Tether rules?
 

What are the rules for tethering to another robot exactly, does the second part have to have power supplied to it?

Re: Tether rules?
 

Nope. As long as it's attached (regardless of power supply), it's considered part of the robot, but all other rules still apply. It has to fit within the transport config, be under 120 pounds, and it might require a re-inspection, depending on the scenario.

Re: Tether rules?
 

So does that mean 1114's ramp at the human player station would need to be tethered to be legal?

Re: Tether rules?
 

Yes it would fall under G25

Re: Tether rules?
 

It still needs to be powered by the robot battery, unless the power source is internal to a COTS device.

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Picture? We've been working on something similar for next week. I want to see how similar they are.

Re: Tether rules?
 

It looks like a clear piece of polycarbonate bent into a ramp at a near identical pitch of the chute. I say looks like because the 10 pixels available on the GTRC stream left up a lot to the imagination before the stream broke entirely.

Re: Tether rules?
 

At Northern Lights one of the robots tethered to a ramp with 30 feet of string.

Re: Tether rules?
 

picture of a ramp? Think inclined plane to guide the totes down gently (so they land flat).

Yes, it needs to be attached to be considered "one robot" and one robot can only have one battery and one roboRIO. A COTS computer on the ramp can not power anything other than itself - do not much use.

BTW: if it is a dumb ramp, the tether could be a string or even dental floss. Something the ref wont trip on while walking the field.

Re: Tether rules?
 

We added a tether ramp to our robot at our first district. Unfortunately we didn't get it working till the end of our competition but we look forward to using at our next district.

The link to the picture is https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...af88b13ccee e

Re: Tether rules?
 

And you probably should have been given a "non-inspected robot" penalty, if that picture is from qualifications or eliminations. Sound harsh? Yep, it does. I know, I was on a ref crew that told a team to remove their tethered ramp because it hadn't been inspected, and they admitted that fact to us when we asked. (They didn't get the penalty because they were able to get back to "inspected" without incurring a "delay of match"-by untying the string.) Trust me, I'm saying this so you don't hear it at your next event.

The only reason that I know that that particular ramp is yours is because you said it is. The refs on the field might see the tether. But if multiple robots on the field have those things... Please reference the Blue Box in R02, as modified by the 2/17 Team Update, and fix the lack of numbers on the ramp when you get the chance. Your referees and inspectors will thank you.

Re: Tether rules?
 

We were inspected, the inspectors didn't catch that. Thank you for the heads up and we will be sure to add it for our next competition!

Re: Tether rules?
 

There is no requirement that any specific part of a robot (in this case a tethered component) be powered at all. A COTS part with an internal battery could be used, but that battery is not allowed to power any actuators, just do sensing and processing. If you did need it to have a bit of power but didn't want to run wires, it could be powered by a spring or by harnessing the energy of totes falling on it. I can certainly imagine a stacker (similar to Robin) that built a stack without electricity, working entirely on mechanical triggering and powered by energy stored in a spring. If the spring only held enough energy to make one stack, you could include a windup powered by a CIM on your version of Batman.

Re: Tether rules?
 

This game has officially jumped the shark.

Re: Tether rules?
 

Hey now, this is not a 2016 game discussion thread.

Re: Tether rules?
 

Yeah, I know what you mean. The concept of hunks of plastic that passively direct totes tied to a robot being considered "tethered subcomponents" seems to violate much of the spirit of the game.

Re: Tether rules?
 

For the record, "tethering" isn't an official term or a necessarily intended part of the rules. It is an extrapolation of the "no length/width" requirements rules about gameplay that haven't existed in years.

Re: Tether rules?
 

I think you're being too strict about this. In years past the rules prohibited you from detatching parts of your robot into the field. There were usually rules about how far outside your frame perimeter you could go as well. This year however, they removed those restrictions. They want to see teams be creative with what they can compact into that transport config. If a team detatches part of their robot onto the field, it still has to be attatched to their robot in some way. That limits their maneuverability to the limits of their teather. It also adds risk of their alliance partners running over the teather.

