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IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
As the Regional and District competitions come to a close, we turn our thoughts to the 2015 IRI. We always have the benefit of a season of play, so we can make small changes to the rules to enhance the game (if / when we need to).
We are open to suggestions - but remember the goal is not to create a new game, or negate the hard work done by teams to design and build robots and strategies to play Recycle Rush. |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
No noodle throwing till the final 30 seconds
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Make autonomous less of an all or nothing kind of thing, like points per piece rather than points per set?
And something that reverses the timing of when noodles can be thrown (i.e last 20 seconds). |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
Remove the chute door, and make the upside down totes in the landfill right side up.
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6 coop tote stack worth 60 points.
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Maybe flip the last row of totes in the landfill to be right-side-up, like the rest of them. This will result in extra usable game pieces on the field, and wont detract from anyone's existing strategies.
EDIT: Andrew beat me to it |
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End game of having your robot fully supported by the scoring platform.
Multiple container sets in autonomous. No yellow card associated with G6-1. Allow getting out of transport configuration in queue (which some events are allowing already). Allow yellow totes to be scored as grey totes in teleop. |
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No throwing noodles, period.
Change entire playoff structure back to traditional tournament with best of 3 scoring. |
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-Drop the set requirements in auto. 2 points per robot, 2 points per tote, 3 points per can (allow more than 3 cans to be scored), and 20 for the stack (overwrites tote points). -Only allow noodles to cross the step in the last 30 seconds and remove the 20 second restriction for noodles over the alliance wall. -Exempt the yellow totes from being penalized for transferring over the step, except in playoffs. Edit: Looks like I'm not very creative, everyone already posted my ideas :( |
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Get rid of G23; put a caveat in G24 for yellow totes from teams attempting a coop set/stack.
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Remove the totes from the bump, and fill it with RC's. Keep the noodle throwing, IMO. Agree with others about flipping the upside down totes.
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Make the staging area go the entire width of the field, and allow alliances to place unlimited yellow totes, RCs, and robots in this area in any configuration they desire.
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I would love to see what great teams could do with a few more RC's to play with.
I also agree on the no noodle throwing and eliminate the over the wall in the last 20 seconds. |
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
Change tote scoring.
Make a stack of 1 tote worth 1 point. A stack of 2 totes worth 4 points. A stack of 3 totes 9 points. A stack of 4 12 points, A stack of 5 15 points, and a stack of 6 18 points. That way teams have some incentive to make stacks without caps. Because with totes only worth 2 points there are diminishing returns in adding more totes to the field. Oh yeah and no yellow card on G6-1. You can keep the foul though, thats fine. And red card if egregious or repeated. |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
Go back to the best of 3 tournament setup for playoffs, and remove fouls for transferring yellow totes across the step. Stacks greater than 6 should count, in the spirit of 1671's practice day 10-stacks at the Sacramento Regional. Autonomous should be worth more, maybe double the current point values.
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Bring back the noodle agreement.
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Bring Aerial Assault robots, play that.
Bring FLL robots, play that. Bring Lunacy robots, play that. |
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Flip the upside down totes, remove the step, and place the RCs on top of the totes while making it illegal to cross over the tape line marking the opposing team's landfill.
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During eliminations first alliance with three golden totes on the step earns a 30 point bonus.
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
More RCs in play somehow--either on the step or gifted to the alliances beforehand.
Some verbiage so incidental objects supporting totes and RCs such as tethers, driver's buttons, noodles, etc still make the stack count as scored. Keep noodle throwing IMO. |
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I choose 195. |
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Allow teams to end their half of the match early to receive a score multiplier.
*starts running away from the immanent torches and pitchforks* |
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
So in another honest one, remove the extra 5 lbs you usually allow teams to use. This year that 5 pounds could turn every single match at IRI into a can war, which would be awful.
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Add one more RC to the center of the step in playoffs.
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I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of removing the noodles all together. It's just an extraneous element that adds almost nothing strategic to the game. |
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Keep current playoff structure, include co-op as means of scoring.
Edit - And let the Game Theory Commence. :) |
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As crazy as it sounds, I'm gonna spit it out there: Remove the Step.
(Though, that's not really a 'small change') |
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At the very least, is there any event that we could see this as an exhibition match? |
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In the semifinals, average the scores of the best 2 out of 3 for each alliance to determine who goes on to the finals.
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Remove the step and create safe zones for robots to be able to stack. Bring back the defense bots.
