Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

I have been part of Team 876 since I was a freshman in high school, now that I am done with being a student in the program I decided to mentor. Since I go to a nearby college it was no problem for me to log a fair number of hours working after school.
I was really involved as a senior in highschool, participating on chairmans, driveteam, lead programmer, and other small things. I tried to cut back as much as I could as a mentor, I attempted to leave as much driveteam comments to the drivecoach, Lead programmer is taken over by a student (he did fine, I provided examples and such). The main issue seems to be with scouting.

When I noticed that nobody had started any scouting prep by the end of week 1, I started investigating tablet solutions, at the end of week 2 (and with older mentor's approval) we had some cheap android tablets. There was still very little interaction from the students (even tough I offered). The scouting app I picked was WildRank (we had had issues with bluetooth the year before, the USB sync looked promising). There are very few accomplished programmers on 876 (kind of an elite group), So I took it upon myself to modify and tweak the app to my liking, (at the end of the season paper scouting had only come up once or twice).
The first event we scouted was mostly a disaster, this was almost all on me. The second event went very well, the data was complete, informative, and provided for some great picks for our planned strategy.
However, our team has historically used paper, after our second event there was a lot of talk of switching to paper for worlds. There is so much data to collect and analyze for worlds (with hundreds or individual robot appearances in matches and data on each of those matches). I was informed by some other (more senior) mentors that I may be stepping on the students toes at this point. The way I have the electronic scouting system at this point it is more powerful than ever. I am working on migrating the electronic scouting system into a few, very capable, student's hands. Regardless, paper is the way Team 876 will go at worlds unless I can convince the team otherwise.

So my question: As a mentor am I overstepping my bounds with the development of the scouting system? Should I let my team set themselves up for potential failure with paper (and no good way to tabulate the data like is available with the electronic)? Any other advice for a 1st/2nd year mentor?
From my viewpoint I was just filling a hole in Team 876 this year. I am not asking for anyone to tell me if I was/am in the wrong or right, but rather what is the appropriate course of action when I may have been a little too involved.

Thanks for reading/replying.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Coming from someone whose team switched from 95% paper scouting to 95% electronic scouting last year, I would say you're right when you say your team would be setting themselves up for failure through the use of paper scouting at St. Louis.

If so few students seem to be interested in seriously developing your scouting subteam, using paper in St. Louis will most likely result in lack of cohesive data and, as you stated, no good way to tabulate the data.

I think if you show your team why paper scouting may have been good in the past, but not so applicable this year (especially if your electronic system is as good as you say it is), you may be able to convince them to utilize the electronic system in St. Louis.

Showing them how easy it is to sort through and compile data collected electronically compared to data collected through paper scouting may also prove to them why electronic is better for your team.

As for overstepping your boundaries, I wouldn't say you'd be doing that by trying to convince them to use electronic scouting. You're trying to help the team in a manner that you know will work, and from what you say, it doesn't sound like you're shooting down any of the students' ideas to overhaul your scouting process either.

Getting the system into those students' hands before presenting your case for using tablets in St. Louis would also greatly increase your chance of convincing the senior mentors on your team. It would show how you really aren't trying to discourage any students from scouting, rather setting them up to improve tenfold compared to their previous method.

Even though you said there's very few accomplished programmers on your team, you could see if they'd be willing to help modify WildRank or help take on the task of creating your own system, ground up.

Conclusively, I say try your hardest to get electronic scouting implemented for St. Louis and get students involved with the system before appealing to any senior mentors regarding the issue.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

^ Thanks, one more thing I should clarify. It's not the senior mentors that have the issue with the electronic, it's a small (heavily influential) group of juniors and seniors.

Thanks again.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Then I would say it's even more important to get a group involved with the system prior to suggesting its use at St. Louis. The group of juniors and seniors might be more open to the idea if, for lack of a better term, their own kind were already involved.

Good luck to you. The difference between paper and electronic scouting in St. Louis can be huge depending on how you utilize the data, and judging from your post, it sounds like your team could benefit greatly if you were able to use tablet scouting.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Briefly:

1) I think that once any student on a FIRST team graduates, they should NOT be a mentor for the same team they were just on. I won't get into whether a college freshman should be a mentor or not (I think it depends on many factors). The transition from a student to a mentor is significant, but many (likely even most) of the teammates who knew you as a student will continue to see and treat you as such, even after you graduate. Unless you go away for a while, and then come back.

2) The role of a mentor is to provide guidance. Most teams that I have seen work through some level of consensus. It sounds like you saw a void, and you stepped in to fill that void, which is good. Now you need to convince a sufficient number of the rest of the team that it was a void that needed to be filled, and that your solution is the best option of those available.

Often this is easier for adults to do than students, because many people give more weight to the opinion of adults. Similarly, it is likely easier for someone who has been with the group for a while than for someone who is new to the group.


