Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I brought this up in another thread and it was recommended that it become it's own topic so here it is.

I have a major concern about teams running/driving/powering on their robots in the pit. There are 3 places where a robot is turned on and enabled: the practice field, the team's pit, and the competition field. When the robot is on and enabled in the pit, it should be on blocks of some kind that prevent the wheels from touching the ground.

My team had serious safety incident at a regional when another team was "practicing driving" with their robot in the pit directly across from us, lost control, and literally ran one of our mentors over. It was reported and dealt with but the story doesn't end there. It's been a few years and I STILL see teams running their robots on the pit floor, intentionally or not.

It is particularly alarming to me since I see children and disabled visitors in the pit area who could be greatly injured by a rampaging robot and couldn't easily run away.

Has anyone noticed this safety issue? Any ideas of what can we do as a community to raise awareness of it?

(Also, this is my first time every starting a thread. That's how much I care about this. Yikes :ahh: )

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

To keep it safe, we run our robot (if we ever need to at the pits) in our cart, which has slots for the robot's wheels, so it doesn't drive out of the cart. To raise awareness, I would recommend suggesting to the pit administration at your regional to announce not to run robots in the pits on the floor.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I'd say that, like the last thread about safety, the only answer to this is to use common sense, and that the correct form of action is based on a case by case scenario. Everyone tests their robot systems while in the pits, usually to a smaller extent due to pit sizing, but everyone does it nonetheless. It's essential to getting things working. Testing is part of the engineering process (and this is an engineering competition after all). However every once in a while, like you mentioned, someone doesn't think (or doesn't know), and does something that ultimately results in an injury - either to themselves, or to someone else. Are these actions a danger? Yes. Should the mistakes of a few penalize everyone else who does these practices safely? I'd say not.

Throwing rules at the problem won't make people more safe - it'll just make more people rule-breakers. The best solution is to create a culture that respects safety and is well-educated on its finer points. Safe practices and common sense should be the norm, not the outlier. Set it as the default standard that everyone should be held to. Don't parade around a team and give them a safety award for doing what everyone should be doing already. I'm being realistic here: The average team gives 0 fluffs about the safety award. Why? Because it's not an achievement - it's a standard. Teams shouldn't be celebrated for being safe in the same way students shouldn't be celebrated for doing their homework - it's what they're supposed to do. The more safety is celebrated as "special" and treated as "outside the norm", the more it's going to become so.

If you're serious about safety, straighten up, buckle down, and make a culture within your team and your community where safe practices are expected and respected, not celebrated.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I agree with you on many points. My team takes safety very seriously but as my incident shows it doesn't matter how safe we are if those working in our area make blatantly wrong and unsafe decisions. Especially when they do these things after being told they are unsafe and even seeing that they are unsafe.

Maybe FIRST can't make a solid rule in the manual. Maybe volunteers could just go around enforcing the "no testing the robot on the floor of the pit" rule just like they enforce the safety glasses rule. The only way it will become a standard is if we start addressing it like a standard.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Do realize if Flash (OP) is at a competition, they pretty much win the safety award. They do it without being obtrusive to other teams. If you are testing your robot in the pits, you need to be ready for unexpected actions (why else would you test?). This needs to drilled into anybody enabling a robot in the pits. Be sure to tie their hair back first.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Hey,

I think we (Some of us, not all) do stupid things in the name of desperation. A lot of it stems from thinking that if we just do X then it will all be alright.

I have gotten to volunteer as a safety advisor for the past few years. I have seen some crazy things in the name of desperation. There is also the "we do this all the time" factor to consider.

So...What I suggest? If you see someone doing something unsafe, politely ask them to stop the behavior. If they don't respond reasonably, then go to a mentor...If that doesn't work then get a safety advisor and let them know...

I hope this helps more than it hurts...

Edoga

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I could only surmise (not to excuse them or the behavior) that the situation OP described were b/c that team was "in a hurry"; why would it be ok to have the wheels in contact with the floor within the pit.

wood blocks, painted in team colors and stenciled with logo or team#, handed out at the events ?

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Our robot cart has the robot sit on blocks and it's secured via bungee cords so it's safe to run as long as it's on the cart and is clear of people.

We take safety very seriously. It's not really even a discussed thing, it's just kind of a common knowledge unspoken rule. Anything that poses an immediate threat means safety glasses, tied up hair (haha nobody has long hair but for the sake of safety), situational awareness, and anyone who is not working with the tool is required to stand a safe distance away or back into the room (we drag our large power tools outside the classroom, so if you're not working outside you're inside).

We did have an incident where a new student (who wanted to join mid-way through build season) used the belt sander with a kitchen mitt (one that's not owned by the team, nonetheless) and got a serious talk with everyone on the team.

I digress, from what I've noticed teams at the SD Regional 2014 have robot carts that lift the wheels off any points of contact and then is run when clear.
It was also made fairly clear that any robot operation would be done at the practice field, and luckily for us we were 20 feet away from the practice field so it wasn't that big of a deal to us.
But it was very clear that the robot shouldn't be run in the pit without it blocked up properly.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I recognize that many times the safety award isn't necessarily awarded for great reason, and/or it's not clear to other teams why the award was given. The definition of the award, from the rulebook, is "Celebrates the team that progresses beyond safety fundamentals by using innovative ways to eliminate or protect against hazards." Personally, I think that's a great goal - we're going beyond the basic safety stuff that every team should do (but that many forget about, thus threads like these) and celebrating teams that are actually role models for the rest of FIRST when it comes to safety. The problem we have is that often judges are "wowed" by the "safety theater" that many teams put on at events, and they miss the cool stuff that teams might do that isn't just for show.


