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-   -   Feeding Noodles Over the Wall (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135576)

Dominick Ferone 08-03-2015 15:04
Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Are you allowed to feed noodles into the recycling container from over the wall?

blazingbronco18 08-03-2015 15:05
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone (Post 1455080)
Are you allowed to feed noodles into the recycling container from over the wall?
Yes, it is perfectly legal. You will see team 148 and 254 doing this a lot during their matches

who716 08-03-2015 15:05
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
yes up until the last 20 seconds

during the final 20 seconds it has to be through the noodle feeder

Dominick Ferone 08-03-2015 15:14
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
That's what i thought but just wanted to be sure of.

Jaywalker1711 08-03-2015 16:36
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
This was part of my alliance's strategy in eliminations yesterday. It went quite well! I think that it was a lot faster than the noodle chute -Team Human Player

Brandon Zalinsky 08-03-2015 18:33
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
As stated above, it is legal, as long as your hand does not enter the field, which has happened a few times this year.

GeeTwo 08-03-2015 22:18
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Another advantage is that it can be done while another robot is working the tote chute.

Richard Wallace 08-03-2015 22:24
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1455263)
Another advantage is that it can be done while another robot is working the tote chute.
This can be a pretty big advantage. Our playoff alliance used it effectively at Kentwood. We did have to train an extra tall HP fairly quickly, when we decidied to use this method after picking a rapid chute specialist 3rd robot, and assigning ourselves as landfill/capper.

Gary Dillard 08-03-2015 22:29
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Zalinsky (Post 1455157)
As stated above, it is legal, as long as your hand does not enter the field, which has happened a few times this year.
That's not entirely true. Here's the rule (which was changed to be very specific), emphasis mine.

Quote:
G27. ROBOTS and anything they control (except for LITTER in the LITTER CHUTE and TOTES in the TOTE CHUTE), may not contact anything outside the FIELD.
VIOLATION: Offending ROBOT will be DISABLED.
So if the recycle container is on the ground and not in control of a robot you're fine (provided your hand does not enter the field). If you feed litter into a recycle container controlled (held or supported) by a robot you are in violation if any part of the litter is outside the field when it touches the recycle container. Note the severe penalty - robot disabled.

Ben Wolsieffer 08-03-2015 22:33
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dillard (Post 1455268)
If you feed litter into a recycle container controlled (held or supported) by a robot you are in violation if any part of the litter is outside the field when it touches the recycle container. Note the severe penalty - robot disabled.
254, 148, 1678 and others definitely did this though, without any penalty.

Richard Wallace 08-03-2015 22:34
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dillard (Post 1455268)
If you feed litter into a recycle container controlled (held or supported) by a robot you are in violation if any part of the litter is outside the field when it touches the recycle container. Note the severe penalty - robot disabled.
Did you call G27 for this? If you are not a referee, did you see it called this way?

EricLeifermann 08-03-2015 22:35
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Dillard (Post 1455268)
That's not entirely true. Here's the rule (which was changed to be very specific), emphasis mine.



So if the recycle container is on the ground and not in control of a robot you're fine (provided your hand does not enter the field). If you feed litter into a recycle container controlled (held or supported) by a robot you are in violation if any part of the litter is outside the field when it touches the recycle container. Note the severe penalty - robot disabled.
I don't have the q&a question number but this is not true. Entering a noodle into a RC over the wall controlled by a robot is perfectly legal.

mwmac 08-03-2015 22:37
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
check out Q&A #404 for further clarification...

Gary Dillard 08-03-2015 22:44
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
OK I stand corrected, I had asked some early questions in Q&A before they changed the rule and I thought from the wording in the team update when it was changed that the intent was clear. Apparently they've clarified it again.

Quote:
Q421 Q. For purposes of G27, would something that is partly outside of the the FIELD and and partly inside of the FIELD (such as LITTER entering the FIELD over the ALLIANCE WALL) be considered "outside the FIELD"?

FRC3928 on 2015-02-24 | 1 Followers

A. Under G27, the issue is whether or not the contact point on the object itself is outside the FIELD, not how much of the object is in or out of the FIELD. Consider LITTER draped over a GUARDRAIL. Part of the LITTER is inside the FIELD, part is outside the FIELD. If a ROBOT or something it controls contacts the part of the LITTER inside the FIELD, there is no violation. If the ROBOT or something it controls contacts the part of the LITTER outside the FIELD, that is a violation.
I suggested this strategy last week to our team and then retracted it when I read the rules. With the Q&A ruling it's back on the board (we don't compete until week 4).

Nuttyman54 09-03-2015 01:57
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1455273)
I don't have the q&a question number but this is not true. Entering a noodle into a RC over the wall controlled by a robot is perfectly legal.
Q&A 141, 404 and 411 all clarify this.

It is being consistently called as legal at MOST events, however it was deemed illegal at PNW events week 1 in spite of the Q&A's. This seems to have been remedied week 2 and called consistent with the rest of the country, but it would be good to have clarity in the actual rules via rule update (blue box maybe?)

brandon.cottrell 09-03-2015 03:08
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
So I guess it's considered the same as if you were to throw a pool noodle over the alliance wall, and it landed inside a bin on a tote. Except a whole lot more possible.

