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-   -   Future First Championship News (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136491)

KeeganP 09-04-2015 14:40
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"

If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.

If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."

Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?

Munchskull 09-04-2015 14:43
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Smith (Post 1468475)
People are hurt... it's a big change, and it is scary. Deep down, I'm guessing many of us know that there will be a compromise, a longer term plan, appropriate discussions that get us closer to where we want to be. However in the near term, having the "World Champs" experience we know and love dramatically changed by literally splitting the community into two events... sucks?

And I don't see it to be any more contradictory to be vocal and frustrated at this announcement despite heaping praise onto FIRST/Frank in the last couple years... than to claim that people you have looked to as role models for years are no longer your role models because they are venting their frustration.

Frankly, this just caught a huge number of us by surprise today... and people are reacting. It doesn't make mean people are immature, it doesn't mean they "value championship titles over students", or any other over-simplification. The details we were provided were not sufficient to ensure the championship experience we have today will either be maintained, or there is a path to it... so a number of folks are venting their frustration.
Exactly. I just wish that FIRST would consult team.

Munchskull 09-04-2015 14:44
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeeganP (Post 1468477)
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"

If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.

If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."

Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Should the community get a say?

MrTechCenter 09-04-2015 14:44
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1468471)
This might be a good point to start some constructive discussion.

I'm also a fan of the district->district CMP->super regional->CMP concept. The only true concern I have with it is the amount teams will most likely have to spend in just registration costs for 4 tiers of events assuming they go all the way. If any one of those tiers (or more if FIRST wants to be nice) were free for teams it could work. Perhaps district CMP? 5k/year for the entire district model sounds fair. Meanwhile less populated areas still in regionals would pay the same amount with one less tier, dropping DCMP and just having a single regional with winners moving on to the super regional.
I think that the cost of the two district events everyone gets with their registration fee can be driven down significantly. Most district events are held at high schools (some at college campuses) anyway. Having hosted an offseason competition the last two years, it's not that expensive to put on a competition for 30-40 teams. Where does that $5,000 that teams pay even go for district models? I imagine that after everyone has paid their $5,000 and any expenses have been paid for, there's probably still quite a bit a money left. It would be great if that extra money goes towards helping teams that are financially struggling or something of that sort, but something tells me that's not the case...

If somebody who's heavily involved in their district system could weigh-in on what the finances look like, it would be much appreciated.

Jared Russell 09-04-2015 14:45
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1468471)
This might be a good point to start some constructive discussion.

I'm also a fan of the district->district CMP->super regional->CMP concept. The only true concern I have with it is the amount teams will most likely have to spend in just registration costs for 4 tiers of events assuming they go all the way. If any one of those tiers (or more if FIRST wants to be nice) were free for teams it could work. Perhaps district CMP? 5k/year for the entire district model sounds fair. Meanwhile less populated areas still in regionals would pay the same amount with one less tier, dropping DCMP and just having a single regional with winners moving on to the super regional.
I think three tiers is about as many as people can tolerate, which means District CMP needs to change into a Super Regional, or District CMP needs to qualify fewer teams for the World Championship. At some point, it's okay to have branching tiers of competition so that too many people aren't one and done (Champions League vs. Europa League in European soccer is probably a better comparison than NCAA vs. NIT).

mwmac 09-04-2015 14:45
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeeganP (Post 1468477)
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"

If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.

If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."

Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Today, we are proud to announce that FIRST is about to change the game again, for the better! Beginning in 2017, we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.

Seems like First wants to be perceived as a sport for the mind...

cgmv123 09-04-2015 14:46
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeeganP (Post 1468477)
I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"

If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.

If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."

Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?
Given that FIRST refers to its programs as "The ultimate Sport for the Mind™" I think it's pretty clear how they (used to) consider what their programs are.

PayneTrain 09-04-2015 14:47
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1468468)
I can only speak for myself, but I thought FIRST was on a really good trajectory with their Districts->Super Regional->World Championship concept. I think there's a way to implement that in a way that provides realistic (but difficult) goals to most teams, reduces team costs, keeps it to the same number of days of missed work/school and travel, and maintains a really high competitive bar at the Championship.