When it comes to leaving hunks of plastic on the field, I think that's entirely the spirit of the game.

Re: Tether rules?
 

The game design committes designed a very difficult and complex game and relaxed robot design rules so teams can make risky and complex robots. I think this counts. It's no different than having a backfeeding robot.

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Just wait until litter deflectors show up, attached by 'tethers'.

Re: Tether rules?
 

Unfortunately, they'd still be limited to 78" tall. Most of the well-thrown litter seems to hang up around 8 or 9 feet until it suddenly plummets.

See this thread

Re: Tether rules?
 

I have to disagree. Jumping the shark implies something flashy for the crowds that has nothing really to do with the general vision. RR is frankly going to be anything but flashy, except at the finals and championships.

As to following the FRC vision, I found this game to be a great design and strategy challenge, with some real engineering needed to pull off any speed in any of the tasks. Unlike last year, when the functional tasks consisted of:

• Drive
• Pick up ball
• throw ball to about 7' off the floor
• [optional]catch ball

This game has three utterly different game pieces, nonlinear scoring, multiple autonomous challenges, and a sizeable and achievable coopertition bonus. The landfill and step layout is genius. The design and strategy combinations on this game are far broader than average, certainly the best in my four years of FIRST, at a cost of spectator accessibility. The only thing I would have changed was to make the ratio between processed and unprocessed litter 1:1 or 2:1 instead of 1:4, which would have led to more noodle manipulators and probably not have inspired the noodle agreement.

Re: Tether rules?
 

Agreed. We set our strategic goals on on day 1 and found them so challenging (from an engineering standpoint) that we did not truly accomplish our top priorities until we were tweaking our practice bot more than a week after Bag and Tag. At that point, we are generally tweaking secondary or tertiary goals on our team. The challenge was *hard.* At the same time, upon accomplishing our robot goals, the reward was very satisfying. I just hope it all works just as well tomorrow. Sure, from an uninvolved spectator's perspective, the game is lacking. I know that my team and I are very excited for our first match and we'll be cheering as loud as ever.

Re: Tether rules?
 

I've said it before (maybe not here): Recycle Rush is a fantastic engineering challenge and a terrible game. It's up to you whether this is a net positive or not.

Re: Tether rules?
 

In other words it inspires minds already engaged in the field and those we are trying to reach are left scratching their heads trying to figure out why robots have strings attached to ramps.

Are prospective students watching the game and thinking they want to try it out next year?

So in summary, does that unpowered ramp have to be tethered?

Re: Tether rules?
 

Yes. G25 says, in essence: Thou Shalt NOT Intentionally Detach Parts From Thy Robot.

This rule has existed since 1998, and is also known as "Beatty Rule #1". Back in 1997, you didn't have to have a tether if you left something behind, so 71 (or whatever their number was back then) would make it impossible to score in a certain area once they'd scored by leaving a structure behind. (Beatty Rule #2? No metal on carpet, but that's another story.)

Re: Tether rules?
 

Which brings up the question is an unpowered "tethered" component something that's left on the field. Or, does string qualify as a tether since it's impossible to command the subcomponent through it.

G25 ROBOTS may not intentionally detach or leave parts on the FIELD.
VIOLATION: RED CARD

Re: Tether rules?
 

String qualifies. It attaches the part to the robot. Whether or not the part is powered is up to the team, and requires more engineering if it is.

Re: Tether rules?
 

When this game starts to move from just the robot to all these un-motorized appendages, I'm starting to think that a water game is a good idea...
I think that tethers to motorized appendages like 148's HP loader is cool, but stationary ramps? Just doesn't feel like robotics. I think a drop down ramp to the human player station attached to your robot would be much cooler.
And just like any other part like a motorized HP loader, I would say that you have to tether it.

Re: Tether rules?
 