Paul Copioli 09-03-2015 05:51
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
I searched on the Q & A, but could not find any direct questions. Has anyone asked the specific question about putting litter into the RC over the wall after the last 20 seconds?

If you look at the definition of FIELD and their recent answer 411, then it is possible that, as long as the LITTER is partially still outside the FIELD then this could be legal.

Paul

jnicho15 09-03-2015 07:21
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Teams did it at Southfield while the robot was holding the container, no issues.

rich2202 09-03-2015 07:59
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 1455358)
Has anyone asked the specific question about putting litter into the RC over the wall after the last 20 seconds?
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...leop-also-assu

c.shu 09-03-2015 08:00
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
We did this at Waterford without any penalties.

Edit: Oops see below :O

tr6scott 09-03-2015 08:19
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
^ Sorry, not true, we did receive a penalty for Throwing a noodle in the last twenty seconds, when Tony feed over the wall.

So it was called on us, in eliminations, I think it was a semi-final match, but the scoring does not show up on the youtube video.

Typically our sequence is at the 20 second horn, we pull away and move to the scoring platform, so in a typical match timing we wouldn't do this. But we were called on it once.

Shu 09-03-2015 08:23
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.shu (Post 1455372)
We did this at Waterford without any penalties.
Scott beat me to it.

We did get penalized once in eliminations when it was done in the last 20 seconds. It was late in the match and after a failed attempt he tried to get the noodle into the container as the driver was leaving the human player station. He had to actually give the noodle a short toss to get it into the container(great throw BTW) and it lost contact with his hand so it was considered throwing. I am not sure if it would have been ruled a penalty had he kept contact between his hand and the container.

tr6scott 09-03-2015 08:27
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
http://youtu.be/Xoxw1YVqPjQ?t=2m16s

Bottom right hand corner, not can't see when it leaves Tony's hand.

tstew 09-03-2015 08:58
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 1455358)
I searched on the Q & A, but could not find any direct questions. Has anyone asked the specific question about putting litter into the RC over the wall after the last 20 seconds?

If you look at the definition of FIELD and their recent answer 411, then it is possible that, as long as the LITTER is partially still outside the FIELD then this could be legal.

Paul
I think it's pretty clear in the rules:
Quote:
Originally Posted by G33
LITTER may be introduced onto the FIELD only during TELEOP and only in the following ways:
A. through the LITTER CHUTE, or
B. over the ALLIANCE WALL prior to the last twenty (20) seconds of the MATCH.
VIOLATION: FOUL per LITTER.

GeeTwo 09-03-2015 09:33
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew (Post 1455382)
I think it's pretty clear in the rules:
Quote:
Originally Posted by G33
LITTER may be introduced onto the FIELD only during TELEOP and only in the following ways:
A. through the LITTER CHUTE, or
B. over the ALLIANCE WALL prior to the last twenty (20) seconds of the MATCH.
VIOLATION: FOUL per LITTER.
What isn't clear is the definition of "introduced" - is it when the first part of the litter passes over/through the wall, or the last? The difference only matters for the litter going over the wall.

homerun33ss 09-03-2015 10:53
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Team 948 did this during the PNW Glacier Peak District Event. The human player would squeeze the noodle hard from both ends, so that a bend would form in the middle. This shaped the noodle into a temporary upside-down "L" shape. This allowed them to have one end pointing almost straight down into the RC opening and have the end that the human player was holding be perpendicular to the human player station wall.

GeeTwo 09-03-2015 11:58
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerun33ss (Post 1455426)
Team 948 did this during the PNW Glacier Peak District Event. The human player would squeeze the noodle hard from both ends, so that a bend would form in the middle. This shaped the noodle into a temporary upside-down "L" shape. This allowed them to have one end pointing almost straight down into the RC opening and have the end that the human player was holding be perpendicular to the human player station wall.
I presume that the RCs went on the stack vertically. If you laid them down, the bent litter would be likely to fall out.

homerun33ss 10-03-2015 16:42
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1455460)
I presume that the RCs went on the stack vertically. If you laid them down, the bent litter would be likely to fall out.
That is correct; the RC's were placed in the upright position on top of the tote stack.

rich2202 10-03-2015 17:07
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1455460)
If you laid them down, the bent litter would be likely to fall out.
Unless you insert both ends of the bent litter into the RC

rich2202 10-03-2015 17:09
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 1455358)
Has anyone asked the specific question about putting litter into the RC over the wall after the last 20 seconds?
Q&A Response:

Quote:
a HUMAN PLAYER (or DRIVER) putting LITTER over the ALLIANCE WALL when the timer reads 20 seconds or fewer would be a violation of G33-B
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...leop-also-assu

homerun33ss 10-03-2015 17:14
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1456141)
Unless you insert both ends of the bent litter into the RC
I feel like that would be hard to do without illegally having to put your hand over the wall though.

mwmac 10-03-2015 17:20
Re: Feeding Noodles Over the Wall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerun33ss (Post 1456144)
I feel like that would be hard to do without illegally having to put your hand over the wall though.
check out 1678 last weekend to see how their HP did it very effectively...


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