Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

This is a very major pet peeve of mine, and not sure where or how to address it. Anyone whose hair is long enough that when they walk by or bend over a robot, it touches it, should be tied back so that cannot happen. Preventable injuries are just as likely from this as those prevented by safety glasses OR closed toed shoes. I saw at least three to four people pushing robots at Central Valley regional last weekend where hair was definitely :yikes: touching robots.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

This can be addressed very professionally with the Safety crew (Green shirts). Politely walk up to one and mention what you saw and your concerns and they will ensure all of the teams are informed. Sometimes as a student, other teams don't want to "listen", as they were never informed of the hazzard on their team. If it comes from the Safety Crew, it will be addressed and corrected.

Good Luck everyone competing in Week 3 and beyond

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Sometimes people's hair is tied back though and it still is long enough to touch the robot when leaning over to push it on the cart... What would you propose then?

P.S. I am one of those people and I know it is a super safety hazard... Help!!

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Some of our girls tuck their hair into the back of their clothing. It may look slightly strange but it is better than the girl who didn't tie her hair up, leaned forward into the drill press and had to get someone to free her. There was also my schoolmate in high school who lost a patch from the front of his afro (it was in style at the time).

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Braids, buns, or doubled-over ponytail folds. Another thing that works is tucking those long ponytails or braids into the collar of your shirt while you're in the pit. (I've had hair down to my waist during competition season before.)

-Slightly-off-topic rant-

Something that hasn't been touched on in this thread that's really important:
Don't EVER touch someone's hair, body, clothes, etc without their permission. (Unless they're about to get in caught in something, or there's an imminent danger. Then, obviously, save them.)

My team was just talking about this over the weekend. I've had students/mentors on other teams, but most often Safety Advisors, grab my long hair and start to hold it back, while I'm simply standing there in the pit - yelling at me to tie my hair back. Dude, seriously? There's nothing happening right now where my hair is going to get me hurt. I've seen it happen to others, and it's happened to me, both as a student and an adult mentor.

It's a serious invasion of personal space, which is something I've noticed our community is sometimes pretty bad at (mascots, 'free hugs', etc.), and it has to stop. It is not your 'right' as Team XYZ's safety captain - and especially not as an event volunteer - to, in any way, get into a team member's physical space in the name of safety.

Talk to them about it. Use your words. Keep boundaries well-respected.

Slightly-off-topic rant over. Continue discussion.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

zip ties....they work

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

This is slightly off topic, but also very important. In addition to long hair other things to mind while working on the robot include: those two strings that dangle off sweatshirts and any type of jewelry that could dangle down into the robot. those things can get caught just as easily in the robot and cause really bad injuries. The solution is simple, just tuck the dangling item under your shirt, but its easy to get caught up in what you're doing and forget!

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

We have a mandatory ponytail policy for girls in the pits or on the field (including me!)

What about a proactive approach - a display with free ponytail holders and a warning about the dangers of hair entanglement?

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Part of a safety culture is recognizing appropriate precautions. The only people that really need their hair tied back are people actively working on a robot. Anybody not actively working on an enabled robot should be far enough away that the robot cannot reach out and grab them. If not they are not working safely. A crowded pit is more dangerous than loose hair.

Not to say tying your hair back as matter of policy isn't a good idea.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Long hair in the pits isn't that bad. Long hair while using power tools or having your head stuck in a robot is.

On our team, we have a general rule about hair - it must be safely tied back of your in the machine shop, using power tools, or using soldering irons (I *really* hate the smell of burned hair). This extends to the pit at competition... If your working on the robot, you need to have your hair properly stowed. If you're there programming, or as a pit presenter for judges, or just talking to spectators, it just isn't important.

And anyone that forgets to bring something to tie their hair back with gets a zip tie. It may not be a super fashion statement, but it's effective!

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

It makes you look like an engineer! How is that not a fashion statement?

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Along the lines of what Libby and others have said-

One often overlooked aspect of Safety is the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" aspect of enforcement. If practices irrelevant to particular situations are crammed down someone's throat, they can be desensitized to the importance of said practice when it is actually needed.

As pointed out above, if there is not a an obvious hazard (such as sticking your head in a robot) we should be respectful of other people's space.

