Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

I tell them it's kinda like a bunch of other non-contact competitive sports while waxing philosophy... golf, long jump, gymnastics, pole-vaulting, ring toss, javelin throw... You are trying to perform from a rehearsed routine and trying to achieve perfection... You are competing with yourself - it's like life, etc. etc.

I've said this same in other threads. This year is a tough sell for my sponsors and parents. The students get it, they build the robot, they have a competition to get ready for. They are ready to celebrate Robotics and Science and Engineering and GP with all of the other teams. It will be fun. But I also have to be able to sell it to their parents - so that they don't yank the students and put them into something else. I have to be able to sell it to my sponsors - most of these guys/gals get sports easy - I can sell them Frisbee, Basketball, Soccer, Nascar.

GDC has a tough job to do and they get beat up for it - it's a thankless job that is sometimes under-appreciated. And yes, it's my job to sell my team and to get "mo money" so that the team can continue to build robots, build leaders. I feel like I'm apologizing or just plain making excuses this year.

Look, it's a hard hill to climb to get people to understand FIRST - every single year. Some years, it's easier. I can just yell "Basketball" and eyes will light up rightaway.

It just feels like a bigger hill to climb this year.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

For those of you who don't like the game... well, I'll just say that my sympathy is limited. Maybe you'll like next year's game better. For those who say it isn't their favorite game... hey, I get that... we all have favorite games, but saying its not your favorite is a big difference from saying you don't like it.

Personally I love the fact that it has changed things up and allowed so many teams to try so many different ideas. It is a game that it is very easy for a low resource team to create a robot that can stack a few crates, while almost impossible for anyone to perfect it.

Okay, almost impossible for anyone but 1114 to perfect it. :-)

But then again, I liked Lunacy, too... because it was different. Everyone had to throw out everything we knew about building drivetrains for carpeted playing fields and start over.... from the slippery ground up.

In fact, while I have favorites (Aim High, for instance) I can't think of a single FRC game that I've experienced that I haven't enjoyed. I'd like to credit the GDC, but I think the credit should be shared between the GDC for having the idea, and the teams for making the idea into something awesome.

I do, however, find it interesting that the games that are the most different (Recycle Rush, Lunacy) are the ones that often receive the most criticism. I guess some folks just don't like change.

Jason

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

I feel this game is fine. It may not be the most intense game, but is that what FRC is all about? No. It's about students learning new concepts, having fun, and getting experience in science and technology. I, myself, have seen so many cool mechanisms, some that I know would not have come together if there were aspects in the game, such as: bumpers, defense, size restrictions, motor restrictions, etc.

However, I do see a large gap separating the higher team numbers (less-experienced) and the lower numbers (more experienced) than any other year. The lack of defense renders bare drive bases basically useless (disregarding herding totes and litter).

Despite the comments from fellow FIRSTers, this game has brought many cool aspects to the game, some that I wished were a reality for a while now. Hopefully we see some old game aspects come into play in future games, but I like new twists and turns the GDC gives us, giving us new problems to solve and overcome.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

This year's "game" is kinda like bowling or darts to me: once you're behind, you're screwed, unless the other alliance makes a mistake.

PS: I don't like those things.

PPS: I liked Lunacy.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

Who716,
What is your version of an ideal game? Please start a new thread and tell us.

Do you like Mario Kart? Are you a "blue-shell" kind of guy?

I hate blue shells.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

I agree. The point of FIRST is SOCIAL engineering, not technical engineering. It's to attract students who would never give STEM another look. When its exciting its successful.

This year after I've seen a good bot in a couple of matches, I'm done watching them, even 1114. I never got tired of watching 254 fly around the field last year (to our chagrin.) Being exceptionally good at repeating a routine does not make for a great sporting event.

And I make these posts about this year's game, in very specific ways, hoping that someone will notice. The GDC already responded to another thread about the "cheesecake" issue. I'm guessing they're reading and thinking about next year. But I completely understand that we playing the game that we are for this year.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

I once told them it's kinda like Russian Acrobatics Gymnastics - except that you've only practiced by yourself and you have not practiced with any of your partners. They got that I'm just joking...

Check out this super awesome Russian Acrobatic Gymnatics team though.
https://youtu.be/8LW0sioDcSo

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

I agree with your post.

I noted one important thing about your examples: ALL of them are individual sports--not a single one is a team sport. (Gymnastics is a made up team sport that's really individuals.) I think the problem is that these sports really don't have any interaction with other individuals in a direct way. That may be why this year's game isn't really ringing true.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

Wow, what an apt analogy.

