Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I'd love to hear what you guys think

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Pending 1678, but going off of their teaser...

148, 1114, 1678

148 stacks from the feeder, 1114 stacks from the landfill, 1678 grabs all the recycle bins off of the step.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

This. Or 148 + 1114 + whoever is the fastest 4 RC grabber. Just saw 1114 make 3 capped landfill stacks solo. 148 can usually manage 3-4 capped stacks from feeder. If that alliance just goes 3 for 4 on the center RCs, the other side is doomed. I think the other side is doomed even if that alliance splits the center RCs. (literally or figuratively)

Mind you, there's probably several other bots out there that will pair as well with 148. So, basically, 148 in your division at Champs is a strong argument for designing the fastest, strongest 4RC bot you can, regardless of whether or not it does anything else.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

My suspicion is that if an RC-grabber can't get their RCs off the step in 0.25-1.0s, then there's almost no point in even trying at the 'Einstein' level of play.

Accordingly, the best alliance will need to get as many RCs as they can in the first second... 1678 is likely to come up with a super-fast approach (perhaps only 2 RCs instead of all 4, though?), but until they do, I think you need to slot a different team in for RC-grabbing.

If the fastest RC grabbers can only get 2 RCs each, then you'll really want 2 on an alliance... obviously they'd need to be highly capable at stacking and/or RC-placing during teleop too though... otherwise you'll only end up with 2-4 stacks and it will have hardly mattered that you limited the opposition to 3 RCs.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

148, 987, "4 bin grabber"

The 28pt auto from 987/148 is still good, 148 will clear the alliance station along with the 3rd bot and 987 can clear the landfill as fast as anyone.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Except 1114... they seem to be consistently doing 2-3 6-stacks with RCs from the landfill.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

As of right now? 1114-148-118
However this can change over the coming weeks as teams get faster and faster step-can-grabbers. #minibotRace

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Those combinations are... frightening. Thinking about the, I am thankful that there are 8 divisions at champs instead of 4 - minimizing the chances that we have to actually face such... nastiness. :)

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I'm really starting to think you need a pair of 2-bin grabbers, instead of 1 4-bin grabber. It's just an issue of speed - you can't get them fast enough (<1 sec) with a 4 grabber.

I really don't like this game mechanic.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I actually think that this adds a great dynamic to the game. Do you want to guarantee yourself 2? Would you rather try to get all 4? It's a very interesting strategy question.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Is that not what 987 did?

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Alberta Tech Alliance (4334) could be really valuable for a landfill stacker because of their ability to flip upside down totes. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see them be a strong 3rd pick for an extremely strong alliance. Quality robot, they have indeed.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

It's kind of early to call a winner of the landfill stackers, but from the video of seen of 987's elims and 1114's early qual matches, 1114's consistently doing 2.5-3.2 6-stacks with RC from the landfill, while 987 was consistently doing 1.75-2.2 6-stacks with RC from the landfill. I think 987 will improve more though, as it seems like they spent a fair bit of time fussing around with RCs... either taking a while to get them or being a team-player by moving one over for 148 to use.

987's auto is more capable and reliable so far... but the only team that can stack game pieces as fast as 1114 is 148... and 148 only does so by multi-tasking.

My 'criticism' of these top teams isn't meant to be critical-sounding... any of them so thoroughly out-pace my team it's really not even funny. We could consistently do 3 stacks of 4 totes (no RC!) in elims at Week 1... very good, but no where even close to those levels.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Optimus Prime, Wall-E, C3-PO hands down

going to call it at 148, 1114, and Ill get back to you when I review all the 4 bin step auto footage.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Well if/when the cans get ripped apart on Einstein to contribute a whopping zero points, the alliances can just offload their third robot, the RC grabber, and just play with two on the biggest stage in FIRST.

gg GDC

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I'm thinking 1114 + 148 + ludicrous speed 2 RC bot
An auto, 148 can do a 3 tote auto (assuming they can get that working), and 1114 can try for a third RC, because I know they have some grabbing mechanism.
I saw it in the GTR practice matches, but I don't know how fast it is.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

From what I've seen, 3130/525/4215 averaged over 100 together. I feel like they should be taken into account.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

1114 is averaging more than 100 on their own.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Welp. My bad. That's a lot more OP than what I had lined up.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

We still haven't seen the best of 148, so they're my #1 pick.