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I personally like how the playoff tournament structure is set up this year. A couple of reasons for this:
In the old structure when the alliances had to play head to head, the 4th and 5th seed would play against each other with only one of them moving on. The problem would be, what if both of these were better than the 3rd seed and they both deserved to move on, but couldn't specifically because of the head to head format making it much easier for the higher seeded alliances to move on even if they weren't the best of the 8 The same kind of thing goes for the 8th seed alliance. In the old structure 8th seed was basically a death sentence because the alliance had to play against 1st seed for a spot in semi's, and therefore they almost never moved on even though they may be better than the alliance that took the 4th semi's spot. (I do realize that this year's structure would be harder to implement in a game involving more defense) Now, you can have 1, 8, 4, and 5 move on if they have all proven themselves to be among the highest average scoring alliances regardless of who they played against. (And you get to play against more than one of the other alliances in quarters and semis) |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
I would have to agree with others on the noodle throwing issue. Noodle throwing is simply extraneous. It adds nothing to the game but randomness in scoring and the field.
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1)Remove the step and in the last 20 seconds robots can cross the field and take down opposing stacks like 2003
2)Flip the upside down totes in the land fill 3)Change the angle of the chute door to allow totes to land flat 4)Get rid of the yellow totes and add RCs in their place for higher scores A bit drastic I know but they would make the game alot funner to watch |
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Give teams enough times to build a stack of consequence but not so much time that they could make something potentially dangerous. Or just have a ladder handy. :rolleyes: |
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Modify the tote chute and allow RC's to be entered into the field through the chute :rolleyes:
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
These are my suggestions to make this a better game overall:
1. Disallow Noodle Throwing. 2. Place 2 additional RCs on each side of the field, at the end of each scoring platform. 3. Eliminate the Co-op feature. 4. Retain the Autonomous bonuses, but allow yellow totes to be used as regular totes in stacks. 5. change orientation of inverted totes in landfill back to right side up. 6. change tote count for human players to at least 40 per alliance. 7. Eliminate some of the totes on center step and place 2 additional RCs on step. These changes would remove nearly all of the capacity, debris, distraction, and chokehold constraints currently in the game, and this would change Recycle Rush into a more pure high level execution game. The alliance who can build the most and tallest stacks would win. It would be awesome to see how far we could go if the limitations were removed. my $0.02 |
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For Chezy Champs, we have discussed only scoring noodles that are inside of cans. No processed or unprocessed noodle points.
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Would you allow the noodles to still be thrown or would this be a penalty? At a higher level I can imagine the incentive to throw noodles isn't coming from the points, but the disruption to the other alliance. |
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What if playoff teams were ranked by max score at each level rather than average score? Then an alliance that puts up a 250 and an unlucky 150 would move on before another that puts up two 170s, but is capped at that score.
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
Please don't modify the tote chutes. A lot of teams have designs that depend on the current chute geometry and/or using the chute door to control tote speed as it enters the field.
Get rid of noodle throwing. Do away with the yellow totes causing penalties when they fall. It discourages co-op stacking. |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
Allow can-on-can stacking to count for points.
Allow more than one piece of litter per can. Make litter in the landfill worth 5pts and litter on the floor worth 1pt. This would strongly discourage noodle throwing in addition to being representative of recycling - bad idea to litter, good idea to put litter in a landfill. I like the idea of a-la-carte auto, with extra bonuses for getting multiple sets. Totes and cans? +5! Stack and cans? +10! End-game bonus of touching the barrier, forcing teams to decide if they want to score more totes/RCs or get a few bonus points. Expand eliminations to 3 matches per round, averaging the highest two. Permits some freedom in experimenting with different strategies without great fear of screwing up one match. |
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I like the idea of giving extra cans to each alliance. I don't like changing the RC configuration on the step. This change would be pretty lame for teams who spent weeks of the season designing and optimizing can-burglar mechanisms.
+1 for yellow totes acting as grey totes in teleop, and restricting noodle-throwing shenanigans until the end game. |
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Allow teams to throw recycling containers over the step. That way, they can potentially knock down the other alliance's stacks, but if they miss, the other alliance benefits by having another RC with which to score.
I hate this game. |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
With the introduction of Totebots (i've seen one from 868 and 3940), maybe each alliance can use one camouflaged totebot that they can place in the opponent's landfill secretly so that they can defend their opponents during the match.
