Thank you GDC
 

(with apologies to Jimmy Fallon)
Thank you for listening to our concerns about bumpers.
Thank you for making all team numbers clear and visible.
Thank you for giving us a game that we can design aggressively for, without fear of damage from defenders.
Thank you for making mecanums relevant.
Thank you for providing a game that is easy to explain.
Thank you for creating a game that all skill levels can play.
Thank you for a game that has a strategy that changes weekly.
Thank you for responding to our concerns quickly and with transparency, through email, phone calls, team updates, and blogs.

Thank you for Recycle Rush.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Thank you for cheesecake.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

While I appreciate the transparency and updates from the GDC, are we playing the same "game"?

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Umm...are we playing the same game?

Re: Thank you GDC
 

I feel that taking out the element of robot on robot interaction takes out a large area of skill that would set teams apart from each other. Last year is a great example. If you had an amazing shooter that uses mecanums or another low-torque drive train, you probably had to account for defender-based robots and increase your skill level to a point where you're able to circle around defenders. This year it feels like the game is the type of game where "nobody loses" -- you no longer play against a team; the noodle agreement at the beginning of the season was a great example.

The game feels like something known in the MoBA gaming world as a "base race".

I also don't see how the strategy changes every week; it's always been "stack as many totes as you can and then put a recycling container on top of them". In the preseason, before rule clarifications, people had some fairly wonky ideas but now they've been deemed illegal.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

I think having the team numbers on the bumpers solved the clear and visible team numbers problem.

As someone who has been on both ends of heavy defense (putting defense on the other alliance and driving through said heavy defense) I would argue that it's usually driver skill, not design, that is the biggest factor in defense's success or failure. We had a ton of defense played on us in 2007, we were able to score anyway, which is one of the reasons we succeeded that year. But I think the merits of defense in FIRST games is just something that I will disagree with a lot of people on.

After trying to explain the new playoff system to veteran members and FIRST newcomers, I heartily disagree with your ease of explanation assessment. Not to mention the shear number of scoring options and combinations.

Yup, totally agree on this point. The response and transparency have been great this year, and was great last year as well. Not sure what that has to do with RR, but it's true none the less.

I'm a fan of the GDC, and I appreciate the work they do. I don't like the end result of that work this year, but I can still appreciate the difficulty and stress of the job.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

How many teams week 1 had a ramp? How many teams do you think we will see week 4 with ramps? How many alliances were rushing for the RCs on the step week 1? How many alliances do you think will be rushing for the RCs on the step at champs?

Yes, stacking totes as high as you can and topping them with a RC is the objective every week, you are correct. However, the flow of the match changes as the season progresses and teams get better. 2011, 2012, 2013. None of these years had the flow of the match change at the season progressed.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

This is just a trend of teams having unique ideas and then other teams implementing them.

Last year's competition was a great example. Almost no one in our region did a truss shot to the human player. By week 4, it became common. Almost no one had the idea of lining themselves up at the low goal and shooting into the high goal to prevent defense skewing shots. By week 4, it became common. Almost no one had the idea of a two ball autonomous. By week 4, it was commonplace for the better teams of the game to have a two-ball autonomous that implemented a form of vision tracking.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

You are correct, my apologizes for not thinking it through all the way. :)

Re: Thank you GDC
 

The most consistent complaint I've heard since 2009 was about the bumpers. The GDC abolished them, and I haven't seen a game with cleaner, more professional looking robots across the board.
Especially on webcasts, it was difficult at times to read numbers on bumpers. There is no doubt with this game's setup.
Teams have been liberated from the fear of robot mangling as a result of defensive play. There has been an explosion of creative, unique, elegant designs to play this game, and I believe many of these designs wouldn't have been considered if robots were being defended.
We've all got a set in our shops, whether we use them or not. Most of them collect dust; this year at least they were an option.
We put green things on gray things. What's tough about that?
For those that argue it's oversimplified, what about "We play soccer" or "We play basketball" when introducing past games?
While YMMV, I have yet to see a team field a robot that did not make a consistent offensive contribution to its alliance. In eleven years, I have NEVER seen that before. Once again, with the lifting of defensive play, teams were encouraged to actually PLAY THE GAME rather design to stop others from doing so.
Sure, this goes for all years, but that doesn't make it any less true for this year. The intricacy of the game has really developed, and we're only halfway through the regular season!
We had a direct encounter with HQ earlier in the year, and they responded with efficiency, grace and professionalism.

