PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

After qualification matches concluded for the day at PNW District Championships, it was decided that there would be an exhibition match between the current top 6 seeded teams at the event. I thought it would be very cool of course to see this head-to-head match up between the best teams because it usually doesn't happen in randomly generated qualification matches. As much as I wanted to see this match, I thought it would be unfair of course to the other 57 teams competing at the event. The other teams did not receive this luxury of practicing an additional match. The match played was obviously not counted to the additional scores of the current top 6 teams. I also thought the teams received an additional benefit of being able to practice together and see which 'dummy' alliances worked well, and which didn't which could carry over into alliance selection tomorrow. I addressed my concern to Kevin Ross, the FRC PNW District Chairman, prior to the match and was told that everyone at the event had played close to over 48 matches and that one additional match wouldn't effect anything. I agreed the practice wouldn't effect other teams severely other than they got to practice together directly. That's to say I have never played with #### team in qualifications but got to practice with them during this exhibition match and we worked well together thus forming a bond that could be passed through to alliance selections. This exhibition match did not occur last year at the PNW District Championships and wondered why it occurred this year.

I just wanted to voice my concern as I thought I was cheated along with the other teams that did not get to practice with a potential alliance pick.

Here is a link to the exhibition match that was played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI3siLZ6br0

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

1318 and 1983 had enough practice this year, I doubt one match further confirmed their chemistry.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I was watching this match on the webcast with mixed feelings. I agree with your point that this exhibition match amoung the top teams could mess with alliance selection Ie canburgulars could be valued more because it benefited the blue alliance. Also this match was an additional benefit of ranking well that was not specified that in the manual so its quite the grey area. I was an awesome match to behold but the precedent really isnt a great one to set.

Ps who made the call to mske the match happen?

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I believe his name is Kevin Ross, the founding chairman of Washington FIRST Robotics.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

This is similar to the matches that the HOF teams ran at Worlds last year for The Weather Channel.

Those teams got more practice, worked with each other for potential elims, and it was FIRST approved. The precedent is already there.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

That was a great idea! Thanks for sharing the video link.

I hope this can be done at other events... the elimination format doesn't always allow the top teams a chance to play together.

It was very kind of the top six teams to take part in an exhibition match that presents the possibility of additional wear and tear and potential damage to their machines, just for the entertainment of those watching.

It seems fair and reasonable to take the top six teams for this match. I'd suggest that if you feel this offers a significant advantage to those teams then you should make plans to be amongst the top six at the end of day one next year.

Apparently there are advantages to being amongst the top eight at the end of qualification, too.

Jason

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Call me a stick in the mud, or say that it doesn't matter, but to be completely honest, I would not like if this happened at my event.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Stick in the mud...

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I like it, and think it would be cool to see at our events (whether or not we're in the top seeded six).

Robots are fun to play with and watch, so exhibition matches are awesome in my opinion. You can make a point that it's unfair that these teams get to (have to?) run their robot through an additional match before playoffs, but I think the scheduling gods already do a good enough job of making the matchups unfair.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Why couldn't the match have been played after playoff matches concluded? Why have it in the middle of qualification matches?

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

A few rebuttals.

1. This isnt Aerial Assault. Wear and tear on well constructed, well driven robots is fairly minimal. If you don't drop stacks on your robot, your robot will be fine.

2. I dont suggest that this gives those teams a significant competitive advantage but there certainly is some advantage in an "elims dry run" with two teams that you might have the ability to pick.

3. There are advantages of being in the top 8 at the end of qual rounds. The picking procedure is clearly outlined in the game manual so everyone knows how it will play out. I wasnt personally there so I dont know when or how teams we notified about the exhibition match but it certainly doesn't seem like it was anything formal.

4. Its interesting that you say there are advantages for the top 8 at end of qual matches seeing that this exhibition match was in the middle of qual matches. In theory all of these teams could have horrible qual matches tomorrow, they probably wont though cause they're good :), and drop out of the top 6. Should the new top 6 at the end of quals get an exhibition match as well?

5. This leads to my final point why I dont appreciate the notion behind an exhibition match of the top seeded teams; It is an arbitrary bonus awarded to these teams that is not governed by the manual. Giving arbitrary bonuses and arbitrary penalties to teams is unfair imo because we all teams should know what to expect at competitions by reading the manual and updates or else we have lost uniformity as it regards to the rules.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I don't know if I "agree" with the exhibition match concept or not. I don't think it really bothers me at all either way.

