messed up things for the other robots on the alliance.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Has it been fixed yet?

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I've seen some talk of it being ruled unsafe. Possibly due to the hard to see cable.

Just rumors though.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

It was on the field once and the bins it pulled didn't get completely contained unfortunately.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I'm just happy that there's no game-breaking penalties like last year. It's hard watching teams that try to score points lose to teams trying to score penalties. Week 1 Centerline (detroit) still leaves bad memories.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Perhaps it could be "unsafe" because of the aspect of it being a bunch of metal falling from a height of about six feet? Whatever the issue, I'm sure 148 will have a solution before its next competition.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

148 can only use two of three other deemed illegal unless overturned (unlikely)

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

So they can't use their entire robot system? I feel that is incredibly unfair. I hope that rule is changed by the time of their other regionals.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

The refs have to stick to the rules though. If they start allowing passes then other teams will complain because they made sure to abide by the safety rules when designing their robot.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Its a safety violation the ref did not see the string so unless they can redesign it to high visibility they are playing with two robots.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

That's incredibly disappointing from the refs of frc then. They are penalizing creative game strategy. It's an illogical rule, and it's illogical to follow such a rule.

But alright. 148 will still mostly likely win every competition they go to....without using a third of their robot. I'd like to see other teams try to do that.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Doesn't matter how creative something is if the price of said creativity is physical harm to another human being. If you disagree with the rule then disagree with the rule don't pin it on the people who have to enforce it. The refs are just doing their jobs.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Is it me, or am I noticing that co-opertition STACKS are only getting 20 points rather than the 40 as stated in the Game Manual?

Also:
DON'T THROW THE NOODLES UNTIL CO-OPERTITION IS ACHIEVED!
Idiots.

In addition:
Some teams still don't seem to understand that yellow totes don't count in a stack during tele-op.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Not necessarily

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Teams just aren't playing smart. Week 1 is tough. They are learning the game LIVE. I *hope* tonight teams take a look at how they played today and alter things a bit.

The thing i'm surprised by the most is the amount of stacks being placed without Recycling Containers. At least at Dallas. High level teams are doing it but that's about it.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Tipped on side robots, DOA bots, knocked down stacks , wasted time == Week 1

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I wouldn't call it a waste of time there is a lot you can learn from watching these streams.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Will the whole event be on youtube later?

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I think he meant teams are wasting time in the match. Which is accurate.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

"Waste of time" as in driver indecision not in viewing the events online. I agree that watching online is totally worth it, what I learned is we stack up well can't wait to compete...in a month in two in-a row regionals. Lots of good strategy ideas from today.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Often times the events will be archived on the blue alliance with linked youtube videos.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Showing up on the field is important even if you are DOA. Being on the field is the best time to get a lot of useful information regardless of the state of your robot. Yeah driver indecision is bad but the camera angles I got didn't help me see what was indecision and what was... The alternative to indecision.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Being in week 1 this year for the the first time is so different for us. It definitely is a learning experience for us and others

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I wouldn't say Alfred is 1/3 of their robot, pretty sure it is only used in autonomous. Someone else has said it already but it doesn't matter how creative an idea is if it breaks a rule or isn't safe. I'm sure it can be implemented in a safe manner, it just won't work in it's current state.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

For Alfred - wrap it in white tape, or blinky lights ?!

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Sets are 20, stacks are 40 points. It's possible the refs are clicking the set button instead of the stack button, or it's possible you saw a stack of 3 and a stack of 1 which would count for 20.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I would say it is used for a bit more than autonomous. Though they seem to be doing fine without it, "Alfred" would solve one their current limiting factors on their score, which seems to be how quickly 148 can pick up a trashcan - it lines them all up in a single spot neatly for them to go and get.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Woah this is kind of absurd speculation from a thread where the person who bought up that 148's robot may be unsafe said that it was a rumor himself! (Obviously your comment is in general but it refers to 148 which was being discussed.) Unless you know something we dont I really wouldnt be throwing around accusations especially teams with great reputations like the Robo Wranglers. I highly doubt their robot has hurt anyone and I think the problem of the wire being too thin is trivial, how could that harm someone especially if everyone know about their robot, if that is indeed a problem.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Did he accuse 148 of anything? I don't think so.
I am pretty sure it was JVN that cleared up the refs reasoning. He said it was due to the color/visibility of the string.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Thin wires at waist level (or any level that would contact a person's body, really) could potentially result in serious injury if they are not easily visible. I am comparing it in my mind to the power cables that brought down a helicopter over the highway near Denver a couple of decades ago, resulting in the placement of "fishing bobs" on all wires that could result in such an accident. No one is accusing 148 of wrongdoing; rather, we are arguing that they can take their incredible design and make it safer with some simple modifications.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

At Northern Lights we are calling this the Noodle Treaty. :D

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

From what I've seen in Nashua this would work for a lot of teams however most are really struggling to collect from the feeder station.