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
I am happy with the rules as they exist. The change I suggest that you consider concerns entering litter onto the field and the value of the litter.
Litter entered onto the field must remain in contact with the human player until it comes into contact with an RC, except during the final 20 seconds. Litter scored in RC as per current rules. Litter on the field worth 1 coop point for each alliance for litter contained within the two landfill zones. |
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However, if co-op still exists, the penalty for accidentally pushing yellow totes over the step should be removed. Otherwise this is the perfect set of Recycle Rush game rules in my opinion. The other things to consider changing are tournament rules. Personally, I'd love to see rankings done by median score to eliminate outliers and make rankings more representative. I also think returning to a 2 out of 3 traditional style tournament would be better, or at least taking only the two highest scores from your semifinals to average. |
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Allow robots such as our tee-shirt canon Shockwave to play and shoot hacky sacks to knock over cans.
Or just allow robots to shoot actual totes at opposing stacks. Would be much more interesting. |
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Allow noodles to be introduced into play during the entire match, but remove throwing them.
Like 2012 - just remove Co-Op altogether. Allow the yellow totes to function as grey totes. |
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This game is going to have capacity issues at championships, so you know it will be an issue at IRI. Allowing teams x amount more totes behind the wall (I would say 12) and y more cans for the alliance to place anywhere on their side of the field (maybe 2?). Killing litter would help this game a lot. I would say you disallow litter entirely (not even in cans) but it's the second worst game mechanic I have ever seen in FRC so drowning it in the bathtub feels like the right thing to do. Keep Co-Op but allow for 60 point co-ops and have them count as regular totes in elims. Pull out the landfill size and put those totes right side up like they should be. |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
My $0.02
Make some form of endgame Remove the step and allow de-scoring of containers |
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For elims the yellow totes should be allowed to be stacked on top of six high stacks to make 50 point stacks (with a can and a noodle)
Also because we know it's gonna happen, any team that clears and stacks all of their available totes should have the match stop then and there and whatever amount of time is left that alliance should receive 5 points per every second saved. |
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1) 4 points per tote, 2 points per level.
2) At least two more containers. 3) Yellow totes count in stacks (even in qualifications) 4) One of: no noodle-throwing; only noodle-throwing last twenty seconds; only noodle-throwing in auto (might be terrible). 5) Right all upside-down totes. |
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Lastly, it would be nice to create more space for all 3 robots to play. Maybe the scoring platform near the land fill can be split into 2 smaller platforms on either side of the field? |
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I actually really like the idea of an endgame bonus if you are completely in the landfill at the end. Would completely change the dynamics of the game, but it would give an incentive for clearing it out quickly, and it's a trade off for any tether ramps. Litter is awful any way you look at it, it would be great if that could just be scratched and you keep that scoring area in the FMS for the secret endgame. 12 pts per robot, so all 3 on an alliance at the end is equal to a full stack (without litter, of course. Extra bonus for teams that build a second robot to play noodle fencing on the sidelines)
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
Use best 5 out of 10 matches to set qualifications that a disastrous match doesn't take team out of contention.
There's more radical changes, but some would require adding bumpers. |
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Allow for stacks higher than 6 to count up to a stack of 6 (for fun)
Yellow totes can be scored normally Allow stacks to score as long as what ever it is supported by is supported by the scoring platform. 10 points per yellow tote in a stack for co-op and 5 points for every yellow tote not in a stack |
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Stop making refs babysit the Alliance Station. (I know, FIRST does this every year.) Let teams do what they want so long as they remain within it, are safe/don't damage anything, and coaches don't HP or drive.
In effect: Remove at least G5, G6, and G6-1. Replace with a simple rule that the chute door must fully close between each tote. As a ref, watching for HP fouls this year is the equivalent of babysitting the pedestal light. |
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The gameplay right now allows for an alliance of one or two freakishly high scoring robots to make the third robot redundant.
Change the scoring so that a stack's value is doubled if each robot in the alliance contributes one scoring element (tote, bin or noodle) to that stack. Jason |
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If it didn't require such massive changes to FMS, I'd say retweak elims to either be W-L-T or otherwise make eliminations less sensitive to a single-match catastrophe (such as having two 6 highs w/RC+litter dominoe into oblivion, or tipping over by accident while loading).