My team was one of the teams that played.... Competitively, it did not help us one bit: We were on an alliance with two robots that effectively do exactly what we do and have the same limitations. Frankly, I don't think we'd even choose one another if we were allied.... Due to those limitations, we agreed to pick up an RC and go to the landfill - something we have never done or even practiced.... We also put in our backup drive team - students who had not competed at all this weekend... We gained no competitive advantage.

As for wear and tear - we've taken a lot of damage during matches this year. The risk is still there - though we were really careful not to harm our bots. My only concern is that the alliances were randomly configured and, though the "strengths" of the robots was reasonably comparable, one side had a wider range of abilities and complemented one-another so much better than the other that the "result" was a foregone conclusion.

I wasn't a huge fan of this either. No, it doesn't give the alliances a competitive advantage, but I still think it's unfair for the rest of the teams. I think I just stand on principle.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Personally, I concede all the points risen about this being a potential unwritten advantage in alliance selection for high ranking teams. BUT, I think there is a lot of value in an exhibition match for spectators. With everyone in the stands for awards ceremonies, the exhibition match generated a lot of hype and enthusiasm and it helped break up the usual monotony of recycle rush.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

See, I always thought the twinned regionals (ie. GTREast/West when they were in the same venue, a couple in MN and a few others over the years) should have had a Exhibition match of the winning alliance from both regionals to crown an ultimate winner. I don't think people would decry that as unfair.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I wish more events (specifically District Championships due to the high level of play on the field even more so than most Championship divisions) would consider playing a special match like this.

It was a cool match to watch and while yes some teams are getting additional "practice time" this is something you really can't eliminate in FRC to completely make the playing field even. At the Championship full practice matches are run in the pits and I know last year many teams were working together to schedule matches at the same time so they could spent 6-8 minutes of teleop match time (I believe those matches were longer than normal) practicing complicated maneuvers they wanted to pull off during qualification matches.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

IIRC MN has done that in the past.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

If you want to talk about unfair advantages in FRC I'm surprised no one has brought up alliance selections at the Championship this year being moved to first thing on Saturday morning at 7:30am and qualification matches ending tentatively at 6pm on Friday. With Elimination rounds starting at 9am this gives the first seed in each division a huge advantage over the rest of the playing field because they have all of Friday night and first thing Saturday morning to plan with their first pick for strategy, third picks, and potential elimination cheesecakes and have more time to pull it all off since they don't play until the 4th quarterfinal matchup. Everyone else has 30 minutes at best before they need to be on the field or in the que line for their first match.

I know the FRC playing field can never be even and that it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to make it to the number 1 spot in your division, but I feel like this year there is an unfair advantage given to that alliance that shouldn't be there.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Huh. Right you are. I guess that is a situation few have considered. I mean, in the past, it would have been difficult to predict who was going to seed number 1 (well, with a few notable exceptions), but the teams who are routinely at the top generally have plans for that anyway, and often know what to expect.

Does this give them a few extra hours to think about it and make plans -- and at CMP potentially get practice field matches together? I guess it does.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Where is this happening at? Almost all of the events i have watched did nothing like that...

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

It hasn't because the Championship in St. Louis is moving to a new format to allow for 8 divisional elimination rounds and an 8 alliance Einstein Finals after lunch (when eliminations would have normally started).

This is the first time, at least to my knowledge, of an event running this type of format (alliance selections first thing on Saturday morning).

During some years this typically isn't an issue however with modifying robots for ramps and canburglers this year it creates a new dynamic like we only saw a little of in 2011 (minibots) & 2013 (blockers).

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Hmmm, someone actually put into practice what I would have liked to have witnessed at Las Vegas last week. I guess if not in the actual match, one could think extra practice could make a bit more perfect (or better). But, those Alliances have a snow balls chance in a bad place of actually getting together for playoffs, so each just received a couple minutes of practice at the expense of others, and also did actually take more damage risks also.

I can see the points of both pro & con, and both angles to any extra matches during the show, instead of after the show. (I would have placed that match after personally, taken the extra 10 minutes there).

It does show off the real strengths of your regional or division event though. Just looking at the PNW Championships scoring this weekend vs. any Regional on the schedule...Once you "separate the wheat from the chaff" so to speak, the Qualifying there, actually looks like the Playoffs, at any Regional it appears. (Can't wait to see if the natural increase & jump in scores acheived in the playoffs remains the same, or if they just transfer equally in that particular event later today).

What does that do except pump up the OPR's of those involved (more natural inflation of the fields involved), just proving "If you don't actually witness w/ your eyes" your robot scouting this year, the numbers won't show you what is real, from what is actually inflated by the best of the lot, or deflated by the least of the lot also.