So my advice is:
- find a new team, where the people on the team will first meet and get to know you as a mentor, not as a student
- expect that in your first year, you will have to spend some time building up your reputation as a knowledgeable experienced contributor
- look for areas that you can step in and help out, and then do so
- after everyone who was a student on your team while you were a student on that team has graduated, consider going back to help out there, if you want

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

My team (and many others) still use paper scouting at regionals and at worlds without any major hiccups. The biggest thing you need to do is have an excel program ready to receive the data after each match. Depending on what type of scouting is needed for that year we usually have 6 scouts plus one person entering in the data. The paper is then put into accordion files. The downside to using paper is having to go back through the cards if you think data was entered incorrectly and the plus side is having the ability to go back through the cards if you want to look closer at a teams notes or if you think the data was entered incorrectly. I would be careful using your new scouting system without first testing it at an event. You would rather sift through a thousand scouting cards than have no data at all.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

When I say historically I mean historically, for us paper means just that; ONLY paper. At this point the tablet system (which worked flawlessly at Central Illinois) is better than an untested excel system(despite excel systems being relatively easy to set up). Does anyone have success with pure paper scouting in the past few years?

Thanks for the replies,
Skye

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Its a hard translation from student to mentor... if you were on the drive team, now if you go to a regional with your team, your going to be watching what you were doing and get a sense of loss. Also it becomes very difficult when it comes to out of state regionals and even championships... I was lucky that when my team went up to Troy, I was on spring break. If they went to championships, I wouldn't be able to afford it and lose the days at school. Its a difficult change, but remember, if you do go back and mentor, this is for the kids, so make sure your not getting too involved.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Keep in mind what it is that FRC is for. It's not for winning. It's not for building a freaking awesome robot. Not about being the best strategist or even being prepared for the game.

It's about getting students interested in engineering, science, media and business. Teaching them how what they learn in school can actually matter.

It is very hard for a lot of mentors (myself included) to not jump in and do things their way because it's faster, easier and better. I still spend lots of time outside of the team researching and doing calculations for ideas to share with the students. There are times when I get shot down for what I consider bad reasons, and early on I'll be honest it pissed me off.

I had to forcibly separate myself from the competition. Now I'm more focused on the students and getting them to think critically and work out problems. If they ask for it, I'll tell them how I might solve a particular problem or ideas/concepts they never had a chance to learn yet.

If they make a bad decision on how something should work, I let them try it and find out the hard way why it won't work. It often causes extra work for them and myself, but in the end they can learn and own it rather than be the underlings. What's awesome is that a few times the "stupid" idea they had actually worked and it blew my mind cause I didn't see it till it was done!

Right now I have a lot less stress and a ton less pride holding me back. We don't compete until next week and even if we fall dead last, I can honestly say now that I am very proud of what the team was able to do this year. I'm also excited for the season to be over so we can start preparing for next year.

I suggest not pushing the scouting system. Present it and give examples of why it will be better and leave it at that. If a few students want to try it then great, you'll have a great case study to show how it really is better. If they want paper, let them use paper and try not to take it personal. As you gain experience you'll have lots of other cool stuff to share with them.

I don't have any qualms about mentors doing any of the work. Sometimes it's necessary. What bugs me is when I see a mentor drilling holes with a student holding the other end and playing on their phone.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Back to the first question:
And the answer is: it depends. FIRST is quite vague on how involved mentors should be. Whether this development is out of bounds depends on whether the student members are up to doing this themselves, their level of intiative, the number of students available (generally more acceptable on a small team), and a variety of other factors. The biggest factors are the team's dynamics, policies, and traditions. If the team you're working with is more about building the students up through high expectations and empowerment, it may well be out of bounds. If the mentors on your team do significant portions of the design, fabrication, or programming, it is probably in bounds.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Only paper?! Oh boy, now that would be difficult. I say go with what you have tested.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Every team dynamic is different. You need to do what fits best for your team... and I would start by listening to the more experienced mentors on your own team. It's hard to make the transition from student to mentor, especially when it happens immediately. It's easy to be sucked back into the "student" role, as you have a bunch of friends on the team, and most of the students are probably closer in age to you than the other mentors.

Using my own team as an example, nothing gets done without student involvement. As a mentor group, we pushed the team to explore tablet scouting options this year. They embraced it in concept, but were slow to adopt and figure out how to make it work. As a mentor, I stepped in and helped them figure out the basics, by taking an off the shelf system developed by another local team and setting it up as an example. The metrics that were present on it were completely non-sensical, but having that example in place the students could see how it would operate at the event, I could walk them through the setup procedure, and then they could develop the actual metrics and set it up for themselves.

