Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Another idea that would be a pain in the ___ to implement but would be nice (a refinement on one of my prior ideas)

Make playoffs "best score" based, per level of playoff (minus finals). So only one's best score plays in. Like in track/field events. Also add a rule to prevent sandbagging after cinching an advance (to prevent a crowd displeasing 3v0 match). Or perhaps make the final score the average, but the best score counting as 3 matches (so for three matches in semis, it would be (3rd+2nd+3x1st)/5 ).

But yeah, a pain to implement w/o manually tweaking scores in match review or modding FMS (being a scorekeeper at 5 events this year, I can tell you neither option is feasible)... so this is more philosophy than practicals.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I was going to suggest this.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Set up last years game and tell people to bring last years robots.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Get rid of tethered ramps, or anything else tethered.

Add 12 more totes in the feeder station for each alliance.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Not a fan of 148?

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

More than anything else in this game, the biggest problem with it in my opinion is how the elims structure leaves no margin for error.

In the quarters and semi-finals, drop the lowest score from each average calculation. So, best match in quarters counts, best two in semis counts. There's some cool benefits to not having win / loss / tie before the finals, and this doesn't get rid of those, but it does get rid of the one-mistake-and-you're-out nature of elims.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I completely agree, it happened to my team and it is happened to many others.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Allow stacks to be able to rest on tethers or noodles, and count them as fully supported by the scoring platform so they can score.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

How about if one robot starts a stack with a yellow tote and another robot stacks grey totes, the tote stack value is doubled. Of course this is less useful for IRI (see the quality at PNWDC and INDC), but it gives a role to the 3rd robot.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I know it has been said several times, but I'm just quoting this one

This isn't fair to the robots that are designed to cap six stacks rather than put totes beneath a stack.
Im pretty sure 1114, 254, 148 at least are incapable of capping stacks higher than 6 and I'm pretty sure most people's stabilizing systems break down if a 7th tote is introduced

The changes should be about benefiting the field as a whole, not just 3 or 4 robots.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

The clearest change is to eliminate litter points aside from scoring in RCs, and perhaps penalize them crossing the step. Maybe even eliminate litter altogether, but I think removing these incentives to throw them across the field is sufficient. As mentioned, banning entry over the wall eliminates some of the best ways to score them in/on RCs. Another possibility is to allow over-the-wall entry in all of teleop (one less thing for refs to watch).

I also get the suggestion to skip rules concerning the alliance station, since this is another thing keeping refs needlessly busy. Removing the chute door is intriguing as well, but seems a bit extreme, and perhaps unsafe.

I like the limits imposed by the upside down totes and the small number of RCs, in fact I find these to be integral components of the challenge. Making sure the rules don't discourage going for the extra RCs (within the bounds of safety) will make the high level matches that require these RCs very exciting - at the very least for the first few seconds, and then also to see if the alliance can really pull off that many stacks.

Auto totes however, are kind of a pain after auto. I'd also say eliminate coopertition for the IRI and allow these as part of stacks.

Obviously removing the step entirely is never going to happen.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I too will advocate keeping the upside-down totes as they are. There are teams out there who use these to their advantage. (Yes, my team is one of them. I am being bias.) Regardless of my team's use of them, I would hate to see any teams who designed with the upside-down totes in mind not be able to use them.

I think higher levels of play could use more RCs. I am thinking two, added to the step.

Some bonus for the auto totes in stacks could be good too.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Two people in the Human player zone

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I worry about changes like this because it increases the value of HP loading but leaves the landfill value the same.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Oh yes please, this is an excellent suggestion.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Add a HP zone where a single HP has 3 noodles to throw onto the other side of the field. Put it at midfield to keep the HP's safe from errant robots, but also give the teams an opportunity to tactically noodle their opponents rather than fling spaghetti. Noodles on the field no point value. Noodles that have landed on an opponent's capped stack get 8 points (2 noodles-worth) and a single noodle's maximum worth is 8 points (in case it lands on multiple stacks). HP's are placed opposite each other and opposite their opponent's far scoring platform. Remove noodle throwing time restrictions.