This same advice applies to similar situations in the pits. The classic case of shouting robot incessantly, even when the robot does not have an obstacle in its path. Additionally, things like removing your safety glasses in a safe area, to clean/defog them.

This is not picking and choosing when to enforce safety, its using common sense to avoid desensitizing people to ACTUALLY dangerous situations.


If you are a team member, trying to point out a safety issue to a member of another team, please remember to be polite and make a suggestion- not an order.

-Brando

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Thank you all for bringing this up our team tends to go with a theme every year and this year we might need to bring some extra attention to some of the costuming details.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I always love it when safety advisors recommend wearing gloves...yeah, that's not going to happen.

I do get annoyed when someone tells me to wear my safety glasses when I'm obviously cleaning them. How safe is it to wear safety glasses when you can't see out of them?

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I actually get a lot of flak for wearing my normal glasses even though I got them so that they are rated for construction sites. They come with side shields and everything yet somehow someone always comments about it. Does anyone know if we are expected to wear traditional looking safety glasses if our prescription ones are already up to par?

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Regarding long hair:

I've competed with extremely long hair in the past. Pony tails, braids, and buns usually do the trick of keeping you safe. If you experience hair that occasionally falls over your shoulder or if working in tight pit constraints, tucking hair into your shirt has always proven very effective for me.


To Libby's "Slightly-Off-Topic Rant"
I really appreciate you highlighting this! Teams, please, lets keep this event safe, fun, and comfortable for everyone.

Volunteers, even as a referee I forget to put my safety goggles or you may not see my side guards. Do not grab! Do not put hands in my face! A simple reminder usually gets glasses on fairly efficiently. :)

Kindly be respectful of everyone's personal space!!

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

THIS.

Too many people (team safety captains and event volunteers will completely invade someones space and then get mad at the person because they just violated them. I don't see it as a professional behavior to walk up to someone and tell them they need to do something now or grab their hair and put it in a zip tie for them(yes I have seen it). Long story short, be respectful and use common sense when you politely ask someone to correct what you think is a safety concern...
-Ronnie

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

If you have ANSI Z87 rated prescription glasses, with clear lenses and side shields, you shouldn't need an additional layer. The only exception would be scenarios where you'd want lab-style goggles, and those are generally prohibited in the pit anyways.

"Thanks for your concern. These are prescription safety glasses."

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Besides untied hair, wearing lanyards and ties in the pit is another hazard that is often overlooked. These are no different than wearing necklaces or long, dangling hair.

As others have stated, I don't think that untied hair, lanyards, and ties are not an issue if you are not actually WORKING in the pit.

And yes, we should all keep our hands to ourselves when asking people to tie back their hair. I can't believe that even has to be said. Ick.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I've been wearing my prescription safety glasses this year. I paid for them, I wear them working in a factory they are good enough for a FIRST event.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Per page 3 of the 2015 FRC Safety Manual:
Additionally, section 4.2.1 of the 2015 Admin Manual states:
So it seems to me that, so long as the glasses are safety rated by one or more of the organization's listed and have side shields, you're fine. As these are straight from FIRST's rulebooks, there really isn't any ambiguity or personal opinion involved. I would just encourage you to know these sections well and to have some sort of proof regarding the safety rating of your glasses, in the event you come up against a stubborn individual. It's much easier (and more GP!) to show the pertinent rules and safety rating than it is to get into a protracted argument :)

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

At the Waterbury District Event the other week, there was a team (I'm not sure which in particular as I was in the stands at the time, or else I would credit them specifically) who passed out hair ties in all of the pits. It served as very positive reinforcement of safety guidelines, as it was not pushy/rude and did not invade personal space, but did remind everyone who walked into the pits that their hair should be tied back if it's not short enough to stay out of the way on its own. This is probably the best way to do it, as I'm assuming that most people with long hair who don't tie it back are only doing so because they forgot hair ties or forgot altogether about the issue of their hair in the midst of all the robot craziness!

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I suspect you are referring to the tub with hair ties that was left in each team's pit by the hosting team 3525. I also thought this was a very nice touch and much appreciated.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

My local Eye Lab made a little card for me that says they are safety glasses and the ANSI standard they are made to. I try the "they are safety glasses, thanks for asking" and if I get push back I dig out the card. That's never failed me.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Yale Student Killed as Hair Gets Caught in Lathe
Ick.