As of now, 1114 is the top landfill, so they're my #2 pick. knowing them, they will be able to grab 2 bins by champs, and it will likely be fast.

The bin grabber I want necessarily must be the fastest. the best 4 bin grabber i've seen so far was 2848, but even if they were as fast as 3310 or 118, both of the latter teams were grabbing the side 2 bins and that torque on 2848's bot would have been... interesting.

as long as a 2 bin grabber is as fast as a 4 bin and can grab the 2 on the side, the #1 alliance will be fine.

I think champs winner will have 2 bots grabbing 2 totes each.

In STL I think there will be a lot of unveiling of withholding allowance ramps and bin grabbers.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Even more than speed is power and ballast/traction - if designed and executed anywhere nearly as well, two robots grabbing 2 each will overpower one grabbing 4.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

3476 is able to put 18 (3 stacks on the scoring platform) in a match.
They chose to do 5 each instead to complement their partner. With a third partner who focuses solely on the step to grab RC's and place them on stacks, that is a viable option for 2 of the 3 members.

I think the key question is what combination of teams can put up 200 points in a match?

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

1114 just put up 3 6 stacks with RCs and Litter on their own and had 25 seconds remaining. With a way to get at least 3 RCs from the middle in Auto 1114 and 148 can put up 272 together, not counting whatever their teammate can do outside of Auto.
1114: 20 (Auto)+3x42 Teleop
148: 3x42 Teleop

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

A way to get to 200 points is a 3 tote stack auto + 5 capped (not capped and stuffed) stacks of 6. Pairing a robot that is a really really good can manipulator with two robots that can process and deliver 5 stacks of six out of the hp zones would be one way to do it (provided one can also run at least a 20 point auto). 2848, 148, and 987 or 4039 could run this routine

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

200 point matches will probably be fairly common at champs. The 987/148 alliance scored 215 in Dallas F2 with 987 about 3 seconds away from placing another RC on a six stack.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2j49zpQjC_8

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Fairly common or higher with good alliances in eliminations, but I'd disagree "fairly common" in qualification matches.
In addition, 2 alliances that score well over 200+ in a match pitted against each other will have some negative effect going for the same step bins.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Yes, exactly the type of scenario I was thinking about when I posted.
With eliminations going serpentine, this has huge ramifications in getting teams that are effective at RC bins in auto for teams lower in the alliance selection seedings.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I am not as sold on the necessity of can specialists. 1114 and 118 could easily do 5 capped stacks of 6 plus a 20 point auto without any help from a third partner. 1114 can do 3 stacks capped every time, and 118 could consistently grab 2 RCs from the center and create 6 stacks with them.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

James,
you are absolutely right.
But I think the point here is that you mention not needing a third partner for teams like 1114, 118, 987, 148, etc....
For teams that cant work that "magic", the third partner is essential and helps to equate what effectively took 2 of them to do. Of the teams we saw the past 2 weeks, what happens if an effective 4 bin step grabber is on the opposite alliance against them?

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

.25 seconds? what is this? the james may alliance?

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

The fastest RC grab...

In the World.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

1983, 1318 and 118... 1318 can pickup two recycling bins in auto mode, 1983 can stack fast as hell, and 118 mechanism to put the recycling container on top of the stack is awesome.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Trying to think of an eloquent way to say this but it might be hard. Lot of stuff on the field, not a lot of space for robots. You can cordon off sections of the field for each alliance member depending on their abilities. You can go a step further and create a more efficient process if you limit what your "jobs" are because you are not spending time traveling between jobs. A robot that just has to take care of cans would not have to take time to make a stack and robots that can make stacks do not need to go fetch cans and have them on top of their stacks while traveling. While 1114 has a pretty elegant solution for can instability, even their's isn't perfect. Having 3 robots do the same thing this year would give your alliance total diminishing returns as their overall individual scoring potential increases.