First alliance to stack 6 + a RC/noodle gets an off-colored bonus tote through the chute door. Point value TBD, but it can't be game-breaking. Maybe it counts as the value of a capped RC if set on a 5-stack? It may incentivize these high-caliber teams to try to start stacking in autonomous rather than Canburglar.

Add a permanent "3rd robot" which sits on that "reference point" that was in the animation but I haven't seen anyone use. If an alliance doesn't have a 3rd bot on the field due to Cheesecake, they now have to contend with an obstacle of ... sandbags? Plowie with bumpers and steel spikes? ... something. Tradeoffs, you know?

These may open up Elims strategies a little, depending on what other changes are made:
QF's use an alliances best score.
SF's drop the alliance's lowest score.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Eliminate the tether requirement for stationary / non powered ramps. Allows teams to have their ramp on the field and start near the landfill to steal cans in autonomous.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

By dropping the "bad match" you're just penalizing the alliances that did better than you did. Adjusting your strategy for eliminations is important. If your alliance is pushing too hard and making mistakes and scores 45 in match 1 and 195 in match 2, the alliance that creates a more consistent strategy and scores 130 and 128 shouldn't be penalized.

Why shouldn't the alliance that is the most consistent advance? Strategy is what wins and loses events.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Because historically alliances can overcome a bad mistake. That's why it's been best 2 of 3, not single elimination brackets.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Its a tough nuance of the game that has come back to bite several alliances this year. In both of our events we took an early bow out in the elimination rounds to some truly stronger alliances on the field. Our moving on the semi finals was determined by a few circumstances that we could and could not control between making one mistake in a match and our gamepad going unresponsive for 30 seconds. I know there are many, many teams in similar positions where little items that pushed elimination matchups to a third match in previous seasons didn't get the opportunity to make it up.

I wholeheartedly agree that the alliance with the best strategy should & will win an event and it all comes down to execution. The problem is this year's game leaves no room for error and even if you try your hardest in your next matches to execute perfectly its nearly impossible to overcome a bad match when the scores are averaged unless Murphy's Law conveniently strikes the other alliances on the field.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

The things I would do that wouldn't drastically change the game are:
-let roots shoot noodles over the step and back. It's the only real defense equivalent and preventing robots from playing that aspect of the game was just a bad decision.
-Add a 5th recycling bin to the middle step for elims matches. Where the Co-op stacks usually go.
-Yellow totes can be used as gray totes during the rest of the match.
-Gray totes can be used as yellow totes for auto (must be obtained from the field, I wana see autonomous landfill stackers, multiple stacked sets can all generate points)
-bonus points for ending supported by the scoring steps.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

By the time we get to IRI, I'd rather see alliances stretch themselves to set high scores than prove that they can consistently do the same thing three times in a row. I'm in favor of dropping the worst match.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

If FIRST robots were perfect, the control system was perfect, the field was perfect, I'd be inclined to agree. The most consistent alliance should be rewarded. However, that really isn't the case. Unexplained disconnects, while uncommon, still do happen. Control system glitches, particularly since this is a brand new control system, aren't uncommon. And while not all of these hiccups are unpreventable hiccups, there's really no worse feeling in this game than being doomed for the entire rest of your elimination bracket by making one mistake.

It's also worth noting that this emphasis on absolute consistency is a new thing this year. In the past, you could lose a match (the equivalent to making a mistake this year) and still move on. The 2013 World Champions did this in every single matchup, yet I don't think anyone would say that alliance was inconsistent. They had some hiccups, made some strategy adjustments, and persevered. I really don't think this was ever a bad thing.

You're not punishing the "best" alliances by doing this - you're changing what "best" means. "Best" now has a little less emphasis on consistency and a little more emphasis on raising the score as high as possible. This encourages alliances to take risks, to "go big or go home" so to speak, and it makes the eliminations more exciting. Perhaps most importantly, in the quarterfinals at IRI, you won't automatically lose the tournament in the quarters if one of your matches happens to be against a faster can grabbing alliance.