I used to work in power plants. I sometimes wore a tie. Great way to be garroted. I always tucked it in when touring the plant.
(I also tuck it on when I eat lunch. The shirt goes in the washer, the tie needs to be dry-cleaned.)

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Our shop specifies safety goggles, closed toe/heel shoes, and hair ties when you enter the shop. Same for tucking in anything loose... We also specify no jewelry on hands/wrists. The entire shop is needs to be a safe place, whether you are actively working on a machine or not. Same with us at competition, the only time we can let our hair loose is in the stands.

We have numerous mentors on duty with various missing body parts (lucky enough to just have missing body parts) who can illustrate to problems in a shop even when you are careful.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Thank you for saying this. Some of my students and I have encountered this as well.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

You shouldn't need the card, they should just believe you. It's a silly thing to lie about anyway. I can show them the Z87 2+ engraving on mine, but I have to take them off to do so...

A girl in my high school shop class met a drill press up close and personal one day after her stylish hair got caught. She didn't look as pretty afterwards with a chunk of her scalp missing just above her temple. Our kids tie back their hair when they work with equipment that requires such precautions, I really don't need to see that happen again.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Anyone else think this thread was going to be about styling your back hair? Just me? Pfft!

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Can I take this thread as my first opportunity this year to say that Safety Theater is NOT safety, and that I agree with Libby, this time as with the other times in past years when she has stood up against socially unsafe behavior. In some ways, these social tact/appropriate behavior issues are more dangerous to our students than the usual shop safety issues are.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

There's a bigger problem with the social tact norms - *a lot* of students simply do not understand this. Every single year, I have to tell the students on the team to separate themselves and not hug, touch, massage their team mates or people they meet. These people think that everyone are friendly and welcomes all of these social intrusions - like everybody they see on TV/Netflix/whatever else. It takes a while for them to understand that the workspace is completely different from their personal friend space. Hopefully, they learn that by the time Competition comes around...

I have a rule about keeping arms length from people and making sure people are separated with their personal space... sometimes that's hard to do when you have to work on the robot though. And the pit, it's hard enough to squeeze the fab, safety, marketing, and the programming team into the same 10x10 space.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Our head coach has had a chat with the varsity (that is, those going to the venue on Thursday and Friday) shortly before competition every year. This is one of the topics, because our team is rather huggy (being founded by Gixxy, could it be anything else?).
Another big point every year is like unto it. The rule is - we are family - don't let a stranger harass your brother or sister, sexually or otherwise.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

At every event, the first thing I do on arrival is go visit 1492 Team Caution and get about two feet of caution tape. You know the stuff, 3-4 inches wide, yellow, black letters. I then ask one of the young ladies on our team to tie a nice bow in my ponytail using said tape. Works like a charm, keeps everything behind me and out of the machines.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Having your hair tied back when you're in the same room as power tools (or a robot) is generally a good idea. While the immediate risk is less for anyone not working actively with them, you never know what situations may arise very quickly. This is especially true in an area as cramped and crowded as the pits at a competition. If an event occurs that forces people to move rapidly (say someone trips or loses control of a power tool), they may suddenly change from being at a safe distance to in a precarious position. Always tie your hair back. The benefit of free flowing hair does not outweigh the potential hazard, however unlikely.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

The whole 'free hugs' thing is so cringey.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I've never seen that happen before, but since at Peachtree/GSCR probably half of the refs and scoring table all wear standard glasses with side shields, it's hard to get on anyone else. We even loaned a pair of side shields out to a student on a drive team during elims at GSCR! :)

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Isn't this true regardless of the hair style? Someone who has hair tied back but hanging down to their waist is in just as much danger from a sudden event behind them as someone without hair tied back is to one in front of them.

