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-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Future First Championship News (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136491)

dodar 09-04-2015 13:30
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTechCenter (Post 1468394)
You think that if they talk about this plan at St. Louis this year during opening/closing ceremonies that they would get a resounding "Boo!" from the audience? I know it's not GP, but I think FIRST needs to start listening to teams.
I dont think we should "boo" but I'd say not a single clap would be better; just be completely silent.

AdamHeard 09-04-2015 13:31
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTechCenter (Post 1468394)
You think that if they talk about this plan at St. Louis this year during opening/closing ceremonies that they would get a resounding "Boo!" from the audience? I know it's not GP, but I think FIRST needs to start listening to teams.
You can say anything to the crowd and they will cheer though.

You could announce we're doubling the price of champs, in order to make it MORE AWSOME! and the crowd would cheer.

Sunshine 09-04-2015 13:32
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1468257)
For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of becoming the World Champion.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the thought that at the World Championship, we can look at the world's best robots up close, ask those teams any questions we want, and make friends from all across the world.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the idea that on Saturday of the World Championship, we will see the "final act" of that year's game. The immovable object vs. the unstoppable force (60 vs. 71 in 2002). The most dominating robot ever built (1114 in 2008) against the field of challengers. The gamebreaker (469 in 2010) against the brilliant minds who were trying to figure out how to beat it. The ultimate 3-ball autonomous vs. the ultimate goalie robot.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of changing the culture by making FRC into an actual sport...the kind that non-participants will want to watch and follow (though for the first few years I admittedly didn't quite see it the same way I do now). Every year I cringe a little bit at that year's "twist" - FIRST has gotten Co-Opertition wrong more often than it has gotten it right - but there have always been moments where I think "wow, if every match was like that, this would be on ESPN".

I understand that growing FRC creates challenges that will necessitate change, but there are certainly other ways to do this than to shoot ourselves in the foot and eliminate one of the most universal elements of competition: A champion decided by a final title match(es).

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.
My feelings exactly. Eloquently stated. Remember folks, you are the customer and you speak with your pocketbooks. Just another attempt of instilling "no robot left behind" mentality. (Sarcasm warning!) Give everyone an award, give everyone the title of world champion........... The more you dilute the more meaningless it all becomes.

Carl C 09-04-2015 13:33
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1468396)
You can say anything to the crowd and they will cheer though.
Cheer and probably throw some paper airplanes.

MrTechCenter 09-04-2015 13:33
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1468395)
I dont think we should "boo" but I'd say not a single clap would be better; just be completely silent.
That's probably a better idea.

mwmac 09-04-2015 13:34
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl C (Post 1468400)
Cheer and probably throw some paper airplanes.
Quite appropriate given this "lead balloon" announcement.

Botsup 09-04-2015 13:35
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I have read all 13+ pages of posts and not a single one is saying "great idea", not even one is mildly positive, most being very negative. I would venture to proclaim the FIRST community is united (a hard thing to do) in viewing this as a bad idea.

SO>>>>

We can write more posts on Delphi, or we can take action! After all, this is OUR
organization. If there are no end users of the program, there is no FIRST. I for one am calling FIRST headquarters today, along with sending them an email, and an old fashioned snail mail letter explaining my displeasure and the reasons for it.

PLEASE JOIN ME! We do NOT have to just grumble and accept this!

scooty199 09-04-2015 13:35
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchneider (Post 1468376)
Solution: regional winners and their wildcards go to Detroit. Everyone else to Houston, with double qualifiers going to Detroit. Treat Detroit as the world championship and Houston as an exhibition championship.

More people to championships. Actually increases the competition level at the main event. Think NCAA vs NIT.
Was thinking the NCAA and NIT thing.

Actually crazy outlandish solution.

Let's come up with conferences (districts) for the different areas for FIRST.

Winning Alliance at DCMPs get automatic bids, as do chairman's and EI.

Make a bunch of these conferences, have a good set of teams, and then the rest fill in by rankings or at large bids.

wireties 09-04-2015 13:36
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynca (Post 1468216)
The hate and anger needs to slow down in this thread.
The word "hate" and all the "isms" words get thrown around way too much these days. "Hate" is a very strong word. All I see in this thread is disgust and disappointment and a little hope here and there - entirely appropriate. And this is just a game and/or philanthropy. Keep it coming, let FIRST know what you think!

That being said, not sure what I think yet...

MrTechCenter 09-04-2015 13:36
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooty199 (Post 1468404)
Was thinking the NCAA and NIT thing.

Actually crazy outlandish solution.

Let's come up with conferences (districts) for the different areas for FIRST.

Winning Alliance at DCMPs get automatic bids, as do chairman's and EI.

Make a bunch of these conferences, have a good set of teams, and then the rest fill in by rankings or at large bids.
I'm pretty sure that's been the idea for years....

Munchskull 09-04-2015 13:37
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1468257)
The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.
This quote above seems to encompas the feelings almost all of us have.