We've all been to regionals where by the last matches, the final alliances are all but a foregone conclusion, and the best alliances can play conservatively to advance. These matches are boring. We've all been to regionals where one of the best alliances gets an unexplained comms issue for 30 seconds, knocking them out of the tournament. We've all been to regionals where the only thing several alliances could do is watch other matches and hope more than anything else that the other alliances mess up. I think we've all experienced the loud cheers when an alliance messes up, as it has drastic consequences. Among the other benefits, this proposal would drastically reduce the impact of a single mistake, make every match more exciting, and hopefully cut back on that incentive to cheer for mistakes.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

The only downside that I could see to dropping the lowest is if an alliance has 2 great matches and decides to sit there for the last match because it reduces the risk of something happening and one of the robots breaking down. Nobody wants to see an alliance sit there for an entire match.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

With a relatively low risk of damage this year, I think teams would more likely use that time to prototype a higher risk, higher reward strategy to try out later on.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I don't know, a stack of totes with a can falling on top of a robot doesn't seem very low risk to me. I doubt we would see robots sitting still at a place like IRI though, teams are going to have to push it to their limits to move on.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

The risk of getting hit with totes--for robots designed by the best teams in the World who've known the risk all season--is pretty low relative to forgoing the opportunity to basically experiment freely in the middle of the hardest elim run of the year. No alliance is going to sit still during Einstein practice matches either. (Yes, I remember that the field is brand new in that case, but we tried some sorta goofy things regardless.)

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Off-season rule changes should make the game more enjoyable without punishing any robot designs.

Changing the field configuration

• Upside down totes - we haven't seen any robots work the upside down totes but it's possible we will it at champs. They are an interesting element to the game. Flipping them moves the landfill dimensions for pulling RCs from the step. So I vote leave the upside down totes.
• RCs on the step - any reconfiguration of the RCs will change how teams pull them from the step. I'm not in favor of changing or adding RCs to the step. If you add a center RC, the teams built to pull from the center (examples 610, 2848) would have to redesign. Plus a lot of work is being put into the can burgler race, that should be rewarded somewhat in the off-season.
• Allowing RCs to be entered on to the field from driver station - some teams are naturally built for this, others are not. Also what happens the first time an RC falls on a driver? Leave them on the field.
• Additional RCs on the field - I like this idea, give every team one more RC to setup during autonomous wherever they would like not in the auto zone. This pushes the score ceiling a little bit with out dramatically affecting game play.

I have more comments I'll post later about other rule change ideas.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

We're built for it. :p We'd be due some karma after the Longbot Massacre of 2012.

But in general, I do not like offseason rule changes that GREATLY favor a particular robot design over another.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Then change the round robin to W-L-T. I don't think there are any overt reasons this is a bad move? I could be overlooking something, but you won't get a lot of variables in a round robin WLT. 3-0/2-1/1-2/0-3 and 2-1/2-1/1-2/1-2 are the only non-tie results you could get from that, right?

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Remove all totes from the center step. Divide center step into a number (~10) of equal sized zones. Recycling containers will be placed in these zones on the step randomly (using a random number generator) after robots are placed on the field.

This is a cool idea.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

You can also get 3-0/1-2/1-2/1-2 and 2-1/2-1/2-1/0-3

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I feel like this devolves into making 3-tote auto de facto worth 50 points. Getting 3 totes on the step is essentially only feasible quickly by teams who have 3 tote, and it's possible that not every elimination alliance will have such a robot, nor will every 3-tote capable robot effectively, quickly or at all be able to transport 3 totes to the step. Changing this to become a 50 point deficit affects the strategic analysis of a lot of teams, unfairly disadvantaging teams that chose to forsake coop/3 tote capability in the main season by making up those points elsewhere. I wouldn't consider it a minor change.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

How about replace noodle throwing with RC throwing? 4 points plus you can take out a couple of stacks and robots at the sametime. :ahh:

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

It just becomes a completely different game at that point. I still think in a nearly zero interaction game, who happens to be playing a match at the same time as you shouldn't matter. You have very little way to influence their score. What is gained by going to WLT? Then the best scoring teams won't always advance...

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Completely agree. Having looked into the geometry of a "can burglar" system, the geometry is pretty tight for the common dual arm mechanism, and losing the 2 or 3 inches from flipping the upside down totes would throw off many teams.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

The Q&A would need updated...

Chute door?
No chute door.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I'm really not sure why alliance station placement is a big deal all of a sudden. It's not like it's any worse really than previous years. I would think that consistency isn't a bad thing. I quite honestly see nothing remotely wrong here.