_______________
Then I watched the video...Qualifyers 135 vs. 246 just gave them each more practice, it did not necessarily show the real possible strengths. 123 vs 456 may just have if all were complementary bots to one another. The 2 can burglars had that match won w/ 126 left on the clock....Both Alliances can stack beautifully. Now, mix up the 2 can burglars 1 for each side, or 2 vs 2, and lets see the scores of both sides soar into that 200 point range. It just shows that you need to not allow either side an uneven advantage in those stack multiplyers. (Or grab it really quickly). The can wars (7 vs. 3 is very off balanced), will be won by the best and fastest at Champs. (But, I suspect those wars may be mighty costly also sometimes!)

It does prove, that if not an accurate and often winning can burglar yourselves, and qualified #1, that you better take one as your first pick in the choices dept., and it better also be a great stacker too! If you wait, the best of the best can burglars may be gone by the time your second pick rolls around. (So, that gives an edge to those that designed to steal well those cans from the beginning, or cheesecaked for shelf can accuracy later!)

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

The difference is this is an offical rule that all teams know about before the event. All teams know there is a sizable advantage to seeding #1 and can make the necessary decisions now. (Plus, with the serpentine alliance selection, I'm find with giving the #1 seed an additional advantage).

I do agree there is an unfair advantage to the type of exhibition at the PNW championship. The fun exhibition could have an affect on the actual competition. That being said, I'm not sure the negatives outweigh the positives.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

We do this in Duluth every year, and it's always a fantastic match. We don't do it in Minneapolis for a variety of reasons.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

No fun allowed.

254's exhibition match at cmp last year clearly gave them the practice they needed to win last year, it made all the difference... /s

You can complain about every opportunity any other person/team gets, or you can work harder to better yourself, your choice.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

If you have attended the practice sessions the day before competition you know that the top teams already practice together, often in multiple matches. They usually have their robots ready earlier so they can get to the practice field early. Adding one more match (which might break their robot) has no real effect on creating an advantage.

As to the Champs drafts, go ahead and game it out the night before. In 2013 we could have been anywhere between 1 and 6 the next day. We gamed out all of the scenarios. Its a very useful instructive process for how to make decisions under uncertainty. FRC is about more than just building robots.

What about teams that play surrogate matches? That's an extra match played by only a few teams.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Would you mind going into the reasons? I would have loved to see 525 and 2502 go up against Wave.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I just think it was unfair that all the canburglaring teams were on one side

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Sorry, I'm new here, I don't get why this is an issue. Are you saying that seeds 2-15 are not coming to the selection with their lists of first picks, third picks, etc? From what I've seen at regional events these teams are set after an hour, some show up with multiple sheets of paper. It's been years since I've been to an event where the captain goes Ummm "1511, oh wait they've been picked, Ummm 327 Oh, sorry they are the seed that just picked, wait ....."

If anything I feel bad for the scouting teams, they will be playing What If all night instead of getting some sleep. I expect everyone will show up with huge decision trees of choices.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

The first, and oftentimes second and third captains will know who their first robots will be before alliance selection happens, wheras 4 through 8 don't have that luxury. In the traditional lunchtime alliance selection format it's not a huge advantage since it's not much extra time, but since allaince selections are first thing Saturday morning the top seeds are given a massive advantage in planning match strategy and especially in planning subsequent picks. It would probably even make sense for them to do their scouting meetings Friday night together, while the lower seeds can't since they won't know who they'll be playing with.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I believe this was unintentional, it looked like they used who was at the time seeds 1, 3, 5 vs. 2, 4, 6

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

OK, so lets try an easy example

Seed TEAM number
1 1001
2 1002
3 1003
4 1004
5 1005 <Me
6 1006
7 1007
8 1008
9 1009
10 1011
etc.

I know that I can't pick 1001-1004, they are ahead of me. So I focus down list. I can make my pick list from 1006 down and have it.

I think you are implying that 1001 and 1002 can go to teams 2001 and 3001 and say, "we want you", we want to cheesecake you BEFORE the selection, and have them plot and plan from there. I can do the same, I say, hey 4001, I'm the 5th seed, if you don't get picked I want you. If I hear from you tonight, thats great. I can then go to 4003 and say hey, you are second on my first pick list and so on. All you need to do is rank your alliance partners in order and go. It's only a list of 24 teams, it really can't be that hard to bubble them up.

It's an offensive game with no defense, so you are putting together the best alliance you can find.