As for the OP, if you see a team being unsafe in any regard, grab one of the UL Safety Advisors (they wear the green shirts), and clearly describe to them what you saw and what your concerns are. The Safety Advisors can then approach the team and talk to them about safe practices and hopefully get the point across.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

i feel its more important to just notice what going on around you and be aware of it so you know if something is going to go wrong. my old English teacher from high-school once said be respectful Responsible and safe with safety 3rd as if your 1 and 2 the 3rd will fallow suit.

this year specifically it is hard with the pit size and the robot size to not be completely 100% safe but if you notify the people around you to be on alert you should be fine..

as someone who is generally unsafe at work etc. in my personal opinion and I know many of you are gonna hate on it but I think safety is taken way to seriously in first and personally I would advocate it too loosen up some will that ever happen absolutely not. I think safety tends to scare people into not trying something new because of all the caution around it, im perfectly healthy with all my body parts still and i have done some unsafe practices at work.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I know your team is safe (Flash is one of the great role models in safety) - I'm saying this is something the community needs to do. It's a culture that needs to be made and respected by everyone. There doesn't need to be rules against potentially dangerous things (like testing in the pits) if the potential for danger is removed from the equation by everyone executing safe practices. I love testing my robot on the floor of the pit - it is a quick and easy way to make testing game object collection and small driving tests more reliable and realistic to being on a field, and as long as I am taking the right precautions in regards to the safety of myself, my team, and those around me, I see no reason why I should be required to not test as I please. The same applies for everyone else. Like I said - it's a case by case scenario. If Johnny Teammember is doing some unsafe testing, maybe the pit safety advisers can take away his team's privileges of testing in the pit until they understand how to correctly and safely test, but there's still no reason why everyone else should be punished because of the actions of a minority group of people.

You are right that the only way it will become a standard is by addressing it as one, and the proper way to do so is to educate everyone on the correct way of action instead of punishing everyone for something they didn't do.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I'm glad to see that there are so many people out there who recognize this safety issue. And you are all absolutely right: politely reminding teams and reporting issues to the UL Safety Judges are the ways to handle it. I'm just dreaming of a time in FIRST when running the robot on the pit floor cause you want to go for a "test drive" will be as obviously wrong as wearing open toed shoes and no safety glasses in the pit.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I think that there shouldn't necessarily be a rule against testing in the pit, with or without blocks. If a team is testing their robot unsafely (i.e. running autonomous, drive testing, ect...), someone should be told (i.e. a mentor or safety inspector). However, testing your robot on the floor alone shouldn't be considered unsafe or be against the rules. In some cases, like the mentioned incident of a neighboring team running over a mentor with a robot, teams testing their robot on the pit floor have gone about it unsafely. Some teams, however, make sure to safely test their robot when in the pits. For example, we needed to test our automatic tote stacking button. To do that, we put our robot on the pit floor and ran it. However, we made sure before hand that driving was completely disabled. The worst our robot could do is move it's lift. I think IF a rule should be made/actually enforced about robot operation in the pits, it should be preventing robots from driving on the floor of the pits; that's what seems to be really unsafe.

TL;DR: I think robots being active on the floor of pits are fine; just don't drive or have driving enabled.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Here's the thing though,
you can't visibly tell if a team has disabled drive. I don't doubt you or your team's skill to disable code, but some teams aren't as savvy or experienced with FRC programming. If this is introduced, it only takes one incident (See the OP's) to instantly ban it again. It's safer to just not allow it to be run on the ground at all.

TL;DR it only takes one bad apple etc etc.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

One of the issues that I've seen is that the operator on it (we were in the practice field at the time) mistakenly left the DS with autonomous selected. The driver enabled the robot and it took off. Had we been in the pits, it would been on the blocks and wouldn't have actually gone anywhere. Do we double-check that the DS is in the intended mode ? Yes. Will someone make a mistake - it's still a possibility.

We make checklists for a lot of things that we do - but for some reason, the majority of the teenagers/young-adults despises checklists; it takes them a year and a half to get warmed up to the idea. So, we have checklists, and there are angry eyes every time that I make them use it.

Having said that, if we are doing anything other than running the drive wheels while we are in the pit, we let our neighbors know so that they know to be ready if we start yelling.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Following that logic:

"You can't visibly tell if a team has a safe robot. I don't doubt you or your team's skill to make a safe robot, but some teams aren't as savvy or experienced with making them safe. If a rule to allow robots at competitions is introduced, it only takes one incident (see any) to instantly ban them again. It's safer to just not allow robots at the events at all.

TL;DR it only takes one bad apple etc etc."


The reality is this isn't a soft pillow tossing competition. It's robotics. It's going to be more dangerous, and there is going to be a higher potential for mishaps. Robotics is what is it - the more you try and change it, the further you get from what it is. Don't change the game - change the approach.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I can see a robot being on the floor of the pit, but I definitely agree that robots should not be driven in the pit at all. Disconnecting motors would be the safest way to test IMO if the robot has to be on the floor and enabled.

EDIT: I can see "safety culture" being a good thing, but it should be taken as a given that although not everyone will follow the rules, most will if there is a rule and it's at least mildly enforced, especially by people with authority like safety inspectors. But there will always be exceptions. Without a rule it makes it a lot easier to justify doing unsafe things.
Promote safety culture but don't expect everybody to just be safe all the time with no penalties. It's naive to expect everybody to follow something ethereal like that.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Exactly. I'm sure teams like 1902 can take precautions to disable the drive train but accidents do happen. Even lifting the wheels a little bit off the ground shouldn't drastically affect what you're testing, right? And it adds an extra layer of protection for everyone. It accounts for what causes most accidents--operator error.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with this standpoint. Operating a powertool like a table saw or mill is inherently dangerous. There is an accepted and understandable level of risk that people have to accept when doing any activity. We can strive to be accident free and have a good safety culture, but having a safety culture means understanding there is a certain amount of risk in any activity.

The safety argument you're making always sounds good - you always have the 'we can prevent accidents' and 'think of the children' arguments to fall back on. It is up to us filter those arguments through a seive of common sense that says there is a certain amount of risk pursuing any activity and that we accept that risk as part of what we do.

I disagree with restricting our ability to safety test a robot on the pit floor.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I wholeheartedly agree.