Otherwise: -Allow auto totes to be scored as gray totes in teleop -Axe co-op or give a bonus for more than 4 totes stacked/set -Allow the throwing of litter throughout teleop (since nobody seems to be processing unprocessed litter anyway). -Allow extra RCs to be introduced over the wall -Flip the upside down totes right side up in the landfill -remove the step totes, add more HP totes (like say 40 per side) - add a bonus for a container set with more than three RCs (via canburglar) - Allow non-tethered ramps/etc. - allow robots to shoot litter across the field w/o penalty (nerf gun bot!) - allow an RC (litter optional) to add to the co-op bonus if such is used to cap a co-op stack, scored the same way as normal RC's, only applying to both alliances. It is scored at the end of the match (if it falls after 3 seconds, the stack counts the but the RC/litter doesn't). -stacks higher than 6 possible, no max level |
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Let the alliance captain pick where the teams are placed at driver station. Putting captain at position 2 is a dumb rule.
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Agreed with no flipped totes, no noodle throwing, and robot-on-step endgame. |
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Remove the middle step...
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Okay, I've been thinking of a way to massively overhaul the game to make a WLT system fun without forcing robot redesigns and without a 2003 repeat. Here's what I've got:
1. Remove all totes and RCs from the center step. 2. Remove the center step, replace with a scoring platform that spans the width of the field. 3. Put a 6" tall wall where the thick brown line is in the below image. 4. Designate the scoring platform nearest to the drivers as scoring platform 1. Designate the scoring platform between the auto and landfill zones as scoring platform 2. Designate the right (relative to the drivers) half of the center scoring platform as scoring platform 3. 5. At the end of each match, tally the points each alliance earned from each scoring platform individually. Compare the points from scoring platform 1 for red alliance with the points from scoring platform 1 on blue alliance. If red scored higher on this platform, attribute all of the points from red's scoring platform 1 to the red alliance, and give blue zero points for scoring platform 1. Repeat for scoring platforms 2 and 3. For example, here are the points that each alliance scored on each platform at the end of the match: Red: Platform 1: 42 Platform 2: 72 Platform 3: 10 Blue: Platform 1: 48 Platform 2: 36 Platform 3: 30 Blue gets 48 points from platform 1, red gets 72 points from platform 2, and blue gets 30 points from platform 3. Blue wins the match 78-72. Now you actually have to pay attention to what your opponent is doing. These are all very high-level changes. I meant this to be just an outline. There are still many issues I did not directly address. |
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Maybe make the yellow totes worth points in some novel way. Autonomous is an advantage because it saves time on co-op as well as the 20 points. And those yellow totes just get in the way in elims. What if the yellow totes were worth 10 each, or something? It would encourage way more alliances to actually use them, it wouldn't nerf autonomous mode, and at a competition as high level as IRI, having 3 game pieces worth that much more won't be a big deal. |
Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
1. Add two RCs to the step by replacing totes and add an RC to the center of the step (3 total additional)
2. Make co-op possible at any level, but both alliance must place a tote. For example, if one alliance placed two totes and the other placed one, the alliance would get a 30 point co-op stack. 3. Flip one tote upright in an alternating pattern, with the first tote closest to the center upside down. 4. Multiple opportunities to score CONTAINER SET in autonomous 5. Gray totes can contribute to a TOTE SET, but not a STACKED TOTE SET 6. Double the value of all autonomous actions except STACKED TOTE SET 7. Unprocessed Litter Bonus doesn't apply, but noodle throwing is still allowed 8. Two pieces of litter per RC Just some ideas. They shouldn't help balance the game more. |
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--Coop Set and Stack (up to 4 totes) as per current rules. --5/10 points per extra tote (depending on set/stack) --Can on top of stack, 5 points/level. Robots attempting this have no height limit. Quote:
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Re: IRI - 2015 Rule Modification Ideas?
Instead of just removing the Step in the middle, I would like to see the Step replaced with a Scoring Platform that spans across the entire field. Half of it colored Blue and the other half colored Red. Any stacks on this platform are worth x2 score of original stack, but the opposing alliance is allowed to steal a stack in the last 30 seconds of the match and try to score it on their own side of the field or their half of the Center Scoring Platform.
That and get rid of noodle throwing like everyone else is saying. |
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Seeing an increase in the points auto is worth would be interesting. Maybe a decrease in the amount of points co-op is worth or maybe change co-op a little bit. I would find it funny people would be allowed to cap the co-op stack for more points. (not really a point to it but I would enjoy seeing it) :)
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