The Championship itself would need to become more spectator friendly in order for many of the benefits of co-locating the world's best to continue to hold, and it would be awesome for it to become the sort of event where teams send students to be inspired, learn from, and be entertained by some really awesome robots and teams.
I envisioned the death of World Championships as we know it to come by the end of this decade (and Im not sure there is anyone who is remotely aware and active in FRC/FIRST who thinks otherwise.

I saw an ideal endgame would be to take the idea of World Championships and turn it into something like a super-IRI. A weekend in July has a 150 team event with two fields. Take the 16 super regional winners, the 4 HoF Finalists, the top 25-30 points earners over the season from each zone, and the final 10-30 spots that would be determined as some kind of wild card: a mixture of HoF teams that didn't make the points cut, the top rookies in the world, top points earners at every super regional that didn't make the cut (like a most-improved).

It's largely an exhibition, just like World Championships of any high school sport. It should be run by FRC, but you can call the award something like The Director's Cup. You can adjust the game rules to improve play at a high level, you disregard bag time, and you don't pay a registration fee to go.

You get 2 months to prepare for a truly magnificent spectator driven version of FRC. It's the All-Star game, the midsummer classic of robotics, and it's globally televised by Fox Sports 1 or NBC Sports or ESPN. They sponsor the telecast to remove the registration fees. They get two months to go out and interview and shoot b-roll of top competitors for segments. You get two fields so play doesn't have long lulls. You put the competition on a Friday and Saturday in the summer to avoid people losing vacation days or school time. You get to keep FIRST's idea of providing a championship type experience at what I think would better be known as "Zone Championships" and the idea of World Championships carries on in the FRC Grand Prix. People from all over the FRC world can come to watch and learn from the best teams. At the end, you crown the Chairman's Award Winner and the 3 Winner's of the President's Cup.

Nemo 09-04-2015 14:47
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Why does the championship have to be so enormous? Even at 400 teams, it’s big enough to tax any city’s infrastructure, and there are only a handful of venues that are big enough to host it. It is not possible or necessary for everybody to attend the world championship.

Anupam Goli 09-04-2015 14:48
Re: Future First Championship News
 
In 2009, I casually wandered to the Championship event in downtown Atlanta, not knowing what to expect. My team had qualified with an engineering inspiration award, and I was excited. What I experienced at the championships was inspiring. Being able to see robots from around the world, ask questions and learn from teams like 1114 and 254 is not something you can do elsewhere, and seeing these machines live inspires you to improve.

Fast forward to today, my students are thrilled to win their first regional, and the other mentors on the team are thrilled to compete at the world championship for the first time since 2015. The goal for the last three years has been to make it to the eliminations at championships, but we needed to win a regional to make it first.The students are so excited that they'll be able to play with the big boys like 254, 118, 1114, etc. They watch all of these streams and are looking forward to seeing them up close.

Having two region-locked championships will not be inspiring to them. They want to see the best of the world, all in one place. They don't want to play in a watered down championship featuring half of the good teams, and the other half being teams who aren't championship event-caliber. Why put in the effort to win a regional when you're just going to go to a diluted "half championship"?

ASmith1675 09-04-2015 14:48
Re: Future First Championship News
 
The locations selected do see odd if the goal was to ease travel concerns. Flying to Houston or Detroit is probably a bit easier than to St Louis, but its definitely not any easier to drive to either of those locations from the coast.

Participating with teams that haven't moved to districts yet, its been a bit sad to see fewer and fewer teams from outside the state come to regional competitions. We used to see a good number of teams from Michigan at the Wisconsin and Midwest regionals, and now with Indiana in districts we no longer see friends from that state either. This is an understandable result of the district system, and I had hoped that we might begin to see inter-district play as the standard to allow some of those truly inspiring teams to spread their message beyond their state borders.

I am concerned that this change to the Championship event will further limit the cross-pollination of teams that many rarely get the chance to see in person. It seems like they want to create an east and west super-district. While I can see the logic in getting as many team as possible to experience the championship event, how would it feel if you couldn't see your favorite robot in person because of geography. West coast teams would likely never see 1114, and those on the east would never see 254. Sad for all involved.