This is a robotics competition which means there are large moving objects, power tools, pinch points, heavy lifting, etc which means by being involved in the program or being present in the pits you are exposing yourself to risks. While I agree that the pits should be a safe environment they should also be an environment that still allows teams to operate as a team which occasionally does require testing. Yes some testing can be done on the practice field however teams do not get sufficient access to practice space at events nor are they suitable for quick testing when something breaks or you need to tweak something and quickly test it before getting to your match.

Always exercise caution, talk to the team, and consult the safety advisers if you need be. I don't think a once size fits all approach works in these situations.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

There are practice fields for you to fully test your drive. Placing safeguards (like blocks) for the robot to sit on while testing in the pits is an easy way to prevent avoidable and HIGH risk accidents. What can you not test with the robot on the blocks? Do the wheels run? Does the robot turn appropriately? Do encoders work? Can the arm lift? My teams tests all of these things with the robot lifted off the ground. There is inherit risk in this industrial sport, of course. But our tools have safeguards.

I don't get the counterargument against the very simple and effective safeguard of some wooden blocks. I especially don't understand it after I saw my own father run over by 120 lb robot and when I see small children like my 3 year old niece visiting the pit. There is no reason not put these safeguards in place.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Thanks for starting this thread, I think it is a good topic.

I agree with robochick1319, I don't think running the robot in your pit is a good idea. Granted, I'm the new guy here, and I've only been to one regional, and seen the pits at that one venue, but they were cramped, and crowded, with people in every pit working and people in the alleyways transporting robots and there were kids walking around, judges, inspectors, scouting teams... people everywhere.

The pits at my venue were about 8x10 and especially this year with the robot size restrictions (apparently) removed, there were some very large robots. We barely had enough room for someone to squeeze past either side. What I'm trying to say here is: even if we wanted to try actual driving in our pit, there was only enough room to go one way: Out. Into the alley!

On the other hand there were two practice areas and the lineups were never too long to get on there to try some things. If the concern was that there wasn't enough then maybe the organizers can look at adding additional practice or drive areas.

I would want to highly discourage testing your driving in your pit, but I don't know that I would necessarily outright ban it. However, should your robot suddenly charge out of your pit area and run someone over, there should be serious consequences.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I agree. The pit spaces are very small so it is sketchy to run power tools in. If we let robots on the ground then running power tools is even more sketchy. You could make the argument that frc is inherently dangerous, to which I say all the more reason to enforce safety elsewhere in the competition.

It's about reducing the risk of injury short of not having a competition at all.

Have you guys ever run someone over in a car? It's terrifying. Imagine running over someone's little brother visiting his older brother in the pits with a 120 pound robot. Not as terrifying, but would probably make you feel guilty for at least a couple hours.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I would be quite upset if we were prohibited from driving the robot on the ground in our pit because it is very easy to do it safely.

When we test our robot on the floor (which is about the only way to evaluate certain performance changes) we establish what we call the 'kill radius.' This terms stems from my experience using axes/mauls/chain-saws - the radius around an operation where a bystander could be hurt. We spread team members around this 'kill radius' to keep people away from our robot when it's being run. This is a practice that has earned us compliments from various safety officials.

In addition to establishing a kill radius around the robot we put one person on the controls whose sole job is to mash the disable button if anything goes wrong. To avoid confusion only one person is ever allowed to issue verbal commands to the drivers, with the exception of "STOP" which everyone is allowed to say.

Now, if teams are at a loss for how to operate their robot with the drive disabled... pull the drive motor breakers. This is what we do when we operate the robot on workbench or other place where we want the wheels on the ground but cannot afford to have it drive. It requires no nuances or expertise and takes just a few seconds.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

That's great your team can test everything on wood blocks but 1319 isn't every team out there and I mean that with the utmost respect. Your 15 safety awards mean something and its obviously a culture your team strives towards each season. Keep it up! :)

Like I said under the current practice field rules teams do not have access to practice space that is flexible and available for them to test these items that some find un-safe such as testing your robot in the pits. At the beginning of the day I have to send a student to the practice field to sign up for one or two 10 minute slots that fall between our match schedules. If we wait all the time slots will start filling up and I run the risk that I can't use my time because it falls under the window of when we'll be in the que line (which happened this weekend and we lost a slot each day). Occasionally we've been able to trade slots with other teams but they also have a schedule they are following. Even though I have those two slots I never know if and when something is going to break that will require us to put the robot on the floor and make sure it works and sometimes it involves making sure we can move even just a few inches but we try to do as much as we can on our cart.

We try to save big testing for those two slots we have each day however there are still items we found we need to test in our pit. Due to the unique nature of our intake this year we can't test picking up game pieces on our cart since its a roller bar that comes under the game pieces. Once I block the robot up the intake is now higher than it will be on the field and useless.

Again I would honestly be fine with a rule that says no testing in the pits IF a suitable alternative is put in place that greatly increases the availability and quantity of teams that can test their robots at a time but that does put more pressure on events to make the space available and have the space to begin with.

I've liked how the championship has turned the practice spaces into a first come first serve basis however for a 400 team event (and now 600) there still isn't enough access to them. At the championship having a much longer turn around time between matches means you can wait for 30 minutes in line to access those areas but at some regionals and districts you can have two matches in the span of 30 minutes. Personally I wish the championship added more areas with just carpeting also first come first serve basis in addition to what they have now.

The same can be said for tools in pits. If events start taking certain power tools away from teams due to safety concerns (while other events have different reasons) then steps need to be taken to make sure the event machine shop has more tools and is better staffed so it becomes a more viable option for teams instead of trying to attempt less safe alternatives for when your mini drill press gets taken away. I've had to wait over an hour to get some parts back at an event that would take less than five minutes in our pit.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I like these policies.

(Although, again, our pit was standing room only for the robot and the couple of people working on it, I can't imagine having enough room for the robot and a kill radius AND people standing around a perimeter - not without going into the alley!)

Again, I would support the ability to be flexible but if a team loses control and someone gets hurt because they were not following safe practices, I would want to see that team get appropriate training and reprimanding. I don't necessarily want to see all punitive actions but that should be a step along the way if a team is being egregriously unsafe despite attempts to train and warn them.