The reason people tie their hair back is to keep it from hanging down in front of them while they work - if it hangs, it obstructs vision and dangles in the area they are working in. It is NOT done to handle sudden situations that may occur around them. If we want to concern ourselves with those situations, we would need to have anyone with long hair put it up in a tight bun or wear a shower cap to keep it contained.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I hope people do in fact understand this and have the long hair not just simply tied back, but contained. Our folks know to contain it or they need to tuck it into their shirts.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

If someone trips with a drill or other equipment in their hand, everyone (long hair, short hair, no hair) is going to have a safety issue.

I think asking people (not just girls) to tie hair back is a good idea. But there should also be efforts made to eliminate the other hazards. If someone tripping with a drill gets the drill caught in another person's hair, odds are they could get the drill caught in the person's shirt/body. That affects everyone.

Tie your hair back and if it still obstructs your work area, then put it in a bun. I have always had long hair and usually pulling it back is adequate. If it's not, then it goes in a bun. But telling girls to wear hair nets or tuck their ponytails in their shirts (which doesn't work super well) because there might be someone tripping behind them just seems like overkill. (Not to mention alienating to girls.)

Eliminate trip hazards by making your work area less crowded. Don't rush. Use the safety devices with your tools. That should be more than sufficient.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I posit that one should have their hair tied back in any area where safety glasses are required, whether or not they are using a power tool at that moment. The fact is that there are a lot of potential hazards: other people using power tools, robots moving/actuating, etc. No one can promise to have perfect situation awareness and avoid all active robots and power tools!

I suggest that rather than 'desensitizing' people to tying their hair back that we make it a habit: you put your safety glasses on, you tie your hair back, you control lose clothing, you take off your jewelry, etc.

It has taken a bit of concerted effort, but I remove my wedding band any time I put my safety glasses on. I know that it is unsafe to have a ring on around robots and power tools. Although I'm not always using power tools or interacting with robots I never know when I might have to make a quick grab or push to keep someone/something else safe. (These situations do not occur frequently, but they do happen, who here hasn't hit the power switch (or similar) in a hurry before?)

Edit: [RANT] Also, please be gracious and professional if someone points out something you're doing that is potentially unsafe (hair, clothing, jewelry, etc), do not become defensive or sarcastic. They are doing so because they do not want you to be hurt, not to inconvenience you. I was VERY annoyed when students and mentors on other teams rolled their eyes at me when I asked them to put their safety glasses back on in the pits. [/RANT]

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Hi everyone (first post!)

The scenario I picture is this: Someone in your pit is using (safely) a power tool such as a drill or sander. You are standing well back, observing, and your hair is not secured because you figure you are standing far enough back for it not to be a hazard. Another team is moving their robot in the alleyway behind you. Suddenly, their robot slips off the cart and starts to come crashing down where you are standing. You quickly step out of the way, with room to spare - but your long hair flies into the path of the sander.

We could play all sorts of "what if" scenarios (maybe you shouldn't be standing around observing, maybe the drill station should be in the back corner of your pit, etc.) but the point stands - we must always be prepared for the unexpected.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Yea, that's a lot of what-if scenarios. I mean I really can't picture a scenario where that wouldn't be easily preventable by reducing other hazards.

a) design carts where robots can't "slip off" and have robot escorts there to ensure safe transportation

b) use power tools well inside the pit where they can't be easily accessed by people in the aisle. Remember we often have visitors at these events who stand just outside the pits.

Besides, how really likely is it that even if you moved out of the way of a falling robot that your hair would swing far enough into the line of a drill? It's really, really unlikely. It's more likely that someone's clothing would get caught before hair would.

I just find it odd hat there is this fascination with discussing tying hair back to the point of "let's all wear hairnets and tuck into our shirts" (both of which could STILL get caught in the drill in your scenario) but there is almost no talk of other really serious and highly prevalent issues.

Like for one, robots should never be run in the pits. If your robot is in the pits and is ON it should be on a cart where the wheels can't run. That way if you lose control and the wheels move, you won't run someone over. THAT scenario has actually happened to our team when another team was "practicing" with their robot, lost control, and literally RAN one of our mentors over.

Can we start that thread?

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

robochick, just because there are other safety measures that should be in place doesn't mean you can ignore the ones about hair. Yes, these scenarios are unlikely and (hopefully) preventable, but that doesn't excuse you from taking proper precautions. These recommendations regarding hair are not being made up. They match with OSHA's suggestions and just about every professional environment involving tools or machinery. I say this as someone who sports hair past my shoulders.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Yes, you are absolutely right. I was just surprised that a debate over ponytails vs. buns was getting so much attention when other more dangerous and common issues go ignored.