Overall a large majority don't fully understand the rules as do most teams who attend Week 1 events (we've been there).

Many teams started the day putting yellow totes on the scoring platform thinking they would score. Very few know you can ask for the yellow totes not to start on the field.

Averages would increase a lot of teams went for co-op more. Teams are slowly picking up on it though.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Huh. That's not a bad idea.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

In the case of Palmetto, not even the referees knew you could start with yellow totes off the field <3

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Do far one team put a yellow tote on the scoring platform at northern lights. But most of all someone started in the auto zone:D :yikes:

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I am shocked personally at how teams who have been established for years are struggling...The scores really are lower than I expected, but then again its only week one...One thing is for certain though, get those CO-OP totes!

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

^I'm not. It's inertia. Teams resistant to the giant fundamental change in this year's game tried to wrestle it in the box of old games. Also, some teams just aren't ready (we never do well at our first event).

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I'm not much surprised by the capabilities of the robots...but I did think there would be more in the "middle of the pack", than there are in the "bottom of the pack".

It's going to be interesting to watch the season progress. I get to attend 5 regionals, starting next week.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I would say that the total scores are surprising to me: I look and if a team can do the coop-stack consistently and a four stack with a bin, that's 64 pts for an average, not including partners. In every regional right now, that's a top 10 seed. I didn't expect that, but I also think it will improve later down the line.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

How surprised r u guys for autonomous? Like how little teams may have a good one or how good certain teams are at auto. Who's your favorite auto that has worked?

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

The chutes right now are occasionally not even maintaining normal operation, and some teams don't understand what should and shouldn't be done, like

Breaking apart the landfill into the gap to prevent co-op is BAD if you can't get the broken up totes converted to the bumps.

Throwing noodles before the co-op conversion is stupid. Throwing noodles before the 60 second mark is almost as stupid.

These two things, along with the general team-specific issues can create a cascading effect of issues that will drive scores down.

Other issues:

Teams may not realize how silly they look when they create a 5 tote stack with no can.

Teams are committing really silly fouls. Throwing noodles after the 20 second mark is stupid, but there is another cascade effect of slightly vague rules and Q&As and blue boxes has caused a share of G6s.

Alliance partners are great at de-scoring totes another partner made.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

There are 0-0 matches every year in week 1, as well as teams committing dumb fouls, nothing to see here. I remember 2012 at championship seeing teams get fouls for throwing the balls too early.

One thing I will say is that stacking a tall capped stack onto your robot from the feeder station with a platform right next to it and dropping it off onto the platform is a great strategy. 4488 at Oregon City did it and was probably the best performing robot I saw all day on webcasts.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

From a team competing at Dallas right now, our robot is certainly was not up to snuff (Friday at least) due to a variety of problems including differences between our home field/the competition practice field/the game field, as well as user errors.

You can practice on your wooden version all day long but competition with the clock actually ticking is a whole different animal. Of course this is the case every year but for teams like us who didn't finish the comp bot until just thursday there are gimmicks that slow performance.

Most years you score maybe 4-10 times over the course of the match, but now many teams only attempt 1-2 high-value stacks that take the whole time. Making even one small error has a massive impact on match score for this reason.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Box on wheel teams often do not employ strategy.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

The worst fouls I've seen being commuted are drivers wearing coaches buttons and coaches standing in the human player zones getting penalties when the human player moves into the zone.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Yeah, the biggest set of penalties ive seen, granted its just from South Florida, are HP penalties.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Here at Howell we got some really high scoring, there were a couple low matches. But we got a considerable number in the 110 range, and the Semis/QF/Finals were intense, which was really surprising for a week 1. Personally I wasn't expecting to break 100 at all this weekend. But we did many times. And by this afternoon, it was normal.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Most (if not all, though I don't remember exactly) playoff alliances at PNW Oregon City today started with them behind the alliance wall, though that's not as surprising for playoffs (where coopertition stacks don't count).

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

148 didn't win Dallas...

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

They would have had High Rollers not been disabled or they topped the last stack on the platform... Those two will be at LV and take that regional most likely. 148 in WC regardless.


Happy for Robonauts 118 though way to go awesome win awesome bot! Also 624 Cryptonite was holding its own when 118 was down..great alliance!