My first retail job was at a Canadian Tire and I still remember what my boss said on day 1. He said that if you do it wrong, there are three possible reasons. (1) You didn't know, which isn't necessarily your fault if you weren't taught. (2) You forgot, which is forgivable once or twice. Beyond that, it's (3) You don't care [enough].

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

We did grow into the alley, slowing down traffic. However, it was only for 15-60s at a time so it never seemed to be a large impediment. Our pit-neighbors seemed to appreciate us being safe.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

There are so many rules you can make and try to enforce...still it will never be foolproof.

Everyone in the team who can turn on the robot must be trained to operate it safely. This is imperative this season, not just the rogue drive can hurt someone, with many robots designed with extended actuators can easily maim someone. In FIM Howell district event, during a match the refree had to dodge a swinging arm. If the robot operators cultivate this habit to ensure robot operates in safe environment.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

whats the next step gloves being mandatory for all pit members?

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

That is an entirely different issue that is unrelated to the robots running on the floor of the pit. Gloves are not always the right PPE for every situation so the short answer is no. Let's not devolve into a slippery slope argument because that was not my intention, I promise. :)

But it stands to reason that if people can't be on the field when robots are running during a match (or even put their hands over the wall a tiny bit to feed a noodle) why is it ok for a robot to run around in a crowded pit space with lots of bystanders?

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Well talking about the gloves, safety personnel questioned many teams at FIM Howell district event. The main reason they stated was sharp edges and what not. I get their concern, but its not a rule. Our drive team does not use them anymore, some of them don't feel comfortable. Its a personal choice.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I am going to assume that this is an honest question (not a rhetorical one) and answer it as such.

No one, I assume, will be driving their robot in the pit like they drive it in a match. At a race track no one is allowed to be on or near the track when cars are racing, but they are allowed near the cars in the pits where speeds are slower and there are considerably fewer cars at any given time. The same should hold true for robots: go easy on driving in the pits, do as little as is needed, and do it reasonably safely and slowly.

No one is allowed to interact with a robot on the field for safety reasons as well as interference/performance reasons. The rules are the rules, and we have had games with significantly more human interaction (I'm specifically thinking of 2005 and 2014 where the human player was right next to the field with very little between them and the robot). I believe the rules this year are more of a design constraint than a safety concern.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Im sorry to hear that your dad was hit by a robot. I personally was hit by a robot last year and it hurt but I laughed it off. It was going full speed and I had a bruise on my thigh but I still would not want a rule to prevent people running robots on the floor of a competition. We built our first real robot cart this year and it does have pegs to lift the wheels but I still want to put it on the floor to test some things.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I don't think people have any problem with other functions being tested while the robot's on the floor (i.e. no one's getting mad at us for running our elevator when the robot's on the floor). The problem is robots driving when they're on the floor.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

With the tight quarters, heavy, elevated robots and many years with flying objects, I think we need to have a full set of rules enforced. Everyone inside the pits should be wearing bump caps (hard hats would be acceptable), have shirts tucked in, no jewelry (rings or otherwise), and steel-toed shoes with met-guards. The pits are an incredibly unorganized multi--function-shop-workspace that would be completely unacceptable in a real-world enviornment to OSHA or any other regulatory body, and we're so lightly scratching the surface of real-world safety standards that UL Safety Award is a joke. I'm surprised they're willing to put their name on the award.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Lol. Touché

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I am sorry, FIRST awards are not a joke, at least for us. If we are comparing the safety at FIRST events to industrial safety... they are like apple and oranges. The UL safety award represents the team that best represented the safety among all the teams competing at that event. This is not like a certification to the team.

Anyhow, when accidents do happen, the action was unintended. It could be due to many reasons, like bad piece of program or failure of a sensor etc. This is why we need to exercise safety.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

This post has made the most sense to me so far. It shows a thorough understanding of the hazards inherent in their robot and the countermeasures that minimize the probability of an accident and minimize the impact when an accident occurs. It is a lack of that understanding of the hazards that leads to preventable accidents.

This is supposed to be a "sport for the mind". Teams should be using their intelligence and creativity to create a culture of safety that employs good practices to adapt to the conditions as required rather than codifying very specific practices in "full sets of rules" that will be difficult to enforce as each year's game causes the hazards to change. The GDC has a hard enough job covering all the "holes" in the Game rules. How would one expect them to create rules that anticipate all the possible hazards, especially if there are so many teams that take creative approaches to the game? The Game Q&A is up to over 400 questions about the game. We would probably have to have a separate Safety Q&A each year if there are more rules regarding safety than there are now.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Thanks for making my point. You're simply picking a version of 'safety' that's a functional joke, and we aren't comparing apples and oranges. We're saying 'be safe', yet ignoring industry standards for safety - standards that will be enforced for every individual that goes into engineering fields and works in any sort of test facility.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I keep hearing people say in the "Real World" you do this and that. I work in the "real world" and at my company we have the bigger machine shop on the West Coast and in the Machine shop all you wear is pants closed toed shoes and safety glasses or even just regular reading glasses. In the "Real World" for most advanced machining shops you must be 18 years of age or older. The best way to be safe is to have some common sense. Think about what you are doing. You can try to be as safe as you want but there will be someone who doesn't think before they do there action. It's like measure twice cut once.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Common Sense is definitely agreeable. The unfortunate thing is that what's common sense for me, for an absolute beginner, for a complete novice, for Danger Dan, and for Evel Knievel, it's all completely different things... Problem more so if you have all of them working together.

We might need more Common Common Sense.

I really think that if teams are going to be moving their robots, they ought to at least let their neighbors know. That way, at least I know to move away if my own common sense tells me that I'll never be able to jump out of the way or save anyone else fast enough.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

For those who say that there is not enough practice space/time at a regional to test out autonomous driving routines, I agree. I feel your pain in trying to schedule a practice time on the field between matches. But that is something to be addressed separately, because I've not seen a 10' x 10' (or smaller) pit yet that will safely accommodate autonomous driving, human cordon or not. (With one hand, I applaud the efforts to try to make an unsafe practice safer, the other hand insists it would be better to eliminate the unsafe practice entirely, so I guess you get the sound of one hand clapping.) Unless your pit comes with rails similar to the practice or competition field to contain the robot...