In little over two weeks 600 teams we be in one place. Every one of these teams can have an impact. What if teams that are against two "worlds" some how prominently posting their pits some sort of message showing that they are actively against this new system?

this maybe me just being all heated up right now but it's an idea.

lynca 09-04-2015 13:37
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G. (Post 1468393)

Perhaps a better model would be what VEX does with their "US Open" championship event. This event takes place a few weeks before the official championship, and invitations are given to teams who almost, but didn't quite, qualify for the world championship. The event is near championship scale in its own right, and gives teams that experience, but it doesn't suggest itself to be of equal standing to the World Championship. I believe that in the past, but not anymore, teams which performed well at the US Open could accept reserved slots at the World Championship a few weeks later, if the financial/travel burden was worth it for them.
This has worked well for RECF for the past few years.
I know many teams that travel to the US Open and VEX worlds ! Even the VEX summer games was a neat idea.

Essentially IRI has become one of these types of events for FIRST.

If your team wins FRC Champs or IRI, then you have won a major championship.

Wetzel 09-04-2015 13:38
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botsup (Post 1468403)
I have read all 13+ pages of posts and not a single one is saying "great idea", not even one is mildly positive, most being very negative. I would venture to proclaim the FIRST community is united (a hard thing to do) in viewing this as a bad idea.

SO>>>>

We can write more posts on Delphi, or we can take action! After all, this is OUR
organization. If there are no end users of the program, there is no FIRST. I for one am calling FIRST headquarters today, along with sending them an email, and an old fashioned snail mail letter explaining my displeasure and the reasons for it.

PLEASE JOIN ME! We do NOT have to just grumble and accept this!
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=111

Sam Slade 09-04-2015 13:39
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I know I'm late to the party here so I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts yet but this came to my mind almost immediately after reading the announcement.

By limiting which Championship event teams can go to based on geographic regions, you are pretty much guaranteeing (at least through 2020) that there will be two main groups of "powerhouse" teams that will never get to compete against one another. With a Championship event in Detroit, you will see Michigan powerhouse teams like 67 and 33 with Canada powerhouse teams like 1114 and 2056. In Houston, you will have teams from Texas like 118 and 148 with, more than likely, west coast teams like 254 and 978 (Las Vegas isn't exactly the coast but you get my point). These teams are almost always the best of the best and seeing them compete against one another is one of (IMO) the best parts of the World Championship event. By forcing them to compete in separate World Championship events, matches between these teams is something we may never see except in the off season (IRI).

Another issue I have is placing one of these Championship events in an area where the district structure is already present. This year 64 teams from Michigan are qualifying for the Championship event to be spread over 8 divisions. Michigan teams have been competing against each other all year. At the Championship event, they will be spread out and get to compete against the best teams from around the world. With a Detroit championship and only 4 divisions, are they going to decrease now the number of teams in Michigan (a growing district) that qualify for the Championship event? If they don't, then the Detroit championship will be saturated with Michigan teams, diminishing the "World Championship" feel. And instead of playing the best teams from around the world, now they are playing the best teams from the Midwest and Canada.

I agree that the World Championship event is growing and it is a great thing. I have no problem with two championship events but I would propose a few changes.

1. Don't limit teams to championship events based on their geographic region.
2. Hold both events in the same weekend.
3. Take the top 4 alliances from each championship event and have them compete at a 1 day event the following week in a third location.

This gives you 8 alliances of the best robots in the world to compete in one final tournament. Invite the Chairman's award finalists, etc. to the event and make it a big deal. No qualification matches, just the best of the best competing for the crown. This gives you your World Champions, your Chairman's Award winner, etc.

It wouldn't have to have the huge pit areas like a normal championship event. You could but it in a basketball arena and make a huge deal out of it. Give the best of the best a stage to play on and the marketing and FIRST's exposure would take care of itself.

Bob Steele 09-04-2015 13:40
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I think we were well on our way to having teams compete for more championships by moving to Districts. At PNW last weekend and last year we had a great time and the competition was really fun. We got to crown champions and had GREAT robots there. It was exciting and we now have our District Champions. Each District can do this... and then send along a great set of robots to St. Louis.

If we stay the course and get everyone on the District bandwagon, this can happen for every team. MANY more teams get to go to District Championships and compete.

Trying to say that EVERYONE needs to be able to compete for CMP is ridiculous we simply can't host an event for everyone. These District CMP events are exciting and very much like competing in a division at St. Louis. The competition is very similar. to Divisional play at CMP.

If we want everyone to be able to experience CMP once why not give everyone a "golden ticket" that would be redeemable in any year that the team desires.... they could go to CMP and get the experience. It would give their team a boost. Some teams would use it early some later when the team needs it but it would be a chance for that team to utilize it as they see fit. I think that the 2nd or 3rd year is the critical time for teams and that may be the time to use their ticket.

Not a perfect solution of course but let's stay the course and get more areas on the District Bandwagon.


OK..caveat.... our team was on the winning alliance in our District CMP the last two years.... but I don't think that makes this argument any less powerful.

Other District teams should weigh in on this... I think you will find it supported by most.... District CMP costs less.... travel is easier....

the only downside is not being able to play against teams from other parts of the world. but perhaps interdistrict play might help in that regard when it starts happening on a larger basis.

I know this is not a perfect idea.... some teams will always have issues..so I apologize to them already.


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