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-   -   Adding, removing, then adding a part (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135939)

Aaron (Awe-Sum) 19-03-2015 10:24
Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
This year, Team 4961 has a mechanism designed to grab RC's from the center step. However, this mechanism is preventing us from properly getting totes from the landfill.

My question is: can we add and remove the part at will during an event? If we are inspected with the mechanism are we allowed to remove it if we feel the need? Or will we need to be re-inspected every time we add/remove it?

CalTran 19-03-2015 10:27
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
If you initially inspect with all modular parts to your robot, provided all of this doesn't weigh in over 120lbs, and (maybe) prove all configurations are safe, you won't have to reinspect each time you want to change your robot.

Alternatively, yes, you can just reinspect each time. YMMV with the RI's when doing that though :)

Aaron (Awe-Sum) 19-03-2015 10:36
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Thanks ��

Taylor 19-03-2015 10:50
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Easy answer: just have it inspected in each configuration. As long as the sum of the configurable parts is not >120 lbs you're fine.

Tungrus 19-03-2015 10:59
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Every time you add or remove components, please get inspected. At FIM events inspectors keep tab of weight changes and not very pleased when they find out your weight has changed at the end of qualifications they have no record of it. Its not about how much has changed (as long as total weight is with in limit), rather its about process.

CalTran 19-03-2015 11:14
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tungrus (Post 1459783)
Every time you add or remove components, please get inspected. At FIM events inspectors keep tab of weight changes and not very pleased when they find out your weight has changed at the end of qualifications they have no record of it. Its not about how much has changed (as long as total weight is with in limit), rather its about process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R4
The ROBOT weight may not exceed 120 lbs. When determining weight, the basic ROBOT structure and all elements of all
additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together.
Unlike in recent FRC seasons, this 120 lb weight limit includes any optional bumpers on the ROBOT.
For the purposes of determining compliance with the weight limitations, the ROBOT battery and its associated half of the
Anderson cable quick connect/disconnect pair (including no more than 12 in. of cable per leg, the associated cable lugs,
connecting bolts, and insulation) are excluded.
If you weigh in with all components you intend on using, you don't have to go through the full re-inspection process every time.

Tungrus 19-03-2015 13:52
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Then one should make sure that no part/material from outside the pre-weighed stock is used. Or adding such parts does not exceed the 120 lbs limit.

FrankJ 19-03-2015 14:21
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
The rule is pretty clear.

Robot +sub system <120lb. Inspect once. change out as desired. Make sure the inspector is aware of the different configurations. Especially if you are adding/removing something conspicuous. Have him note on on the inspection form. For example our spare set of grippers was weighed with & inspected with the robot so we could use them without reinspection.

Robot +sub system > 120lb Reinspect every time unless subsystem is an identical direct replacement.

rich2202 20-03-2015 07:27
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tungrus (Post 1459783)
Every time you add or remove components, please get inspected. At FIM events inspectors keep tab of weight changes and not very pleased when they find out your weight has changed at the end of qualifications they have no record of it.
Gaining weight is the problem. RI's are more forgiving when loosing weight. In theory, in loosing weight, the robot can become unsafe. However, if you remove an arm, and your robot is still safe, most likely no one will complain.

Best to weigh with all the parts you want (assuming you can fit it all into the 120# limit), and when you are inspected, show all possible configurations to the RI. Then, you are free to use whichever of the configurations you want.

If all the variations do not fit into the 120# limit, then you need to reinspect whenever you add parts from what was not in the 120# set when you last weighed.

Tungrus 20-03-2015 07:56
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1459822)
The rule is pretty clear.

Robot +sub system <120lb. Inspect once. change out as desired. Make sure the inspector is aware of the different configurations. Especially if you are adding/removing something conspicuous. Have him note on on the inspection form. For example our spare set of grippers was weighed with & inspected with the robot so we could use them without reinspection.

Robot +sub system > 120lb Reinspect every time unless subsystem is an identical direct replacement.
I agree with this, and re-read the rules just to be clear. My initial comments were focused around the new parts team fabricates or uses a prefab part which was not weighed.

epylko 03-04-2015 10:38
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1459822)
The rule is pretty clear.