Some have objected that they have to operate their robot on the floor, then proceed to describe non-driving actions. That's not what the OP was talking about. Most non-driving actions won't allow your robot to leave the pit. Removing the circuit breaker for the drive motors is an excellent compromise where carts or blocks are not practical.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Safety should be celebrated in the same way that excellence is celebrated. If everyone on your team during the build and competition season stays injury free and goes home in one piece every night, that is cause for celebration - regardless of how your robot performed, your team did it exactly right in the aspect that matters the most.

Because the alternative is much, much worse. No event or match or championship is worth risking injury to people. This is clearly evident because out of bounds and unsafe robots are disabled during matches.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Without putting the robot on the ground, it is not possible to fully test a robot mechanism that is designed for picking objects off the ground. Without putting the robot on the ground, it is extremely difficult to test closed-loop wheel speed or position software.

Putting robot wheels in contact with pit floors has legitimate uses. I believe a rule against it would go too far.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Yes, so put it on the floor of the practice field.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

BrendanB already posted why this isn't an acceptable solution.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Just out of curiosity, would you then consider this illegal too?


https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...type=2&theater

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Yes, but I still don't see why. I think people are sacrificing basic safeguards that are very important because of something that is more convenient.

Lift the wheels off the ground or perhaps just disconnect drive motors as someone suggested earlier. Lifting the wheels even half an inch above the ground resolves the issue and should still allow you to test your pick up mechanism. (i.e if you suck the tote up, then lay something underneath the tote so that it lays at the right height for the now slightly raised robot).

Are we all seriously saying there is no workaround? Convenience really trumps safety?

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

We do the same thing with the "kill zone." We also have rules that only the driver or operator control the robot in the pit. We also have a person on the disable button. As another precaution we have a button on our drive controller that must be pressed before any movement from the drivetrain can occur. This has proved very useful when practicing when programmers use a remote so nothing goes crazy. It also allows if by some chance somebody picks up the remote or drops it the robot will not just start moving.

We also place our robot on blocks when it is on the cart in the pit. (It stays on the cart 95% of the time in the pit.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Not unless it is turned on and enabled. Just like picking up a robot that is turned off doesn't violate the general "don't touch a live robot" rule.

Although I wouldn't recommend pushing something with your head. But hey, maybe their robot is very light and the team member is hard headed? :rolleyes:

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

So this is probably a bad idea...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa1lz-9cCRQ&t=98

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

And therein lies the rub. Many of us don't believe that to be the case. Many of us believe in the concept of acceptable risk.

You continue to return to the argument of 'but safety!'. A number of very experienced individuals have pointed out that there are any number of situations where a robot needs to be on the ground to test particular functions.

The 'but safety!' argument doesn't hold water with me. All too often it's applied in lieu of common sense.

It would be... entertaining... to try to tell the 600 teams attending worlds that they are not allowed to operate their robots any place accept the couple of practice fields provided.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

First the OP said that robots should be tested on blocks she never said there needs to be a rule about it. So for everyone who is saying no more safety rules calm down that is not the intention of the thread.

The intention was to bring a serious safety concern to the community and discuss ways to mitigate and perhaps even eliminate the hazard. If your team choses to accept the risk of running the robot on the floor then don't assume that others around you are accepting of that same risk. Respect others around you and stay within the confines of your pit.

And for those constantly countering safety with the term common sense as is often done on these forums.

Remember that although teams at each event have the ability to think and behave in a reasonable way and make good decisions (Common Sense). They are also often pressed with time constraints and unexpected problems. When this occurs shortcuts are often taken. All the OP is asking for is when testing the robot consider placing it on blocks when possible/disabling the drive in the manner of your choice. IF you must drive in the pit you are taking the shortcut of waiting for practice field time and your team may see that as an acceptable risk. Keep the robot in your pit by placing your own members in harms way not those around you who were not asked about accepting that risk.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Well I wouldn't encourage that either.

I wouldn't say that accurately describes how people feel in this thread and outside of this thread but I can't speak for everyone.

Believe me safety has its place in FRC. My overall underlying question is does safety always trump risk? Does every safety risk require more action compared to just acknowledging it exists, making everyone around you aware, asking yourself if you believe your team has done everything it can to do so safely, and exercising caution while carrying it out? Even just enabling your robot (on blocks drive enabled) poses as safety risk so that would become the next in line safety issue so to speak so how much longer before that gets taken away?

I'm fine with not being allowed to tether in the pits on the floor but like I said the current practice field standards are unacceptable and teams will always have a moment when the robot needs to be tested on the floor and potentially with the drive wheels operational. Until the practice field changes teams will still do what they need to so they can always put a robot on the field that will perform as it needs to which does requires troubleshooting in the pits.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

LOL I didn't think my argument was "but safety!" I thought it was more let's mitigate the risk by putting in a basic safeguard. Test it, sure. We test ours in the pits. But test it in such a way that it doesn't pose a serious risk to other teams in the pits.

I don't think having a robot hit men, women, and children in the pits is an acceptable risk. The severity is high and the likelihood is high and that seems unacceptable.

And as cliche as it is, common sense isn't so common. If it were, I wouldn't have had to start this thread based on previous incidents.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

As a team who puts the robot on the floor in the pits a lot this year, here's our advice: have an itchy trigger finger ready on the space bar.

Putting a robot on the floor is a necessity when tuning/tweaking/fixing the mechanism that interacts with the game piece. It does not matter the year, if the mechanism must pick up a game piece off of the floor then the robot must be on the floor for a proper test.