You just had to start that water game thing, didn't you :)

Re: Tether rules?
 

Re: Tether rules?
 

How do you call that non-motorized? It's storing potential energy in a weight.

Re: Tether rules?
 

No argument!
Actually, it's rather like golf. Just about everyone who enjoys watching golf is (or at least was) an avid player.
I think I've already answered that.

At first, I thought this game was too simple - the main game pieces have handles, for crying out loud! Then, as we started to break down the scoring, availability of game pieces, and dynamics, this has actually become my favorite game, and second favorite challenge (behind Ultimate Ascent) in my four years being in or near FRC.

In order to continue to inspire the next generation of technology and business leaders, the FIRST GDC must continually invent new games, and try not to reuse concepts in the same 4-year period. By the nature of this, each game will have strengths and weaknesses relative to the others.

I believe that FIRST has also done an intentional service to these students by including a "placement" game every few years. By my count, this is the 8th game with a primary stacking/hanging activity, with the first being Toroid Terror in 1997. The GDC does this even though placement games like Recycle Rush and golf have less spectator appeal. Why would they do this? How many commercial robots throw exercise balls or frisbees or mini basketballs through goals? And how many commercial robots pick up, align, and precisely place rectangles and cylinders and other well-defined but oddball shapes? I expect that we'll see flying game pieces and defense the next two or three years and a placement game again in three or four years.

Re: Tether rules?
 

I agree that "placement" type games are important. However they can be done with defense (see Logomotion), and without the ability to win at the highest levels within a second (see Triple Play- NOT Logomotion).

They can also stick to a "competition" format, and not toss aside the W-L-T system that makes FRC what it is (not a science fair).

My problem with this game isn't that the type of scoring is boring, its that they removed so much of what makes FRC, FRC.
----

Anyway this discussion is about tethers and tethered robots. As I said earlier, tethers are an extrapolation of the lack of size restrictions, and thus there are no rules specifically about tethers except that the second piece of your robot ALSO NEEDS TO HAVE NUMBERS ON ALL SIDES OF IT.

Re: Tether rules?
 

I didn't say it didn't move, just that it didn't have motors. Or would you consider a cuckoo clock motorized?

Re: Tether rules?
 

It's not onerous or unreasonable, but how do you get this from:
?

Re: Tether rules?
 

You didn't update your Manual. 2/17 Update added a clarification to the blue box that said, in essence, that if a tether had to be followed to get to the numbers, the robot was in violation.

Re: Tether rules?
 

From the sentence in the blue box you didn't quote:

"If an observer has to follow a tether to identify the ROBOT’s team number, that is considered not clearly visible and does not meet the requirements of R2."

Re: Tether rules?
 

I need to remember to delete the old ones!

Re: Tether rules?
 

After being at a regional, I have to modify my remarks. The game was fully accessible to spectators. Sure, you had to explain the oddball scoring, but has there been an FRC game (at least recently) where you didn't? It was obvious that people were watching matches on the edge of their seat, even those whose team was not on the field. Every tall stack formed, and every item dropped, drew cheers or gasps from all over the audience. I believe also that this game has inspired more complete overhauls and total redesigns after stop build day than any other. Hearing the audience reaction to the "mosquito netting" noodle defense in Bayou Semi #2 was priceless, even though it proved of little value.

Re: Tether rules?
 

What is so hard about putting your REQUIRED license plates on the ramps or other robot pcs.? (Look at it this way....You actually "get to display your specific team # at least 4 more times,"....Nice and boldly!)

Hmmm, I think FIRST needs to develop the FIRST DMR (FIRST Department of Motorized Robots), at championships this year. Then add a nice license plate fee if other attached (tethered, leashed, extended), robot pcs. are missing ANY of their required Team # Plates. Make that fee high, give the $$$'s raised to some deserving charity.

The game is very exciting, and has many elements beyond the expected "Wherehouse Stacking" that many thought it would only be.