While each game deserves their own unique perspectives, look at different scoring objects in the 2015 game instead manifesting themselves as different tasks of the 2013 game. Having three great full court shooters doesn't make a lot of sense. Having three robots that specialize in a 7 disc auto is also a waste of time. Having three robots that 30 point climb is probably going to be difficult to pull off.

Having 3 1114's won't score as many points as an alliance that can actually complement itself. It isn't like 2014 where robots had specific tactical differences, but in 2015 robots are designed around specific strategic differences, which are a lot more concrete.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Im going to wait to see the Cheesy Poofs and D'Penguineers to play before I hop on the IFI team bandwagon.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I'm gonna call it now, 1114 148 217.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

You'll have to wait til champs, because 1717 usually starts out kinda rough. They get much better by champs.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

So far the three best robots I've seen this year are 1114, 987 and 148.
The field aint big enough for the three of them.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

If you are consistently out stacking other alliances (especially beyond the margin for litter points), you only need the fastest 2-can grabber to "win." The only exception is if two (or more) other alliances have 4-can grabbers that can beat enough other opposing alliances to raise their average above yours in the SFs.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I think you mean 4, 5 or 6 of them.:) *2 for 1114 and 3 for 148.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

You would clearly have 1114 as your landfill grabber, and 148 as your human player loader. 148 can use the 3 bins on their side to cap their 3 stacks. You have some undecided 4 bin grabber that grabs the bins. 1114 can use 3 to top their stacks, and 148 can use the other as they tend to make 4 stacks.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Naturally you'd pick yourself ;) not a bad choice though, tbh

If you were to do that, though, you'd want 1114, not 148. 148 works from the same spot you do, 1114 works out of the landfill. also, if you're going for IRS solely for their RC grabber, 3310 is faster, and appears to have a more consistent mechanism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmyp...ature=youtu.be. or 118, which is also faster, and currently a better robot than 1318. there's a lot of good RC grabbers.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Not sure who that is, sorry. But I think that a 0.25 second 2-can grab by two robots will be very important on einstein. 4-can autons may not be able to compete in speed.
1114-148-2-can auton. 1114 will hopefully add a 2-can auton, as it's quite simple and easy to add. Stay tuned for Utah next week. :)
If 1114 doesn't do that, 118-148-2can would be my pick.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I think that's pretty accurate, but I'd say 4818 to do stacks from the feeder and maybe 93 for bins. Their robots are RIDICULOUSLY amazing together. 4818 made I think 3 stacks of 5 and a stack of 2 or 3 in a match at the Lake Superior Regional and then New Apple Corps (93) topped them with recycling bins (some with litter) in the finals. CRAZY
Props to 2526 for picking them as their alliance partners even after 4818 took 62nd in qualifiers. Smart job there.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

James May, as noted by wikipedia aka "captain slow", I think you know what I'm hinting at ;)

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I would have to disagree with this claim. According to the Blue Alliance's charts, the average score for Championship elims approximately doubles the average elims scores during week 1 (The largest ratio between the two was about 2.5 in 2010).

This year, week 1 elims average scores were about 80. By the above estimate, the average elims scores at champs would be about 160. There is little doubt that we will see 200s on the scoreboards during elims at champs, but I would be hesitant to say that 200 will be fairly common.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

1114 (Fastest LF processor so far) + Fastest RC wall grabber (With HP load ability ideally) + Fastest RC+N topper

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

1114, 148 and 610. 610 gets all the bins in autonomous, and the others make max stacks. That would be beyond OP.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

They have a can grabber.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

This raises another interesting point. How will the increased quantity of elimination alliances/participants impact the average scores at Champs? Common sense says it would further dilute the talent, however this game is quite different.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I can see it. However, so far it looks pretty slow and has to be positioned manually due to their 3-tote auton.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