I never understood that. Why would anyone try to lead the pack in MarioKart if you know you will always lead for 2 laps then get smoked by multiple blue shells at the end... Why would you make a mechanic that directly harms the top competitor? I enjoy the Bullets and Golden Mushrooms that let you catch up from the bottom more than the blue shell - especially if the guy who gets it is in 8th place; they'll likely never catch up to 1st anyway, yet the 1st place racer is now probably in 4th or 5th.

Why do we want to lower the ceiling rather than raise the floor?

Especially as we see the teams who are able to independently create and cap their own stacks seem to be doing better, the notion of the "alliance" seems to be lesser emphasized when compared with a "group of three teams each doing their own thing."

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

At the very least it's fun to point out that the new system was designed to fall in line more with "Olympic" sports scoring instead of a standings that was a variant of traditional team sports with this in mind:

Say what you will about it being hard to get a good top 8 in the past (classic Virginia 2013 when a top 8 robot scored zero points the entire tournament, save for foul points to the opponents) no one is watching downhill skiing September through February, they're watching the NFL. Baseball stadiums fill to the brim on cool weekend nights in the summer and no one is lining up to see a kayak slalom as often. March Madness is probably the greatest event in sports, and it's top-down single elimination chaos.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

I've always thought that one of the strengths of FRC as a competitive and spectator sport is its use of 2-minute rounds, which add intensity when the games are designed correctly; compare the average excitement of a match of Counter-Strike with one of Dota. Losing interactivity between alliances rather removes this intensity; might as well line up our robots and clock our stack times to determine seeding.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

We all have heard "It's not just about the robot" yes I get it and so do all of you...but what I think Dean, and everyone involved in First wants, is for everyone not to pick apart yet again "this years game"...it's about continually exciting these brilliant young minds to save the planet we all have abused and surely have pretty much destroyed. I truly count on these FRC First Team students to absolve us all of our sins. So its not a job...its a real reality that we encourage all these students to fix what the past has broken...give them every resource they need. They are our last hope. Ok, I will get off the soapbox now. :cool:

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

Huh.. I love blue shells! Hate bananas, though. I guess I'm bad at "Mario Kart". :rolleyes:

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

I think this game is quite exciting, at least from the perspective of a team member. I've really enjoyed the season so far since we're continuously iterating and improving our design. I like how we can purely focus on playing the game instead of making provisions for highly variable things like defense. On the other hand, it does feel more like a match of solitaire than it does an actual competition. However, there exist many non-interactive sports which are still exciting and easy to appreciate: Gymnastics, track and field, swimming, and so on. How many of us would argue that the 100m dash would be better if runners were allowed to trip each other?

Sometimes a game requires you to put aside things like opponent interaction. We would never have a game like Recycle Rush if defense was a major factor; the GDC would certainly be stifled for creativity if they only allowed games where robots could prevent each other from scoring. Sometimes defense allows for a grotesque imbalance between the effort required to create something and the effort required to destroy it. I'll take 2007 as an example: It was way too easy to shut down a really good team by simply getting in the way. I hate watching games where robots simply slam into each other and struggle to do anything exciting game-wise. This year's game has forced teams to build more than just a working drivebase. Recycle Rush is helping to raise the bar of general robot quality and has been encouraging teams to step up their game and think more about neat designs and strategies instead of impromptu tactics during a match.

I feel like we're going to see some very exciting matches in St. Louis this year. Instead of having to drag down the best teams via defense, teams must instead iterate and evolve in order to remain competitive. Teams are pushing the limits every single match, and to me that's exciting. I can really appreciate the amount of skill and precision that goes into crafting and executing the perfect match plan. I want to see two killer alliances face off on Einstein and have to be just *that* much better than the other in order to win. I want to see robots have to race to create their stacks just a few seconds faster because their opponents are just as evenly matched as they are.

In addition, I'm glad we have a game this year where few teams had the ability to recycle previous years' designs. I've been racking my brain the last 2.5 months to try and solve all of these brand new problems. I don't think I've ever had to think as hard over my last ten years in FIRST as I've had to this year. I suppose that's worth something.

Re: This year's "game" is a job, not a game
 

The blue shell in Mario Kart is precisely what allows for an okay driver/ Robot, to remain competitive. Defense when done well is a work of art. And it requires more skill and thought then just getting a turbo, to catch up to everyone. Defense being lost puts so many robots out of contention. But im sure your team probably hates defense being such a strong offense robot year in and year out.