It's a new concept to this crowd, and unsurprisingly there is quite a bit of opposition to this game right now. I wonder how it will be a couple of years down the road, after we've seen it played at the highest level, and after some concepts that were tested here reappear in different iterations in future games.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

The teams aiming for Champs were already thinking about the RC rush on Day 1 of the build season. They just don't need to use them yet because of the huge disparity in technological abilities and resources across teams at regionals and districts. That's much different than having a new strategy emerge, like the truss HP pass, inbounder and midfielder roles last year.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

It didn't. Especially when the teams used, say, black on navy or black on burgundy. The white/white outline helped a little... if the team could make the bumper cover hold up (some teams... eh, not so much).

If that rule returns, I'm thinking that the GDC needs to require white numbers on red and on blue, no outlines.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

The best thing about this year has to be the lack of bumpers. I really hope it sticks. Making bumpers and bumper mounts was annually one of the most dreadful parts of our robot build.

I also enjoy the focus on mechanisms and the lack of defense this year. This year's game has allowed my team to take risks in design that we never would have in any previous game. I also like that our robot is not getting pinned down nor smacked into by others. To me, everything about this year was a welcome change.

From all of us at Team 696, THANK YOU GDC!

Now, for next year, can we get rid of the bag?

Re: Thank you GDC
 

My comments are in red.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Seriously read the first line of my signature.

Additionally, 1640 has not run mecanum any time in recent memory.

http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?title=DEWBOT_X
http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?title=DEWBOT_IX

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Ozuru,

1640 uses a Swerve Drive, not mecanum.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

My bad, I removed that section from my reply. Sorry, Canada. Thanks for the information.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

I do have to give the GDC credit - from a building a robot, mechanical design perspective, this is an awesome game. So much fun and creativity went into designing and building a robot this year.

I'm actually particularly pleased with the mecanum bit. Our mecanum drive gives us a distinct competitive advantage this year and I don't regret it at all. Are those words anyone ever thought I would be saying?

However:
I really think this is the worst year for not-top teams in recent memory. Not just the bottom, but the middle tier too. It's a function of the scoring, the 3x stack height for RCs in particular, and the near-worthlessness of one without the other. Forces teams to try to do everything, or accept mediocrity all season.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

I don't think they're any more visible than they were on bumpers. More numbers can be read on webcasts, but that is a function of more and more events creating HD webcasts. The numbers are still impossible to read at 360p on a full-field view.

In what way? Even your overly simplified answer (stacking grey on green) is more intricate and esoteric than overly simplified previous years (basketball, frisbee golf). This is among the worst games to explain that I can remember. The litter alone can be worth four different values (0, 1, 4, 6) after being entered on the field. Score multipliers aren't always immediately obvious to a casual observer, and I can't even imagine how the casual observers tried to grasp 330's 3 cans on 2 stack strategy. It's counter-intuitive to the uninitiated that stacked totes aren't worth any more than other totes. Co-op scoring is something without parallels in other sports. From an objective standpoint, there is simply far more going on to explain than any recent game. This isn't subject for debate, it's fact.

This is where I disagree with you the most. This is the worst game for lower skill levels in recent memory, and isn't particularly friendly to mid-tier teams. It's a difficult challenge, and there's no room to try and change the gameplan for the better teams. You simply can't beat an alliance that consistently scores more than yours. There are tons and tons of teams that do not contribute offensively. At no fewer than five events we've seen teams, including some high profile teams, that sat still in the playoffs because they posed more risk to their alliance than potential offensive contribution. If everyone could contribute, we wouldn't be having debates about the ethics of "cheesecaking" robots with ramps.


I don't see any more strategic change in the meta-game than the past few seasons.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

It's still possible to specialize and do well*. You can focus on capping stacks, get picked by a powerhouse, and go far. You can focus on the co-op points and rank high, relying on superior scouting to make a run in eliminations. You will be outclassed by teams that can "do it all", but is that any different from other years?

Along that line, this year, there are basically two ways to play the game, right? Each robot works on its own and builds its own stacks, or an alliance works together to build a few capped stacks. One shows two powerhouses working independently, and the other shows three specialists working on separate parts of the stacks. As of now, the individual strategy is winning, but it's pretty comparable to last year at this time (at least in MAR) - last year at this time, 3 assist cycles were losing to 2-assist cycles as I remember. SCH 2014 was won by a two-assist cycle. SCH 2015 was won by individual stackers. Eventually, three assist cycles came out ahead of 2 assist cycles, and I could see that happening again this year.


* It's still a massive engineering challenge and that is an element of this game that really has an impact on lower tier teams, but what I'm saying is that even in this game, you don't need to do it all to do well.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Yeah, actually. In other years, robots with less functionality could do better than robots with more features, if they were good enough at their specialized tasks. Doing everything would at least slightly compromise your effectiveness at tasks. Take 2013 - the World Champions were two human load only* cyclers that hung from the lowest rung on the bar, and a similar robot with a floor pickup for autonomous. 610 was one of the fastest cyclers in the world, 1241 was very accurate and consistent, and 1477 was flexible and played intelligently as the alliance needed. All kinds of robots had more features than this alliance.