- Don't remove co-op, add bonus points for extra stacking.
- Allow co-op totes to be used as grey totes in any match (Elims and Quals)
- Don't put RC's over the wall (please)
- Remove noodle throwing (Penalty for each noodle over the step)
- Autonomous is very broken, too much of an all or nothing situation. Shouldn't fix it as it severely degrades the 3 tote autos significantly
- Keep the step
- Remove totes from step
- Put 2 more RC's on the step.
- Flip upside down totes in landfill.
- Keep stack limit

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Because some robots work at particular stations and it's sort of dumb their drivers are forced to operate from the other side of the field (wide ways).

It's a step backwards from last year where alliances could select. And it had arguably less impact last year than this year....

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I do.

This year, being able to be close to your HP is critical if you're a chute-loading robot. Imagine loading from the right HP station, while you're in driver's station #1. 973 used a workaround--20' long cables--but that workaround is specifically ruled illegal by T6-1's blue box (they're way out of range).

It USED to be that you'd be rearranged every match in elims. Now you're locked into the same station every. single. match. that. you. play. If you prefer loading from one side or the other, and you're on the "wrong" side, you're toast.

But if you allow the AC to say "We want to be X order", and they can't change it unless they're swapping a robot out, you allow all the alliances to perform at full capability.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I agree. Especially at IRI, where the idea is to get the best teams in the world performing at an insanely high level, alliance station placement shouldn't be limiting teams. This wouldn't change anyone's strategy (no one, to my knowledge, designed around the assumption that they'd be at the right-hand driver station in every match), it would just make high scores a little more accessible and matches a little more exciting.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I'd say put the recycling containers in all the possible zones, but have the pitch such that existing two-can grabbers will still work. That way you can still use existing mechanisms from the arms race without the resource contention aspect.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

What could alliances select last year that they can't select this year?

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

At championships last year the alliance captain would submit a piece of paper to the Head Ref/FTA saying which robots would be playing in the match and which driver station they would be playing from.

This year it is always locked in that the captain is in the middle, first pick to the left, and 2nd pick to the right. And any robot that you are swapping in at champs will go into the driver station of the robot they are replacing.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Autonomous

• A la carte - could work but possibly harder to implement with the FMS, and changes the game a lot.
• Inclusive Auton Zone - my favorite solution, remove the completely contained in portion of the rule from robot, tote, and container sets. As long as any part of the tote, robot, or container is in the zone then it counts. Tote stacks still need to be fully in the zone. This would allow tether bots to get robot sets, and more container sets from containers off the step. Simple solution that makes auton a whole lot easier and slightly more worth while.

* On a related subject we should remove the landmark from the field. Field crews shouldn't have to tape it down. I haven't seen anybody use it for anything.

COOP/Gold Totes

• Remove COOP - It's interesting, but teams are built for it and we shouldn't punish them. Get rid of the penalty for knocking over stacks because that thing is just silly.
• Add Point Values for Higher Stacks - To many teams are built specifically for the 4 stack (see 118, etc), don't encourage redesigns
• Make Gold Totes worth points in stacks - this is simple and not too big of an advantage for the tote stack teams. It basically rewards the tote stack in auto by giving the team a 3 tote head start in telop, if they can use it. A lot of teams would have to just score it and move on since they need to pickup a container first. That's only a 6 point advantage if they can't put a container on them.
• Gold Totes worth more in stacks - This isn't so bad either, yes the tote stack robots would have some advantage but the other teams could just feed in the gold totes for the same advantage. I'm not sure how much this effects the game since basically they would be scored in most matches if the points were enough. Doesn't really help game play much and actually punishes in consistent tote stacks since the totes might end up sideways etc.
• Gold Totes as containers - I don't like this. If I have 3 "containers" I can keep in my feeder station and I only have to make stacks of 7 totes, I 'm going to do that every match and never worry about going and grabbing containers. A robot that is normally good for 2 stacks of 6 + RC, is easily able to do 3 full stacks if the gold totes count as containers. Plus some teams can't do 7 and that isn't their fault.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Allow multiple pieces of litter per recycling container. Ignore unprocessed and landfilled litter.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I really like the idea of a rule where you could not touch the RCs on a step until the three RCs on your side are in stacks. This would stop each match at IRI being determined in the first few seconds, and actually make it a true "race" to see who can stack three first.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

This is a cool idea, and I kind of wish the game was structured this way to begin with.
It would make some cool strategies, like making three capped stacks of 1 quickly so you can grab the center RC's, or taking your time to use your three cans wisely.
It would also encourage more gray tote-stacking autonomous modes.

