Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

That is what I think a lot of teams are missing. At least in Texas I know that if any team walked up to 118, 148, 624, 1477, etc and asked for help building a can burgler on Thursday morning their pit would have 3-4 people in it with in minutes working towards that goal. Once a team is on your alliance you take a little more ownership of them and work with them to make themselves better but most of the time all a team has to do is ask and they will get plenty of cheesecake.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

I'd like to expand the example to future years too, since it seems we're debating FRC game policy.


Continuing the hypothetical, a top seeding team is able to build two separate robots that perfectly compliment each other for a particular game. They're able to engineer their 2nd robot so that it weighs under the withholding allowance, and that assembly with COTS components is very quick (such as, install robot controller here, speed controllers here, and these motors here, here and here and with this software your new robot is ready to go).

After qualification, they gift their 2nd robot to their 3rd alliance member, so that the 3rd alliance member competes in eliminations with a completely different robot than they did in qualifications. Does this follow the spirit of FRC?

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

No it doesn't. It seems like just about everyone agrees that is too far.

The same rule that outlaws the above shouldn't outlaw help.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

I guess what I should emphasize is that I would like to see a growth in resources available to all levels of teams starting at Day 1. Not necessarily that teams are doing it for the wrong reasons.
The care and compassion I see in the pits I just would like to hear about more throughout the entire year as this would be a reflection of good community health. Of course saying all this if Cheesecake theater becomes a thing I will be thoroughly upset...

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

The teams that are helping others the most in pits, are also likely helping others the most long term.

Everyone needs to get off their high horse, you can't demand others to help.

It's also comical to read in this thread posts from some claiming others should help more, help all teams, etc... The people making these posts have likely helped less teams in total, than some of the teams they are referring to have helped in a single season.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

I am pretty sure everyone would say no to that instance. But I think everyone is in agreement that completely altering a robot in elims to fit a strategy is bad; but in the same breathe, adding to a robot to increase its worth and capabilities in an elimination, or maybe even qualification, alliance is something FIRST has always been ok with, as long as the team getting the upgrades believe in them.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

I would argue that the 2nd example is very close to the 1st example.

What would make the 1st example OK in my mind is if the mentor team helps them build the robot throughout the entire competition ... not just at the end and after they've been picked. That is to say, the robot that gets picked before elimination is the same robot that is competing during elimination.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

Applying this ruling to software help is a nightmare...

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

Does the concept of 'Cheesecake' extend to other competition programs as well? I haven't been part of VA FTC in a while, but I wonder about other FTC and VRC competitions.

Personally I think 'cheesecake' is a bit too far - but I don't think it should be banned at the expense of loaning another team pre-assembled items, like a cylinder with fittings, or stock that has a few holes in it, etc. I'm all for showing teams how to fish rather than just giving them the fish. If we give the teams the necessary materials and help them built it themselves from scratch, then it's pretty much the same thing anyways while simultaneously being more like a mentorship rather than a competitive giveaway.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

By the strict letter of the Q&A. Maybe not if prefabbed parts where used. But remember First is more than a robot competition. Exceptions are made for corner cases. That would be one of them.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

Can I spotlight this entire post? Please?

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

No, that's outrageous.

I don't want to brag, but there is no way to make the point below without.

A few people from my team (kids, mentors, whatever) in 10 minutes can solve more problems for many teams than they can solve all weekend. This isn't because we're smarter, it's just a different culture. We live this stuff and spend a lot of time on it. The teams we pick often are just an afterschool program 10 hours a week. They just aren't on the same level as us.

But if you let us work with them for a two hour elims window... Fix their little problems, add features, help them see the world differently... It will change their team.

Why should that be illegal? Why shouldn't we be allowed to inspire and mentor the teams we work with on a more personal level than all 65 at the event? It's simply not possible to give all 65 teams that same experience, but it CERTAINLY means a lot to that one team.

Separately, we help all darn weekend with teams for all sorts of issues. We'd have done the same for the team before elims if they asked for it, but many don't.

This isn't always the case obviously, we have picked teams plenty of times in the past that knew their stuff. Even with them though we do whatever we can to raise their game while we're together.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

Sometimes...you cheesecake yourself. We sure had to at Alamo.....

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

Personally I volunteer at countless FTC events every year and work with 2 teams closely.
Cheescaking happens at the FTC level, but not as often and usually at higher level events, kind of like division champs for FTC.

Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams
 

Bold emphasis mine.

What I've been continuing to try and emphasize is that handing someone an arm with a hook at the end of it is NOT the inspirational, hard part about a cheesecake. That hook is good for the 2015 game and that game only. The part that will teach them to fish is how you integrate, how you implement, even on the fly. There is not a single team in FRC history who has taken their robot out of a bag/crate, put it on the field and stampeded the competition.

You need to Cheesecake yourself constantly. Showing someone else how to cheesecake IS how you teach them to fish, just in a condensed format where the time to iterate as expired.

#AlwaysBeCheesecaking