One of the hardest parts of being a mentor, in my opinion, is knowing when to step back. You may look at an issue, know how to solve it, and know that you could get it done quickly and easily... but also know that you need to hand it off to a student, coach them through it, and that it'll take 3 times as long and may not end up being what you had envisioned.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Coming right out of winning our first RCA and graduating, this is the hardest advice for me as an alumnus to hear. There's so much potential in the team right now that I feel like I can help come to fruition in the form of wide culture change in our state. The idea of dropping the team while there's so much to accomplish hurts.

At the same time, I don't know if I can be an effective mentor to a group that was so recently my team and my committee (I was the head of outreach). I've let a full year go by without a lot of advising, but now I definitely want to come back.

So I was wondering if there was any advice for getting around the original advice. How do you make your friends respect you as an authority figure to some extent and focus on guidance rather than providing the solutions?

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

I started mentoring my high school team the year after I graduated. While it may not work for some teams, I think it went without any major problems. I found that instead of working solely with my existing friends, who were seniors on the team at the time, working with the younger students who you may not know as well was a great way to start my mentorship. I ended up heading the electrical team and had two freshmen who I taught, and by the time state champs and worlds came around, they had the skills to keep their robot rolling when I couldn't be there.

It's hard to stop yourself from jumping in and finishing the robot yourself, but for me, it's incredibly rewarding when those younger students go through a season and really start to see themselves as a vital part to the team, and can voice their opinions to the veteran students and mentors.

As for not mentoring a team that you were a student on, I disagree. Some of the most helpful and passionate mentors I know have been with teams since their conception when they were in high school, and that drive continues to push their teams to do the best that they can. Of course, every team has their own dynamic, but I truly think that having those young college mentors help strengthen teams.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

Hey Skye, long time no see. We have a similar problem with our scouting. Our "lead" of scouting wants us to switch to paper or our old version of WildRank because we had a few issues with our new version at Central Illinois. We convinced them to let us keep using the new version by explaining how much harder and redundant it would be to remake what we have already done instead of making a few simple changes.

As for the mentor situation I believe it is helpful to have recently graduated students come back to help the team, so that the team can transition easier, but it is important that the help is limited so that when and if you are fully gone they can function without you. So no I do not believe you are over stepping your bounds by helping with the app. Scouting is not as essential as building a robot, so if you leave and they do not know how to update the app they can always fallback on paper. So they will not be screwed over. However if it was the same case with the robot software, if you were to leave the team they would have some problems.

So yes younger mentors have their place on a team but they need to make sure they are passing on their knowledge not just doing the work especially if it is directly involved with the robot.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

This is the most solid advice I see in this thread so far. Just this.

Every team is different.

You need to do what fits best for your team.

Listen to more experienced mentors: mentors need mentors too.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

IMHO: Building the Programming the robot is where Students should have a primary role, and Mentors should have a supervisory role.

Everything else, is whatever works for the team. For instance, We have all day Saturday meetings during build season. The parents make the lunch for the team. If Students should do everything, then they should make the lunch too.

To me, Scouting is very important, but if the Student's don't want to do it, then having a Mentor do it is fine.

In your case, you saw a hole (students not doing it), and filled the need. You mentioned: "very little interaction from the students (even tough I offered)." Did you "offer" or "recruit"? I can see during Build Season that everyone wants to be on the robot, and not doing other stuff.

Now that Build Season is over, Students have time to do other stuff, hence the interest in Scouting. You seem to be the Scouting Mentor, and it would be appropriate for you to now Supervise the effort.

I would tell the Students: Just like you would not redesign the robot for Champs, now is not the time to redesign the scouting system. You won't have the opportunity to test it in action before Champs. The system worked for the 2nd event, and they are free to improve it for Champs.

I don't think that would be "stepping on the student's toes". I think it is more giving them parameters for what they can do between now and Champs. If they want to design a whole new system and test it at a regional/district, then let them have at it. Short of that, it is not unreasonable to tell them they are stuck with what has been used. Improvements are fine. Redesign is not.

If you get guff from the Senior Mentors, ask them: If the students were trying to do something similar with the robot, would you let them do it? If not, then why isn't that "stepping on the Student's toes"?

Note: Going from Student to Mentor is similar to going from a worker to a manager. Your role now is to get the workers to do the work, and you step back and supervise/guide the activity.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

As far as the offer/recruit thing goes: I tried getting a few different students to help me with tablet setup, going over some minor android code (for the ones with some programming experience), and looking into how some calculations should be done. I had their attention for the day that I invited that person to help, they never showed continued interest so I didn't push it. when I was a student I was pot on committees I didn't want to be on, and I didn't do my best work when I didn't really want to help. The last thing I wanted was to stifle the students' fun and enthusiasm.

This is a great analogy, I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.