This seems to be an accepted fact from many users, but I'm not convinced. A single team which can grab 4 containers as quickly as any other grabber would be hugely desirable, so teams are going to make robots that can get 4 very quickly.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I agree, a 4-can is better than a 2-can. The main issue is that you have to reach from the center of the field to the edges of it. This leaves you three options:
-Swing your arm out in autonomous
-Swing your arm out during the 60s setup time and retract them later
-Swing your arm out during setup an dnever retract it.
The first option is inherently slow; you would have to devote way too many resources to ensure that the 4-can grab is faster than the opponent's 2-can.
The second option is better, but the sheer weight of the assembly, plus the setup time could make it too slow or unreliable.
The last option can be light, as it does not need any type of retraction mechanism. However, it guarentees that you can't effectively play the game anymore.
I think it's possible, but it is much harder than just dropping two 72" rods down to grab if you want to match speed. And you would have to be faster than any two-can.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

That post has an awful lot of assumptions in it. Assumptions that may not end up being true.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

254, 148, 1114

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Just what I've seen. If you have a good idea for a super-fast four can auton I would love to know.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

What if I told you they didn't run their 3 tote auto every match?

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I wonder though, with Champs going from 4 to 8 divisions, will a "power house" alliance emerge if the best teams are spread out. I think this will make it so there will not be an obvious Einstein winner.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Inertia is a thing, 2 is always faster, and 1 is even faster than 2, but there's a very specific reason 1 isn't advantageous, I will leave this as an exercise to the reader.

I'm also very surprises no one has pointed out the most obvious alliance, 2056, 2056, and 2056 is clearly the most OP.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

In my opinion, an alliance of 1114, 148 and 118 would create the most terrifyingly high scores possible. however, I feel like 148 would actually get in the way of the other two robots, being part of team tether. because of this, I would instead pick team 4488, whose ability to make 2 stacks of 6 with noodle in a container is comparable to these other teams, while taking up far less field space than some of the other great robots

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

That's giving up an entire stack of totes and can, at least, compared to 148's best performances. If 148 sticks to the left edge of the field, the center and right sides of the field can be open for 1114 and 118 to play in. 148 doesn't need to move too much other than to their loader, can holder, and the goal, so I feel they can keep their tether manageable.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

There's also the issue of a 4-tote tying up with a 2-tote in a "pull-off". As it stands now, I haven't seen a 4-tote faster than the fastest 2-tote. The advantage in a tie would most likely go to the 2-tote for obvious reasons.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

By "tote," do you mean "Recycling Container?"

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

Didn't you know? The step totes are way more valuable than the RCs, the RCs give you negative points actually :ahh:

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I've actually seen alliances grab 4 RCs from the step, and then only use 1 of their 7 total. The remaining ones clutter up the field, causing robots to spend more time maneuvering and less time scoring. In that context, I would say that getting the RCs from the step gave that alliance negative points.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

They have a pretty beastly tether as well, IIRC. If they are in a situation where it could be advantageous to lob a chunk of it off, they could. They can theoretically operate in the boundary of #1 wall side to about 7 feet over, up to the far third of the auto zone. They could just become a very easy to run 126 point teleop factory. That leaves the landfill to 118 and the HP ramp to 1114. I also assume 148 and 1114 could figure out how to tether the 1114 ramp or any other passive ramp to 148 and make weight and TC for the sake of going OP.

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

1114 - 1114 - 1114 would make the best alliance in my opinion

Re: Which 3 robots would form the most overpowered alliance?
 

I think any team that can put at least 2 super-stacks with container and noodle from the human player station with time left over, and with few issues. Would be a perfect fit with 1114. Honestly, the third pick for any high seeded alliance is probably not going to be a container grabber. The demand for them is to high. My guess is that at world champs we are going to see a lot of underweight teams being 3rd picks and then being modified by adding a fast container grabber. 118, and 1730 did it at their regionals. This is the year that not just the power-house teams have a good chance at making Einstein, but also the lesser known teams that can do what they can efficiently. Einstein is going to be much different this year than most years before.