The only difference is that lunch is 12 hours long.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

These exhibition matches are a great way to boost publicity and show off the best that first has to offer. There are enough practice matches that go unfilled that I don't really have any sympathy for the "they get more practice" argument. Raise the floor don't lower the ceiling.

I want to see the best of the best across all the fields at champs do a practice match with each other. That would be great. Just make sure it gets properly recorded.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Sweet match. 'nuff said.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

You do have some good points that are true: every team should have a game plan for alliance selections whether they are 1st or 75th. Everyone needs to be prepared however everything is just big question marks until the alliance selection process begins and the first alliance is formed and starts establishing how the rest of the picks will go down.

The problem is once you get the ability to guarantee you fate/position you can start collaborating to make better, smarter decisions. Usually this involves collaboration on third picks (fourth at champs) and this year we see the large issue of the Can Arms Race in addition to modifying/constructing ramps/can arms on third pick robots for better results. None of this is wrong since if you have the desire to win you need to take every possible road. The issue is only one team on your division has the answer key: #1. There are countless times when no one on the field (even the first pick) knows what's going on because many teams prefer to keep their cards close and especially want to see how Saturday morning shakes out in case of last second breakdowns/breakout performances or potential matches that determine the outcome. Other times when #1 firmly decides who their first pick is and their seeding is solidified they start collaborating. While the argument can be made that this really doesn't change much since #1 has always had this privileged this year it tips the scales a little too much this season with cheesecaking and scheduling move by FIRST.

Yes teams will be tossing and turning all night long wondering what the fate of the morning will bring however it won't be the #1 seeded team and first pick. They'll be working hard to figure out a strong third/fourth round teams and how they can most effectively & efficiently modify them to be on their alliance.

My apologies for derailing this thread these were just some of my thoughts. You can't win an event or the championship without hard work, dedication, practice, and countless hours of preparation. At the event all teams should have the ability to compete fairly and consistently regardless of rank. Its just another nuance of the game that makes the gap between the top tier and lower tier further.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

1. It was amazing to watch. From what I've experienced trying to explain to new members what FRC is, showing them what the best teams can do is far more interesting and exciting than showing an average match. It'd have been really exciting to watch at SVR, but as we had qualification match 88 I can't really complain.

2. Is it really going to change anything? The top 6 teams get to the top through practice, and very, very rarely will an additional 2 min 30 sec on the field give them an advantage beyond what they had before getting to the event. However, it was very nice of them to be willing to play an additional match instead of spending the time making adjustments to their robot.

It was exciting. It was inspiring. If everyone playing was willing to play, why shouldn't it be allowed?

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I enjoy the Double DECCer match (Duluth) and would like to see it in Minneapolis.

While I'm not privy to the reason for no final exhibition match in Minneapolis, I'll guess that it's related to the venue arrangement. In Duluth, the fields are in the same arena, separated by a curtain. In Minneapolis, they're in different buildings. While they're across the street from each other, the ramp entrances used by the robots are about four blocks apart, separated by a street that carries probably 20,000 cars a day.

Attachment 18777Attachment 18778

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I don't have a problem with the exhibition match because it's a district championship event. Every team there has played at least 24 matches already this season, most of them more because of eliminations. I don't think one extra match gives them enough of an advantage to outweigh the fun of that match at the end of the day. However, if this is at a large regional with 8-9 matches per team, I wouldn't be a fan because some teams will only attend that event.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Pretty much exactly what I would have said. I don't know what the reasons are, but I know that for the most part the regional planning committee in MN is pretty darn smart about how they do things and if they aren't doing this they must have several strong reasons not to.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

I just wanted them to make alliances built to score the most points possible, as opposed to just the top 6. But then you get into issues of "well they were ranked 3rd but you didn't put them in obviously favoritism is at work here"

urrgh the OP alliance of Skunks, 4488 and 2471 will never happen now :(

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

There are lots of teams and combinations that would have been a blast to play with. Maybe some more Washington teams would consider driving down to Oregon for Girls Gen in the post season? Otherwise, hopefully we all play some more together at worlds :)

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

To be honest, I don't recall a Champs where our scout team wasn't up all night playing what if. This might make it easier because you don't have the factor of "what if someone breaks down or gets significantly better Saturday morning?" in your discussions.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

At the end of GTR East and West in 2011 I speculated a exhibition match between the winning alliances but neither was very interested in the idea.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Or you can simultaneously work to improve yourself and level the playing field for all competitors.

Re: PNW Exhibition Match Concerns
 

Man, the production value and energy level at PNW Champs was insane! I wish I could have seen the webcast.