Thanks for the replies,
Skye

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

First of all, thank you for willing to mentor. It is not the easiest role to fill on a team, and wanting to jump back in as a mentor is very awesome to hear. I myself could not get rid of FIRST when I went to college and ended up starting/mentoring a FRC team in my junior year.

Maybe, maybe not. While I'm not the greatest fan of the "every team is different" answer, this is a difficult question to be definitive about without knowing fully your team's dynamic. I think you will have to answer this question yourself (or maybe my other answers will help you).

I will say the fact that you're asking this and thinking about it to me shows that you are likely to not overstep bounds or at least you will realize it. In my mind, a good sign of a good mentor.



The short answer to this is "kinda...".

Long answer, I personally am a big believer of learning to fail. Not only is the feeling of success after a failure more gratifying but what you can learn can be much deeper. I've got numerous examples including this task at work I'm taking a break from because I've spent 2 days on it....

However, not everyone takes failure well, and while failure has a lot to offer, success captivates better, ie. failure is boring, success is fricking awesome. It is a difficult line to maintain as a mentor.

In this situation, I personally would engage the students in a discussion, and go over pros/cons of both. Potentially, ask them about ones they may miss and ultimately let them choose.

Not sure if you've had a discussion, but I think that's the appropriate action here. If that's happened, and they've still decided. Then I would let them potentially fail.


In no particular order, and in my very very short time as a mentor:

- Transitioning: It sounds like you've matured to be a mentor, but it's really important to make a mental transition. Everyone stresses this and having recently kinda gone through this transition, I can't stress it enough. I will admit I haven't fully made the transition yet, as I'm still a die-hard 1403 fan.

- Be Someone to Lean On: On the note about failure, I've always felt that a mentor is someone to lean on. As a mentor, you can be more than just a supervisor or a technical database. You can be someone to lean on and someone to rely on. If and when a student you're mentoring fails, pick them up, make them laugh, do whatever it takes to get them back to working on the problem.

- Build Better People: FIRST offers soo many opportunities beyond and within just building a robot. Take advantage of that to mentor your students to become better people. Keep an eye on small things that you can change in order to help build better people. This is my end goal, and if it is yours as well, always remember it.

- Step Back: Actively seek to step back. While your goal is to mentor as much as possible, you can mentor a lot by knowing when to step back. A simple example, over the course of the last 6 weeks, I used to hold one of the wrenches as a student was tightening a bolt, now he can tighten a bolt completely by himself.

- Keep a WIDE open mind: Some students can come up with the craziest ideas, try them, or if you don't have time, make sure you remember it and try them when time is not an issue. You might be surprised when something goes much better than you played it out..which leads me to...

- Remember, you are a student as well: Regardless of your age, you are a student. I don't mean that you specifically as a college student. I mean, continue to learn. I've learned as much if not more as a mentor than as a student. I know a lot of things about real life now like whoa-money-can-run-out, and not getting in legal trouble and fill-up-gas-before-a-meeting. But seriously, take this as an opportunity to make yourself a better person. Reach out to more people, ask more questions like this, network like crazy at FIRST events.

Most importantly, don't forget.
- Have FUN! and embarrass the crap out of all your students, when they have to say you're their mentor. Get them to embarrass the crap out of themselves.


Thank you for willing to be conscious about this. It's a step in the right direction to be a mentor if these are the types of questions you are asking yourself.

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

One way I look at mentoring is to think "if I walk away after mentoring them on a project, will they be able to do this on their own?" More importantly, maybe "will they see the value of doing this?"

That said, I am not sure scouting is very well understood, especially with our freshmen and sophomores. I think an orientation to what it is and how it is used needs to be formally done every year, with a team decision on how to implement it (paper, program, or a combo of both.)

We made the mistake of trusting an app this year that didn't work well for us at competition. Thankfully, we brought our archaic paper system along as a backup.

On a personal level, I don't know where our team would be without our alumni mentors. You can do so much more than us old people, because it's more like peer pressure and they relate to you better. Thank you for all you are doing for your team!

Re: Advice for transition from student to mentor, too involved?
 

As I'm not a mentor I'm not going to comment too much on when people can go back to their previous teams.

Scouting wise, I would advise you stay away from paper at worlds. I've worked with our strategy department there twice before, and paper makes everything a hassle. Especially going through the data. We tried to do an excel database the second year, and it makes looking through the data a lot easier, but getting the data into it is a nightmare.

Ultimately though, even if your team is using paper I wouldn't advise drastically changing the way you scout for worlds. Everyone already knows what they need to do, and switching mediums now is just going to confuse your scouters.

Whatever you decide, don't make the decision yourself. Get the scouters together, and have a meeting. Maybe you can find out why they want to change and work together with them to improve your app. If the juniors and seniors aren't taking data, then I don't see why they should have input into the data collection system.

Whatever happens, good luck and I'll see you in St. Louis!