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Very surprised! The only way to move up in the rankings has essentially been coopertition.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I think the main problem keeping scoring down this year is that a lot of teams made stacker robots without container mechanisms in the hopes of having a capper robot putting a container on top, and that a lot of teams made capper robots without stacker mechanisms in the hopes of having a stacker robot to provide totes, and that those two robot classes are not getting along at all. A couple stackers without any cappers just leads to bunch of scattered tote stacks and minimal scoring. A couple cappers leads to no points or action at all (or, if your that one team in Dallas, trying to stack containers on top of each other because your alliance partners can't even push a tote on the step). Even if there is a stacker and a capper in the same match, I saw many examples of overzealous cappers trying to put a container on a stack and pushing the entire stack off the platform in the process.

I am surprised by the number of robots that can successfully do co-op stacks, though, to the point where, by some regionals' end, matches having co-op was the rule, not the exception.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Yes this.

I'm surprised at the predominant specialization ...stacker, capper or stepper.

There were many times today watching I just shook my head at time wasted. Some good bots basically neutered waiting for another bot to finish sometimes waiting over a minute. That is what we purposely designed our robot to do it all perhaps not as a high of a level as a true stacker only against the HP station BUT can change roles on a dime as needed.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

At first glance walking around the pits, we were pretty pleased with what we saw. Only maybe 1 or 2 teams that were the common box on wheels, the rest seemed to have mechanisms....this opinion greatly changed when we seen teams on the field. The box on wheels has evolved to a tall rectangle on wheels. The teams that have had drive practice were very easy to pick out.

Teams with active intakes that worked had a great advantage! Being super slow and relying on lining up is a very bad way to get good at this game. It also seemed that a good alliance was better off doing 2 stacks of 3 totes and a can then 1 stack of 5 with a can and then tip it over after wasting the entire match.

Now strictly scoring, I was surprised with how little every team beside the good ones were able to contribute. I thought there would be the good and mediocre but it seemed like you were either getting a few stacks or none(beside the bad matches which I will attribute to little drive practice). I expected more teams to do a 3 tote auto just simply on the fact that the points from that would get you ranked fairly high just from that. (Obviously this is true for early events, not so true for later events)

This is just a side note, I noticed the refs being very relaxed about transport configuration. I seen numerous teams come to the field WAY outside of transport configuration and nothing said...that really disappointed me.
-Ronnie

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

This year, there's not much they can do. I think I'll make a list, and make sure the driver team has a copy for any of these:

• Score single gray totes (2 points each) by pushing them on a platform. Preferably, they'll use an HP station, as the landfill will make a bigger mess.
• process litter, provided they have very low ground clearance, or can make a plow and pass inspection with it (1 point each)
• move fallen and surplus items out of the way (0 points, but helpful)
• get in the way (0 points, and not helpful)
• make a mess (e.g. break up the landfill - 0 points, not helpful)
• knock over stuff and commit fouls (negative points)

[quote=Left To Beaver;1451356]I am surprised by the number of robots that can successfully do co-op stacks, though, to the point where, by some regionals' end, matches having co-op was the rule, not the exception./QUOTE]
Most outside-chassis lifts can place totes on the step just as they score on the scoring platforms; it's only 4" higher. Coopertition is a large chunk of relatively easy points that can't be de-scored once scored; it was high on our list of things to be able to do.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

It is very difficult to tell a team's transport configuration in queue. If someone is way out, probably we'd find out.

But there isn't a foul we can call. All we can do is tell the team to get it into transport configuration. And then they'll need to get out onto the field--and get back out of transport configuration.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

My team has a 3 tote auto, but it requires 2 of the 3 containers to be moved out of the way: we are finding it difficult to get 1 or 2 alliance partners to do this, so we never ended up using it.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Someone requested I keep an eye on teams in the que to see if they're in the transport configuration. As if I don't have enough to do getting teams to the field on time. Inspectors (especially on Friday) would be better suited for the job.

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Policing transport configuration was chief frustration for me all weekend. Basically lead to tattle tails, whiners, and obstanant mentors with prepared rants. I am glad my least favorite part of volunteering got extended to before and after every match.....

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

I would rather them change things in the update, I think as long as its safe and is checked in transport config at inspection, it would make things a lot easier. Just would like to see the same call throughout the world.
-Ronnie

Re: Is anyone surprised by the scoring in week #1?
 

Unfortunately, not all venues have the same setup; some have a larger turning area than others. The only way to be the same is to be the most restrictive.