Personally I don't see a reason to change. If the robot acts erratically then space bar, reset and move on.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I don't think the issue is with testing a mechanism, but with the risk of the robot taking off and driving out of the pit area.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

There's no risk if your hand is on e-stop. That was the point.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

This entire argument is based on one's arbitrary definition of safety. If I see something as safe, then none of this applies to me. Likewise if I see something as unsafe, it all applies. The people arguing for stricter safety rules see every potential danger as unsafe, and that's their definition of the word, that's perfectly alright. The people who say such a change isn't needed see the same small potential dangers as acceptable, yet unlikely risks, and therefore view the whole thing as safe - that's their definition of the word, and likewise, that is perfectly alright.

There are clear safety hazards (such as launching frisbees into the air in the pits) that everyone can agree on as being unsafe. Anything we all agree on also happens to already be a rule (funny how that happens). The gray areas of ambiguity vary from team to team, and as such, I would suggest actions taken on these issues should be based on each individual team. As the age old saying goes, "You run your team, and I'll run mine, and we'll all be okay as long as nobody is hurting the other".

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

If a team has an autonomous program that could involve the robot moving fast or great distances, then they should not run this with wheels on the floor - but otherwise Alan points out there are legitimate reasons to put wheels on the floor to test.

The sacrificing of safety is not committed when a robot is run carefully with wheels on the floor - it is committed by carelessness and/or insufficient expectation of adverse possibilities.

And from my perspective, only a few respondents see this as a convenience VERSUS safety issue...the majority see that the current practice is not threatened by an unsafe condition.

As a team who has often needed to test something minor (like the effect of having gaffers tape from the field wrap around our drive pulleys) and unable to schedule the practice field - a rule prohibiting us from executing a quick safe drive test on the floor of the pit could be extremely detrimental. The focus should be on innovative ways to be safe - not hamstringing teams by onerous rules...don't let the problems dictate the solutions...let the solutions stand on their own.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Practice fields are sometimes backed up for days. It's completely impractical to expect every team to be able to just go to the practice field spontaneously whenever they have to do a simple test.

How about we don't outlaw perfectly acceptable, and necessary, practices because of a few foolish teams?

We, and many others, can't test our tote collection and lift systems without putting the robot on the ground. If you raise the robot the mechanisms don't work. We can disable our drive code. We always have someone hovering over the space bar to e-stop the robot. We could even unplug the speed controllers if we have to. We have safe practices, there's no need for blanket, overly broad rules that hinder teams' ability to do what they came to the regional to do.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

This goes back to my opinion on this whole thing, which is, do what you need to do, but do it carefully and safely... BUT if you are foolish and/or careless and your robot careens out of your pit and hurts someone, there should be strong consequences.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I made this point in a another topic.

If your robots are large and your game piece can fall/open into a larger area perhaps the venues should provide floor space not on the practice field to run such tests in a less cramped area than the pits.

Surely open floor space without a practice field would be easier to get.
I wouldn't think most teams would spend the entire competition to run these tests.

This year is a fine example. A robot not in the transport configuration can be pretty large. Especially if it's one of these tethered robots. It quickly gets to be an issue to fit a simple test into the pit area or even the walk area in front of your pit area.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Simple VI to decide if it is okay to enable a robot at competition (in the strict context of the initial topic).

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

[quote=Andrew Lawrence;1457319]This entire argument is based on one's arbitrary definition of safety. If I see something as safe, then none of this applies to me. Likewise if I see something as unsafe, it all applies. The people arguing for stricter safety rules see every potential danger as unsafe, and that's their definition of the word, that's perfectly alright. The people who say such a change isn't needed see the same small potential dangers as acceptable, yet unlikely risks, and therefore view the whole thing as safe - that's their definition of the word, and likewise, that is perfectly alright.

There are clear safety hazards (such as launching frisbees into the air in the pits) that everyone can agree on as being unsafe. Anything we all agree on also happens to already be a rule (funny how that happens). The gray areas of ambiguity vary from team to team, and as such, I would suggest actions taken on these issues should be based on each individual team. As the age old saying goes, "You run your team, and I'll run mine, and we'll all be okay as long as nobody is hurting the other".[/QUOTE]

Yes, but when you run your robot in the pit, lose control and hit a team member from ANOTHER team then all teams become concerned about how you run your team.

I guess I would just ask everyone to really, really think if there is another way you could test your robot without engaging the wheels (lift them off the ground or disconnect them).

This thread has shown that I am in the minority on the opinion that this is serious risk to teams. I hope there are no future incidents that prove me right.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

FWIW having a modular electronics system can easily solve this issue.
If you use powerpoles for connecting motors (which if you are using SRX/Victor SP motor controllers you should be) it's all a matter of unplugging them.
Tada, robot can be on floor and you shouldn't need four-five people around the driver station in case it decides to emancipate itself from the pit.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I think we all agree that running someone over with your robot is bad. I think most of agree that it is very bad. But I also think most of us believe that we have enough reasonable safeguards and procedures in place to make it a highly unlikely occurrence.

I myself have seen more people run into by robot carts than by robots being driven in a pit. I'm not about to suggest that we stop using carts.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

personally i think this is perfectly safe they got there safety glasses on :-)

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

i don't understand the serious risk part, its not that serious of a risk just control your robot which all drive teams are trained to do

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

[quote=robochick1319;1457350]it shouldn't matter how someone runs there team, if someone is all about winning that's fine with me, its only an issue when the parents and faculty disagree with how it being run

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I don't care how you run your team so long as the decisions you make for your team do not negatively impact my team (i.e. cause a serious safety risk).

You be you, let me be me, but let's all do it...safely? (rhyming not intended, I swear) :yikes:

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Generally I don't disagree with what you've said in this thread, and not even the semi-alarmist way you presented the context (but maybe I misread it since I was reading at work during a compile).

I would prefer proper e-stop training over imposing limitations, however. They (whoever they are) made e-stop the biggest button on the keyboard - it can't be missed if someone in the know is halfway paying attention. If that someone is by the laptop when the robot's enabled, then the risk is mitigated into negligibility.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

The point of this discussion (at least to me) is to explore ways of safely testing your robot. If everybody takes sufficient precautions so run away robots do not happen, then the powers that be will not need to make a rule against it. A couple of incidents and rules will happen.