Robot +sub system <120lb. Inspect once. change out as desired. Make sure the inspector is aware of the different configurations. Especially if you are adding/removing something conspicuous. Have him note on on the inspection form. For example our spare set of grippers was weighed with & inspected with the robot so we could use them without reinspection.

Robot +sub system > 120lb Reinspect every time unless subsystem is an identical direct replacement.
According to our drive team, the rule is different here at Essex.

We have a ramp that we would potentially not use if 2 other alliance members needed to use the feed stations. The drive team is under the impression based on RI comments that the robot would have to be re-inspected if they unhooked the ramp from the robot and did not place the ramp on the field.

I pointed out rule T.10, section F to our drive team. If they are really concerned about the re-inspection they will get an official ruling. I would think the worst case scenario is get the robot inspected twice, once with the ramp and once without. I can't imagine the robot needs to be inspected every time the ramp is added/removed from the robot.

Or, it could just be their mis-understanding too :)

-Eric

Tungrus 03-04-2015 10:44
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1459822)
The rule is pretty clear.

Robot +sub system <120lb. Inspect once. change out as desired. Make sure the inspector is aware of the different configurations. Especially if you are adding/removing something conspicuous. Have him note on on the inspection form. For example our spare set of grippers was weighed with & inspected with the robot so we could use them without reinspection.

Robot +sub system > 120lb Reinspect every time unless subsystem is an identical direct replacement.
^^ see this ^^

Verified this rule after my initial response. However depending on LRI, it may be little different. I have seen inspectors asking how the weight changed from previous weight check, at FIM everytime robot is weighed they make a note of it. Even if the weight has gone down. My recommendation is always talk to inspector who is incharge of weighing machine.

Just to clarify, adding/changing mechanical parts does not require full robot inspection.

Richard Wallace 03-04-2015 10:56
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tungrus (Post 1465496)
..., adding/changing mechanical parts does not require full robot inspection.
Rule T10 governs this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2015 FRC Game Manual
T10
If a ROBOT is modified after it has passed its most recent Inspection, other than modifications listed in A through F, that ROBOT must be re-Inspected before the ROBOT is eligible to participate in a MATCH. If any of the exceptions listed below result in a significant change to the ROBOT’S size, weight, legality, or safety, the ROBOT must be re-Inspected. When in doubt, the Team should ask to be re-Inspected.
A. Addition, relocation, or removal of fasteners (e.g. cable ties, tape, and rivets)
B. Addition, relocation, or removal of labeling or marking
C. Revision of ROBOT code
D. A replacement of a COTS component with an identical COTS component
E. A replacement of a MECHANISM with an identical MECHANISM (size, weight, material)
F. Additions, removals, or reconfiguration of ROBOT with a subset of MECHANISMS already Inspected per T9
The rule also includes a Blue Box with six examples; these are definitely worth reading.

GeeTwo 03-04-2015 11:15
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epylko (Post 1465494)
According to our drive team, the rule is different here at Essex.

We have a ramp that we would potentially not use if 2 other alliance members needed to use the feed stations. The drive team is under the impression based on RI comments that the robot would have to be re-inspected if they unhooked the ramp from the robot and did not place the ramp on the field.

I pointed out rule T.10, section F to our drive team. If they are really concerned about the re-inspection they will get an official ruling. I would think the worst case scenario is get the robot inspected twice, once with the ramp and once without. I can't imagine the robot needs to be inspected every time the ramp is added/removed from the robot.

Or, it could just be their mis-understanding too :)

-Eric
If this really is a problem at Essex (shouldn't be, but should isn't always would), you could just include a mount for the ramp and tether on the robot that keeps it out of the way (e.g. in the transport configuration) and mount it there when you work the landfill, and place it on the floor when working the chute.

dawonn 03-04-2015 11:28
Re: Adding, removing, then adding a part
 
I was quite surprised by the inspectors at FiM Escanaba this year. They made announcements and passed out flyers to each team saying that every time a team added or removed a tethered ramp they would need to be reinspected or 'face serious consequences'.

We didnt use a ramp so it didnt affect us, but I was still rather erked that they were making other teams follow that impromptu rule when the written rules clearly allow for subsystems to be swapped so long at the total weight is under 120lbs and they were all inspected.

I do like that they are trying to monitor teams legality through the event rather than just once and done. I think they just took it one step too far at Escanaba....


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