OSHA does recommend tying hair back but does say that ponytails are acceptable. Like I said earlier, I don't see the problem with letting people (with hair longer than 4 inches) tie their hair in a ponytail most of the time and then opt for a bun for more up-close, high-risk situations.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

:eek:

Agreed, they should always be up on blocks anywhere outside the field or a practice area. Even then, everyone needs to be aware of their surroundings... I was at a practice field at one point where another team was trying to control their robot and it was driving erratically and nearly mowing down his own teammates. I stepped well back...

I'm new to FIRST and the FRC experience so I am very much learning by "trial by fire" but one thing I do really appreciate is all the attention to safety and cleanliness.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

From my perspective the other issues that you reference are not being ignored, they just aren't being discussed on CD at the moment.

If you think that it is a discussion worth having, start a thread! Don't wait for someone else to start the thread if you feel strongly about it.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

I completely agree that carts should be safe, tools should be used in a safe manner. I think that's the trade-offs with what-ifs. We can indeed bubble-wrap every single person and tool in a shop and still someone will get hurt - completely true.

We try to instill a mindset that if something can go wrong in a shop, on a machine, in a program - in fact, it will, and it will do so at the most inopportune time. #1, how likely is it to happen; #2, how can you prevent it from happening; #3, how can you safeguard against the likelihood of damage/injuries/death from this type of failure.

The most important thing is what can the single person do to make it safe for their own person; and then we can move forward with looking at how we can make the rest of the shop safe - as a group. To me, the personal stuff is the easiest - it only takes you and it doesn't take a superhuman effort or cost anything. Start with the low-hanging fruits and move up.

The other thing is that we have a mix of all different types of teenagers and young adults working with us. Some more mindful than others. I really don't want a moment of inattention to leave any permanent marks on them. We have boys and girls who have long hair, who tries to come into shop with long dangly sleeves, jewelry, long coats. We do try to prepare them that it is the shop policy - it's not about alienation or hurt feelings. It is about making sure that they come out from this experience empowered about what they can do and with all of their body parts intact.

Yes, I do show pictures of people with bits of metal shards stuck in their eyeball, fingers degloved, lacerations from sharp edges, hair ripped out and scalped, people entrapped under heavy equipment - those along with proper tool usage and safety training. It's like the old-school "Red Asphalt" driving school videos. It works for the majority of them. The ones who repeatedly and willfully violate shop policies are removed from the team.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

That happens to be the most fun way to learn, if you want to be on the safe side you can learn by asking questions though. Generally speaking I don't think having a robot driving around in a pit is a smiled upon action.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

You're right, I should. I guess I'm just a CD lurker who only posts now and then. #mybad

In my area, the robots running on the ground issue seems to be ignored. Because the incident I referenced happened in 2013, was immediately reported, and STILL happens at the regionals we attend and in increasing numbers.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Please do start that thread, I think you might be interested by some of the responses, including mine.

Re: Tying back hair in the pits at competition
 

Everyone,

Ask any person who has had jewelry, clothing, hair, hands, feet, eyes, or anything else become entangled with, or damaged by, a machine whether they thought they were going to pay enough attention to that machine (and others), and to all other activity around themselves, to stay out of trouble.

I'll bet you a very nice dinner that their answer will be, "Yes." If you find someone who says "No, I was inattentive on purpose.", separate yourself from them ASAP.

Like Sean says,
- ANY time you are in an area containing hazards, *actually* protect yourself.

- AND (I'll add this), telling yourself/others that you will protect yourself by being alert, and by paying enough attention (in all directions) to avoid danger; for any non-trivial period, or when dangerous stuff can fly far or fast; is DUMB (see above).

As they say, "Don't cut your nose off to spite your face."

Everyone, please don't enter a hazardous area, and then try to only be as safe as is necessary for someone with your amazing powers of concentration and clairvoyance.

Instead, just be safe. It's really not that hard, and you will set a good example for the lesser mortals around you.

Blake