As others have noted one basic safety rule is being sure the operator is ready to use the disable button the instant something unexpected happens.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Is this the only way to make the testing safe? Perhaps consider what FrankJ suggested. In Risk Management, we are taught to minimize the probability of a negative outcome AND minimize the impact of that negative outcome.

It must be recognized that the negative outcome is not the desired outcome when testing a mechanism and that it is only one of many possible outcomes, most of them positive. It must also be recognized that the negative outcome of testing a mechanism is often unforeseen. Totally denying the opportunity for that negative outcome to occur means that the team developing the mechanism does not have the chance to know about the negative outcome and so they will not find a way to mitigate it. Thus the hazard still exists. It has just been shifted to a different time and place.


While it is very undesirable for the negative outcomes of one team's actions to have an impact on other participants, it is also very undesirable when one or more teams perceives a threat and imposes extra restrictions on other participants who have a way of dealing with those threats. While a proposed rule may make sense when examined in isolation, it's value is diluted when added to an already long list of rules (how long is the Game Manual and the Game Q&Q now?) that participants are less and less likely to read the longer it gets. The risk of something bad happening then increases as you add more rules. There are questions asked on CD where the answers are in the Game Manual and require little or no interpretation or cross-referencing to other rules.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

You can also just pull the breakers for the motors (such as drive train) that you don't want to test.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I would imagine that it would be added to the Safety Manual and the Administration Manual since it would be a general FIRST rule and not game specific.

And if we are really talking about preparing kids for the "real world" industries, how many companies ignore significant safety hazards cause new rules would make "the manuals too long."

I am sure there are lots of teams who don't read the manuals as they are written now and that would be unlikely to change even if we did shorten them. TL;DR is a real thing after all. That is why (like other game and safety rules) it has be regularly discussed and enforced until it becomes as natural as wearing safety glasses.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I don't get this discussion.

Just don't let the wheels touch anything. Don't unplug your electrical components, don't stare at/rely on your e-stop, just get some 2x4s and put them under it.

If you don't want it to drive away don't let it!

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I just want to reiterate that it's impossible to properly test any floor pickup mechanism without the robot on the floor. There are times when wheels have to be on the ground. A number of good solutions have been proposed, including simply pulling breakers which is really even easier than propping a robot up.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

1. Fair point, but just build a wood platform for the tote/can to sit on.

2. Depending on your design geeting to a breaker may not be ideal for repeted tests. It also adds another chance for error. If someome put it back in the wrong spot or worse forgot to turn of the robot first, for example.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I think expecting teams to build structures to do basic tests with in their pit is a bit much, really. Making this "no wheels on ground" rule isn't worth putting that burden on teams when any number of much easier solutions will definitely prevent this problem (code, breakers, etc).

Getting the relative height of the 2x4s vs the platform correct is also tricky (2x4s must be taller than wheel ground clearance, platform has to be difference between two)

The PDB is supposed to be at least clearly visible anyway (R29) and should be somewhat accessible. If it isn't, then you can disable the drive in code, use the e-stop etc. In our case, we run through a pre-match systems check before queueing, which provides an opportunity to show this problem.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

"no wheels on ground" is an easy solution to the previously stated problem and is how we handle it, not a rule suggestion. I think driving on the floor in the pit is wrong. There is not enough space.

The idea of relying on code is fine but it doesn't remove the human error from the problem. The issue of a runaway robot would probably a software problem anyway. It also doesn't account for an electrical failure causing the problem.

The breaker is the next best in my opinion but it's to easy to pull out or replace the wrong one and is sill subject to a more catastrophic problem, albeit less likely.

Also if a team can't think up a simple plywood and 2x4 platform how did you build a robot with a pickup system?

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I think it's not so much a matter of not being able to make a simple platform, but rather it being much more time efficient to simply pull out the breakers. I agree that it would be highly unfortunate if one were to plug the breakers back into the wrong spot, but this can be easily managed by a bit of attentiveness and clear labeling of the ports on the PD board.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Pull your Andersons for each drive motor.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

That only works if you use a reusable connector between motors and the PDB. We (4080) do have Andersons between motors and Tallons so we can follow that advice. Some teams like to solder however.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

My only problem with that is that the safety system is susceptible to fail due to the same kind of mistake that would cause the problem it is there to prevent.

Programming & e-stop scenario: Team 9999 has just arrived to their regional on Saturday morning and is eager to test their auto which closes a gripper around a can and drives backwards with it. They orient the front of the robot facing the inside of the pit with can in place. The operator places the laptop on a chair behind the robot which is facing the isles. In the software there is a front panel button (Boolean labeled "Disable Drive?") that disables the output from the state machine to the robot drive vi. Unfortunately the programmer got the wires mixed such that when "Disable Drive?" is true the output from said state machine is sent to the drive vi instead of zero. Thus when the robot is enabled and successfully grabs a can the operator raising both hands in triumphant celebration just misses his laptop as the robot proceeds to back away with it and the can.

Breaker scenario: Simultaneously one pit over, team 9998 had a rough day yesterday. An old victor 888 gave out and they hastily replaced it with a gifted Tallon SR. They quickly prepare to power up the robot and upload code that initializes a Tallon instead of a Victor. A rookie student is ordered to pull out the breakers for the drive motors only and returns with 4 40 amp snap actions in his hand. With a glance at the PDB his Sr student is satisfied and orders the robot on. The robot then proceeds to take a nice long arc out of the pit directly into team 9999's runaway bot. What they hadn't realized is that yesterday they managed to hook up the Tallon's Motor +/- side into the PDB. Furthermore the rookie had removed two breakers for drive motors and two for the lift and not the one on the revered Tallon.

