Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

To be honest I think the response has been pretty mild. No calls for a witchhunt or anything. I'm sure the teams affected by this would still like there to be some sort of investigation or at the very least acknowledgement that there has in fact been a problem.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

I agree with this. To be fair, it will take some time for FIRST to find out/sort this out. I would think 3802 deserves a spot at champs. 148 and 987 are already going from what I've heard.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

It's extremely disappointing to see this no notification starting config disablement resurfacing year after year. It was perhaps my biggest problem with our first event last year, where we were disabled for having two pieces that contact the ball slightly outside our frame perimeter in the middle of quals.

This had the rather unfortunate result of losing us the match. Since then, I make it a point to always ASK refs if our robot is in valid starting configuration if there's anything that is quite close to the limit. That way we at least have some recourse if a disablement occurs for starting config.

Don't even get me started on the "question box"...

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

Was 2613 notified they were going to be disabled and were they given the opportunity to fix it? Had a robot been disabled earlier for non-compliance or were they given the opportunity to fix it? It would be nice to know for future events whether this was a one time call in the finals or whether the refs had made calls like this before. I can't speak for the refs but if they have made a call like this before then maybe they felt they had set a precedent and had to stick to the way they had called this in the past to stay consistent.

I don't have an opinion on the calls themselves but before we sharpen our pitchforks and go after the referees we should remember the call was consistent on both sides of the field.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

Thanks Cory - and I agree completely. Pre-Match rule G7 should have been 'properly' applied here. From the official 2015 FIRST Game Manual:

G7 Violation "If fix is a quick remedy, the MATCH won't start until all requirements are met. If it is not a quick remedy the OFFENDING ROBOT will be disabled and at the discretion of the Head REFEREE must be re-inspected".

All reports from the team suggest that the extended component (maybe a fraction of an inch over) could be mechanically retracted by the push of a button. Had the judges/referees properly applied Rule G7, they should have approached the team in order to gauge how quick the fix would be and then rule appropriately. 987 could have lowered the extension in a second and then a fair and spirited match could resume. If the other alliance failed the height test during the match, and 'if' they were allowed to fix it, I don't think either side would have been upset, after all the rule would have been properly applied.

On top of that, to summarily disable the robot without notice was unwarranted and sealed the fate for the Blue Alliance in spite of Team 148’s valiant efforts.

This same sort of thing happened to 987 last year in San Diego with the overboard 50 point foul rule in the last game-deciding match just like here in Dallas. I think dialog in forums like this might have helped sway the rule makers to back away from such things like the 50 point foul which always changed the outcome. In this case the rules were appropriate, but the ones applying the rule were at fault.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

CORRECTION TO A PREVIOUS STATEMENT

The statement "(maybe a fraction of an inch over)" is my opinion after reviewing the video about 50 times. I'll assume for the moment that with three judges starring at a tape measure at an angle (since none of them had eyeballs at 6'6" from the ground) for 10 seconds were trying to resolve a fraction of an inch in the height of the robot. If the robot was 6" over the limit we would all just throw up our hands and call it over the limit in about a second.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

Dallas didn't really end the way I think anybody wanted it to.

From our perspective in the stands sitting directly behind the FTA and head ref it looked like they were ready to start the match with all 6 robots until the blue alliance had the female ref on their side of the field get the head ref to stop the countdown. We saw one of the coaches jumping up and down; and while that was happening a 118 driver ran up to another ref. So, we kind of thought it sucked for what happened but it looked like the blue alliance were the ones who had the match get stopped.

I will say this was just a bizarre regional with the weather, delayed start, etc.. We didn't get our robot packed and leave until 10:45 and during the playoff matches it looked like there were a lot of people short on patience as the night wore on.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

Is there any video of the matches?

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

Its near the end of the live stream of the event

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

It's very disappointing to hear how this event ended.

I wish certain field volunteers at FIRST events would keep their heads a bit better when events are running late. They feel pressure to get the event done so the teams and volunteers can go home after a grueling event, but saving a couple of minutes isn't worth it when it creates a highly negative experience for a group of students.

Elimination round matches where the robots aren't all working are a big letdown. Especially in the finals matches. It is worth a few minutes of conversation between referees / FTA's / lead robot inspector / drive team to sort some of this stuff out if it has the potential to avoid a screwed up final match that leaves nobody feeling satisfied in the end.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

This sort of thing does tend to happen often, and there is much hubbub for a while, then it quietly dies out. FIRST almost never addresses it, and there are no visible repercussions.

What should happen? Lets suppose this is the only event that one of the teams attended. This team spent almost $6,000 just for the privilege of playing, plus thousands on tools, equipment and parts to build the robot, plus travel costs. That could easily be $10,000-$15,000. If I was on that team, (assuming the allegations made here are true) I would want that money returned to me. If an error was made by an official representative of FIRST (like a referee) then the onus falls on FIRST, not that referee, so FIRST should pony up the bucks. Remember, we are customers, even though that point is rarely made. We pay money in exchange for a product. If that product is defective, we should get that money back.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

If FIRST truly wants to inspire people to pursue STEM careers, and doesn't want to risk "uninspiring" some, they should allow the entire 148 alliance entrance to worlds.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

I have nothing more to say about that call or enough time to fix, but I do wish to say that the 987 is one of my favorite robots of all time... that and team 67's robot in 2012... good job guys!

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

They're a Legacy team. They're already in.

Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas
 

78" is the limit so in that regard they were ruled by more than one judge too high that violates the rules. If people were challenging that is WAS under 78" then OK but it was OVER 78"

As for should they be allowed to rectify it (delaying game) that's much more of a grey area rule and seeing how the event was running late they made a call not to allow the extended time. ...which is one of two options... extend or not extend..a judgement call.

IMO a robot should never exceed 78" as part of its design in any conditions or placement and should not need to have the benefit of alteration on the field to be under 78". That rule has been there since DAY 1 same as 120 lbs (those are absolute limits)...now if High Rollers got smashed and bent out of shape the prior match then I would agree allow the time but that did not happen and they were out of their usual auto score everything spot....adding scrutiny from new eyes at the center of the field as it took forever to get that match started.

I have no issue with the ruling and High Rollers will still get into Worlds somehow they are an amazing robot/team and always tough.

In the end 78" is 78" and over that can trigger a disable...live with it. Robonaghts/Kryptonight alliance also deserved the Dallas Win they were amazing too and also had disabled bots too to get there....so lets not take away from the Winning Alliance...that let I remind you used only their 2nd robot in a quarter final match and it scored 95 solo.