However, so many teams have invested so many resources into grabbing RC's during auto that this would change so much about the game.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

One simple change to throw the entire dynamic of the game.

Game pieces may cross over the step in the final 30 seconds with no penalty.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet in this thread, I'm not going to read all 15some pages but from what I have read I have seen "Bring back best of three eliminations" mentioned a bunch of times.

I'm as opposed to this average business as the next guy, don't get me wrong, but a best of three elimination bracket does not work for this game. If it were a different game, sure, I would agree. However the isolation of each alliance doesn't make it a clear cut "Team A vs Team B - Team A won so team A is better". While team A may be better then team B, team B may be better then team C and D.

Sure, that can be the case in any other game too, but the key difference is alliance interaction, of which this game has none. To truly send the better teams forward in the 'playoffs' I believe the averages are necessary until only two teams remain.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I agree with this. We had a 0 point match at SVR that dropped us 10 places in quals. Our elevator carriage had literally popped out of the rails after our elevator arms tried to go down with a tote beneath it. If that happened in elims that would be really bad.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Ok, I know I'll get beat up for this one but at least I'll get it off my chest. A tether must be a real tether and not a piece of string. In my world, a tether in a robotics competition is a device that connects one device to another for data communication between the two. It is not a rope or chain used purely to restrict movement. There, I feel better now.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Great, luckily for you the rules don't require a "tether" (however people might interpret the word), merely that no parts of a ROBOT are detached.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

This is a really good idea. It isn't unfair and will mainly benefit those who really need it.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Much discussion on playoff structure.

I disagree with the assertion that W-L-T only works for Finals in this game; that said, I agree that the playoff structure tends to advance the better alliance. Therefore, I prefer the this year's structure; very much, in fact.

If the lowest score were to be dropped (and I am not in favor of that), then a third match needs to be added in the Quarter Final round. And that would add 25ish minutes to the playoffs. Not my first choice, but something I could support.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

This is something we are thinking about for the Rumble in the Roads. We're also thinking about adding additional alliances to the playoffs instead of adding 4th teams to alliances. Only 4 teams would still move on to SF, but this gives all teams a chance to play in the playoffs without forcing alliances to use different robots in different matches.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Great point. This year's playoff structure allows any number of teams you want in the playoffs, so time is the only constraint one needs to care about. If you liked prime numbers, you could do 11 playoff alliances, then let 5 into the second playoff round. No new playoff structures required to accommodate that in this year's game.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I agree, get rid of the playoff structure!

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

What about a compromise that I've seen work (I know bowling in 8th grade Gym worked like this) where it is WLT played in a round robin format. In that it's round robin in terms of who plays who, but it's WLT in terms of initial ranking calculations. With such a small pool of alliances there will be ties, but those could be resolved using highest score (or average of best scores or the like).

Again, any changes would probably be a PITA to implement (unless FMS is given some sort of an option to change the structure), but in terms of "aspects that have a lot of hate" the playoff format is certainly up there.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

i think this is impossible but allow for defence

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Keep the step and put a 2012 bridge on each side. End game come back.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Over all I would just like to see the opportunity for higher scoring matches. Maybe add more cans?

Okay while we are on the topic of IRI, I have what may be a stupid question. So we are a younger team, going on 5 years, last year we talked about going to IRI, but didn't make it. So this year we are trying to make it happen. We had a few questions. Do the standard first rules apply usually? Such as robot dimensions and robot weight? From reading this thread it seems like the game is subject to change, we were wondering mostly about weight. Thanks!

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Usually the IRI Planning people make a few reasonable rules modifications- one of which is often an extra five pounds to use on your robot.
But I wouldn't plan on having those five pounds just yet. Wait until rule changes are official.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

All the robot rules apply.