At the very least, if lower functionality robots weren't *better*, they could compete with the best. One winner of the 2012 IRI had no ability to shoot a basketball in any goal other than the 1 point goal. Where's the role for that style of robot this year?

In this game, alliances of three specialists can work, and they certainly put up points, but they get crushed by alliances of two do-it-all robots, or even one do-it-all robot with a strong semi-specialist partner. It's an uphill battle to say the least.

*Ignore 1241's auxillary auto intake here, they didn't use it in their key matches.

(and I don't know what you're talking about with 3 assist cycles losing to 2, in 2014 - that was certainly not the norm across the country at all)

Re: Thank you GDC
 

My point was that 2 assist cycles were plenty viable against 3 assist cycles at this time in the game's development, and I've been looking through some old footage, and I really do see it. If we look at week 3 gameplay* in 2014, you can see 2 assist cycles trumping 3 assist cycles a bunch.

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MAR:
Both week 3 events saw only two-assist cycles in the finals.

Michigan:
Both week 3 events showing fewer assists beating more assists. In Howell, 469 & 67 beat a three assist cycle with two assists. In Escabana, 1023 ran single cycles in finals 1 and won by about the same margin (12 pts off) as they did with a 2 assist cycle in finals 2.

North Carolina:
900 was certainly running 2 assists, but we can fairly leave this out. 900 was a special case.

St. Louis (Regional):
All I saw were 2 assist cycles from the winning alliance. It seems they were trying for 3, but only got 2 assists.

New York Tech Valley:
I saw a whole lot of 2-assist action from the winning and finalist alliances. That was probably due to 1126 being broadsided a lot, but it still happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think we can all agree that later on in the season, 3 assist cycles became the dominant way to play the game, but in 2014 week 3 it sure wasn't universal. The same kind of development could happen to this game, with specialists coming to be more and more powerful as the season goes on.


* The whole reason for week 3 is because that's all we've seen so far with Recycle Rush.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

In the 2014 Curie Quaterfinals 4-1, we(135) and 1241 managed to outscore the other alliance with 2-assists, but we lost the match due to a penalty :(
Sadly, there is no match footage, so you'll just have to take my word for it. It was pretty amazing to see 2-assists still relevant that late in season.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Thank you for putting a hokey theme to this game.
Thank you for separating the two sides of the field.
Thank you for taking away wins and losses until the final matches.

Thank you for Recycle Rush, the largest FLL game ever.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Thank you for showing me that by eliminating every concern we had last year, we end up with a game that we like even less.
Bumpers, heavy defense, too few game pieces, etc.

Thank you for showing me that every game has its flaws, and that there will always be a group that suffers from that game.
Last year teams on alliances with robots that didn't move couldn't get assists, now we have the fact that 2 robots could win by themselves

Thank you for making me think about the real purpose of the games.
Is it an engineering challenge for those inside, or a way to draw people into STEM?

Thank you for making me think about what winning means to me
WLT was simple: you win or lose, and the other alliance loses or wins. With QA it could be either I want everyone to do their best, or I want everyone else to fail so we can win. I'm still not sure which one I prefer.

Thank you for showing me that despite all the changes, many things are still similar.
There's still a huge divide between top and average; still an issue of what most teams can do on the field; still qualification matches where many teams can't move, but elimination ones that are incredibly exciting; and still all the old arguments.

Thank you for making me rethink what I knew.
Change is here. This game has taught me how we deal with changes.

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Great post. It definitely made me give pause about this year's game, and how things have unfolded thus far.

Thank you GDC for essentially giving us exactly the game so many have wanted...

...as Rachel alluded to, you probably could've taken all the complaints anyone has ever had about every single FRC game prior, addressed them, and ended up with Recycle Rush.

Also, thank you GDC for not saying "I told you so!"

:o

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Re: Thank you GDC
 

^ Apt... because I still couldn't tell you how I feel about this game yet.

I don't think I've ever hit week 3 and still wasn't able to formulate an opinion.

I still think I could be easily swayed either way...

If CarNack was around, maybe he/she/it would've predicted this would be the most divisive game in FRC history?

Re: Thank you GDC
 

I just want to point out that a lot of Jimmy Fallon's thank you notes are sarcastic. So if you see any thank yous in this thread that you disagree with just assume the poster was being sarcastic. For example:

Re: Thank you GDC
 

Addressing our concerns about bumpers by entirely removing defense is like the NFL addressing concerns about helmet safety by playing 2 hand touch.