I suppose its a good problem to have overall that the program has grown to this point. I just hope there is a better solution than to directly divide the country as it seems has been proposed.

Brandon_L 09-04-2015 14:51
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTechCenter (Post 1468483)
I think that the cost of the two district events everyone gets with their registration fee can be driven down significantly. Most district events are held at high schools (some at college campuses) anyway. Having hosted an offseason competition the last two years, it's not that expensive to put on a competition for 30-40 teams. Where does that $5,000 that teams pay even go for district models? I imagine that after everyone has paid their $5,000 and any expenses have been paid for, there's probably still quite a bit a money left. It would be great if that extra money goes towards helping teams that are financially struggling or something of that sort, but something tells me that's not the case...

If somebody who's heavily involved in their district system could weigh-in on what the finances look like, it would be much appreciated.
The 5k for the initial district registration also includes your kit don't forget, plus the two events. That's why I didn't touch the initial 5k. I believe a fair way to do it would be 5k initially with a free DCMP as Michigan was intended to be.

Jarad also has valid points, how many tiers are too many?

Citrus Dad 09-04-2015 14:52
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I will make a set of more neutral observations. I haven't come to a conclusion one way or another about this change.

I think that FIRST is facing an almost existential decision in the face of its success. The expansion of the FRC championship and moving FTC and FLL out of the Dome are a first step in that process. I expect that FIRST is asking what happens as participation rises and the championship expands. Last year, FIRST already noted that the number of teams qualifying would surpass 600 in short order. They probably believe that more than 600 is simply too large for any one venue. On the other hand, they want teams to have the same probability/opportunity to qualify for a "championship." To accomplish that goal, they decided to split the championship rather than squeeze the qualification criteria. I'm currently agnostic on whether that's the best option but I also understand the importance of maintaining the same incentives for a growing pool of teams. (Interesting work on that economics right now related to growing income equality.)

Not sure if this perspective helps, but maybe we can start a discussion about what should be the goals of FIRST and FRC, and what options are available to meet those. The district/super regional/champs was one, but that tends to narrow the final qualifying pool.

On a side note, I'm not sure shifting from St. Louis to Houston and Detroit really effectively changes many teams travel time. The impact is surely confined entirely to the middle of the U.S. and has no effects on teams on the coasts. Moving to San Jose and Virginia would have been a more distinct shift with real effects.

MrTechCenter 09-04-2015 14:53
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1468501)
The 5k for the initial district registration also includes your kit don't forget, plus the two events. That's why I didn't touch the initial 5k. I believe a fair way to do it would be 5k initially with a free DCMP as Michigan was intended to be.

Jarad also has valid points, how many tiers are too many?
True, I forgot about that. But isn't most of the stuff in the kit donated anyway?

PayneTrain 09-04-2015 14:54
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus Dad (Post 1468502)
I will make a set of more neutral observations. I haven't come to a conclusion one way or another about this change.

I think that FIRST is facing an almost existential decision in the face of its success. The expansion of the FRC championship and moving FTC and FLL out of the Dome are a first step in that process. I expect that FIRST is asking what happens as participation rises and the championship expands. Last year, FIRST already noted that the number of teams qualifying would surpass 600 in short order. They probably believe that more than 600 is simply too large for any one venue. On the other hand, they want teams to have the same probability/opportunity to qualify for a "championship." To accomplish that goal, they decided to split the championship rather than squeeze the qualification criteria. I'm currently agnostic on whether that's the best option but I also understand the importance of maintaining the same incentives for a growing pool of teams. (Interesting work on that economics right now related to growing income equality.)

Not sure if this perspective helps, but maybe we can start a discussion about what should be the goals of FIRST and FRC, and what options are available to meet those. The district/super regional/champs was one, but that tends to narrow the final qualifying pool.

On a side note, I'm not sure shifting from St. Louis to Houston and Detroit really effectively changes many teams travel time. The impact is surely confined entirely to the middle of the U.S. and has no effects on teams on the coasts. Moving to San Jose and Virginia would have been a more distinct shift with real effects.
I am willing to hold another FRC Championship in my culdesac. No guarantees but we can probably fit more teams than Waterloo.


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