As everyone is assumed to have passed inspection at an official FRC event, any inspections at IRI are very informal. Weight is not normally checked unless something seems obviously too heavy, and usually there's a bit of leeway given (typically an extra five pounds) to accommodate teams that have made modifications but don't have access to a good scale.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

maybe have one half go to NYC, the other Israel? seems like a good way to do things, plus, you can get more people too!

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Yellow totes, if used in a stack would double the score of the stack. (but only one per stack... ie no stacking of bonus) ......at least allow them to be used for scoring as a grey tote.

Load 3 of the pool noodles with a weight in the end..with sufficient padding.. (might be a safety concern) allow them to be thrown from one end to knock down a RC or stack.
Big penalty for these to leave the field.... loaded noodles can only be thrown in last 20 seconds.

Very exciting in the end if stacks fall and knock down other stacks...

:yikes:

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Going off this,

If noodle throwing isn't removed, add a penalty for a thrown noodle leaving the field (4pts)... It would add quite a risk/reward to throwing noodles.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Only 1 robot from each alliance is allowed to start in the zone between the landfill and autozone. Red gets to place their robot last in round 1 and 3 of every elimination level. For all other matches blue gets to place last.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

While keeping the can and noodle as a "3x Multiplier" each tote should be worth: 2 + Number of totes below it, this is how I would have done it seeing as making a 5 or 6 stack is hard in this game but only worth 10 or 12 points for doing so.

Now a five stack is worth 19 with a six stack being worth 25, while not jacking up the value of the lower stack counts (1-3).

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Serious:
Change the ranking back to a win/loss format
No upside down totes
Stacking on top of a single yellow tote in eliminations raises the score

Joking:
2 robots on the field for each alliance, the other team (the center teams swap sides, so blue is on red and vice versa) drives a totebot on the opposite color side of the field, and there are bonus points for stopping the totebot and stacking on top of it.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Let people be able to stack yellow totes in play-offs. I really hate to see game pieces go to waste.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Totes on step worth more than 2 points

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Well technically 4334 has a tote flipper, or at least did at one point

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Some that I'm seeing that I agree with:

• Remove the maximum stack height
• Flip the back row of totes in the landfill
• More RC's on the divider
• The more totes on a stack, the more points the stack is worth (1 tote = 2 points, 2 totes = 4 ponits, 3 totes = 9 points, etc.)
• 6 high coop stacks worth 60 points

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Pretty much any robot with a stabilizer won't be able to handle more than 6 properly (1114, 2056, 254, 118, 4488, 148...)

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Pretty much any robot without a stabilizer also won't be able to handle more than 6 properly.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Choosable driver stations would be cool- landfill bots that can see the landfill and hp loaders that can line up easier/faster may increase scoring potential.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

we have a stack stabilizer? I need to go to our meetings more often... [/sarcasm] :rolleyes:

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Every match, each alliance gets one hollow litter that's been stuffed with PVC.

Keep litter rules.

Watch dominoes happen.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I like the litter rule where you can put more than one per green bin. This effectively makes noodle throwing meaningless/suboptimal.

To add to this, robots should be allowed to return litter to their opponents. I'm frustrated that the GDC introduced a gamepiece, then removed any play/counterplay that could have gone with it.

I think that changing the field too drastically would result in basically just a new game. The game isn't designed for your robots, your robots are designed for the game.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

This is similar to a rule idea that got brought up for the Rumble in the Roads. Since our theme is based on the Battle of Hampton Roads and the battle of the Ironclads give each alliance a "cannonball" or 2 (something like a dodgeball) that they can throw at any point in the match. The only rule is they have to yell "BOOM" when throwing it.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

give each alliance 10 cans to replace their noodles that can act as both cans and noodles

they can also be thrown in the last 20 seconds

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I'm interested to see how many ramps come out of the usual 5 additional pounds.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I'm amused by the thought of a human player trying to bend this to feed into a stack over the wall. :rolleyes:

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Personally I'd like to see a third match in the quarters if not a return to the traditional best of three format. I know that IRI is for the best of the best, but we saw potential Einstein alliances go down in the divisional quarters due to one bad match before they had really gotten their chemistry together.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