TLDR? yes. Unlikely to happen next to each other? Yes. Completely improbable on their own? Not even.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Again I agree that it is possible to happen, however the intent of my post, which in all fairness I didn't specify clearly, was that in the specific case of our team we found that this year removing breakers was a far more efficient alternative to making the aforementioned plywood/2x4 platform. This is both because we have a very visible and accessible PD board to verify that the correct breakers have been removed, as well as what I would like to think is a reasonably experienced pit crew who would not make such a mistake. I totally agree that the safest way for a team to test their mechanisms would be the construct a platform like you described, but when we compared the relative ease of removing breakers with proper attention and care with the time required to build such a platform, which would have to be built to accommodate and appropriately simulate the height difference between our wheels and our intake, we decided that the breaker method was far optimal. Again I agree that if there is any risk of the robot driving away due to code or electrical uncertainty it should be tested with the wheels off the ground, something our cart allows us to do, however we will put the robot on the ground with the appropriate breakers pulled out to test our intake system.

TLDR; We personally found the removing breaker method to work for us, but I agree that the wheels being propped up is a failsafe way of testing mechanisms.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Yet more large pieces of equipment in a crowded pit. Have you ever seen a robot launch it self off wooden blocks placed under it that contacted the wheels?


Disconnecting power sources (i.e. pulling breakers or fuses) is an accepted practice in the electrical/electronics industry.


My issue with the suggested rule (no wheels on the ground) is that it is specific to a particular risk and that there are more general precautions (keeping a clear "Kill Zone") that can be applied to this and other hazards without making the test condition so different that the results are invalid. In previous games, being struck by a game piece at a distance would have been a more likely hazard than being struck by the robot itself. The "canburglar" mechanisms used this year have a long reach and they could be a hazard whether the wheels were on the ground or not (or if the robot had no wheels, like Stretchy from Israel).

Keeping the safety rules simple and easy to understand and apply is real world industrial practice. The safest systems/environments are not the ones with "the best rules". They are the ones with effective rules that one can apply without referring to a manual when needing to apply the rule.

Keeping a clear kill zone is also a standard industrial practice, especially in a dynamic environment where all kinds of new things are tried in a shared space making it difficult to foresee all possible hazards. We keep at least 6 feet away from equipment we are not familiar with in our production test areas and our R&D labs. This type of environment also makes it difficult to make detailed safety rules since the next project (or next year's game) can present hazards that we have not encountered before.

In terms of preparing kids for the "real world", I would rather hire one who could think and devise a way to get the task done in a safe manner over one who just followed the rules since following the rules does not necessarily mean that one understands the logic and intent of the rules.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

There are a lot more safety issues in this scenario. It seems to me like you're fishing for a better way to promote a culture of safety for all teams, but wheels off the ground wouldn't solve anything for these two teams. These two hypothetical teams appear to have very little safety culture to begin with, and it starts with the adults being involved in the things that could hurt the kids or other teams.

For example ...

Lack of basic integration between hardware and software to ensure basic functionality works as-designed - Why is the team eager to test auto if they haven't performed even the basic tests for 'disable drive'?

Unchecked electrical modifications by a rookie student - really, teams do this? That's more likely to cause a robot to go up in smoke than it is to cause a runaway robot. That's also a massive liability for the adults on that rookie student's team. It doesn't mean the adult does the work or even directly oversees it - rather, the adult checks the system before power is put to it. This two-party check (not 'glance') system is SOP for any maintained industrial electrical system before power is turned on. The two teams have to consciously agree that the system is safe.

Testing a moving auto on the floor in the pits is a HUGE no-no. You're absolutely right - this should be off the floor - yet most teams with a safety culture already do this. Most teams with a safety culture also understand the futility of in-pit on-floor auto testing since the floor isn't the same as the carpeted field.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

[quote=robochick1319;1457350]
If anything the only way that we wouldn't test and run our robot in the pit is if we get 10 practice field. We are never going to solve the pits not being "safe". There so many things that could go wrong. Why would we take away from everyone else the ability test their bot because of 1 team? Your always going to get that 1 team/person who isn't being "Safe"

I'm going to propose our team making a platform with 2x4's in the front and a plywood platform in the back for the totes to sit. That way you can test your stacking mechanism on the floor. If my team agrees I'll build it today slap a vinyl number on it and bring it to the sbpli regional.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I commend your good intentions but good luck getting more than a few teams who would want to use it. I forsee that even if provided with said platform most teams wouldn't use it because of the simple fact that the platform you build for your robot won't suit theirs.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

What happens when a robot drives off of the platform? Or am I missing something?

The robots frame will be resting on the 2x4's not the wheels. It's OK dude.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Its a valid point and a safety concern as to why just throwing it on wood blocks isn't always as safe as it sounds. I've seen many robots tip off of wooden blocks when the robot appendages move and the CoG shifts.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

I am glad to see there are so many suggestions for safe bahavior, not just "its impossible" posts, or "it has to be this <insert your favorite> way" posts.

Let me share some of mine (team programming mentor):

Every time the code changes retest.

Because getting practice field time is difficult we try to make sure the change seems to work by running it first in Test Mode, On Blocks, in the Pit. Then test on the Practice field in teleop and autonomous.

Test mode is a wonderful thing, you can test just subsystems without messing with your full auto or teleop code. This makes initial testing easier and more safe by omitting drive or mechanism code that isn't being tested.

Never enable the robot if you aren't looking at it (this is sometimes tricky, but do it). While the robot is enabled everyone in the pit should be eyes on the robot.

Announce loud and clear that the robot is about to be enabled, in which mode, the expected behavior, and likely bad behavior to watch for.

Always have your hand on the E-Stop.

Always disable as soon as you can and before anyone approaches the robot who isn't involved directly in the testing.

Rings of team members shielding the area is needed to prevent passers by from wandering in, it doesn't stop the robot getting out.

While I love people coming to the pits to visit, they should not be there if the focus isn't on greeting visitors. If everyone is wrapped up in fixing and testing its better to have them return later.

If the wood blocks are wide enough it shouldn't tip over.

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

Okay, dude. That was not at all obvious from what you described.

It sounds as if you'll be making it available for any team to use, so how will it be general enough to work with any team's frame/wheel combination?

Re: Safety Issue: Robots Moving in Pits
 

This too. Heck, if something went wrong our robot would tip over, blocks or otherwise...

I've also seen wheels climb on top of blocks and drive off them. Blocks are not fool-proof.