REALLY like this idea. I propose (and someone probably already suggested this) that you just take out the step entirely. Allow team to go to the other side of the field. You would of course have to enforce bumpers but you could allow teams to have that outside of the transport configuration. Alliances could go bowl over other stacks, yes, but they would also have to try to make/protect their own stacks, which would make for quite a challenge.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

You could ban touching the scoring platform of the opposing alliance. That would also allow a team with a stack to try and "run away" over the scoring platform, while ensuring that things don't get too out of hand.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

At this point, every team in FRC designed their robots without the possibility of defensive interaction in mind. This changed how we built many, many mechanisms this year, and I'm sure it did for nearly every other team. You can't just put defense back into the game and expect everything to work out without teams needing to change designs.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

IMO, the most entertaining bits to watch involved interaction between opposite alliances, namely the tug of war games between two can burglars. I think that by increasing robot operation range to the opponent's landfill or even auto zone would make for more entertaining matches. Alongside this, transfer of game pieces between sides of the field should be removed.

With this, other revisions would have to be made, limiting the amount of interference a team could to an opposing alliance stack. Maybe include a new foul for contacting a game piece on the opponent's scoring platform.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Unlimited (or at least increased) availability of totes from alliance station. I could see two powerhouse teams pulling 70+ totes from behind the wall, while another team clears most of the landfill. While there wouldn't be enough cans to cap those, it would be interesting to see all those stacks and how they fit it all on the platforms.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

It'd be messy, and I imagine that the refs would hate it, but what about extending the Alliance Station, but not the HP station, around the corner of the field a bit so that when teams fill up the near Scoring Platform, they can run a coach around the corner to go direct from there? There was at least one match that 148 absolutely filled up the near platform and appeared to render 1114 landfill eating less effective than usual.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

A win/lose system for playoff matches rather than an average system.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Teleop of 2 minutes, or 1 minute 30 seconds. As it is now, it'll be too easy for powerhouses to run out of game pieces.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

I think that this is just part of the game. Placing your stacks in such a way that drivers can still see, or using vision on the robot, is a very important aspect of Recycle Rush.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

True, but I hope that at IRI, there's a few matches where teams just straight up fill up the scoring platforms end-to-end. 148 can easily fill up over half a platform by themselves, and I imagine with another amazing Feeder Station robot they could fill up the entire close platform.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Lets just trim each match down to the 15s auto period.

We can all work all summer long to create either the most awesome "Wave-like" tote stack / can grabbing machine... or the worlds fastest and baddest Recycling Container yanking device.

The rest of the match is just a pain in the butt to play anyways, lets trim the fat and do what is most exciting.

I was most excited about every Division Playoff and Einstein match at the beginning, usually just the first 0.5-1s.

We could probably play a lot more matches, or get done faster for more time for extracirricular activities. ;)

-Adam

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Here are my serious suggestions:

1. Get rid of serpentine (a long staple of IRI)

2. Go back to wins and losses in both regular and playoff matches. There is precedence for this in 2003 and it was much better. Even if it is just for the playoffs, then that will still be better.

3. Go to 2 v 2!

4. As a result of #3 above, reduce the number of teams attending.


#3 is the most exciting for me because this reduces the need for all of the cans and makes that race less influential without significantly changing the game. It also makes an alliance really weigh the trade-offs between auton and cans.


and one not so serious suggestion:

All day Friday are mentor matches. Only Saturday are student drivers allowed to drive.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

After watching matches this weekend I would suggest the following:

Remove the step. Flip the upside down totes while filling the now vacant step space with totes. Create a rule that you can not cross over the white tape line defining their side of the landfill zone. Small penalty for minor infractions yellow/red card for if strategic/knocks over a stack.

Consider placing a special tote(s) in a randomized position in the landfill in the center line of totes that is a bonus tote when scored.

Place 8 RCs on the scoring platforms.

Increase totes count to 42 (or more) totes behind the alliance station.

With more totes available consider placing a scoring platform on the sides of the landfill for more scoring space each for their own alliance.

With Co-op removed allow yellow totes to be used in stacks.

Litter can only be scored in Recycling Containers or remove litter altogether.

Just a few different ways to change up the game.

Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
 

Half joking suggestion that hasn't been completely thought out.

Tote Scoring: 2^(level -1)

It would take some of the weight of the can race off. Though it's a major change and it definitely hurts can specialists.