Re: Future First Championship News
 

Who says this model wouldn't be competitive? By no means do I think its the best choice moving forward, but on here it certainly feels like people are mostly concerned with the fact that there wouldn't be a definite winner for the entire competition.

Yes, it will suck that their won't be an absolute champion, but inside these events, the competition still exists.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm not an apologist by any stretch but I typically give FIRST the benefit of the doubt in most of their changes. I wasn't a fan of the change away from the W-L-T format but I gave it a chance.

This....this...however....this doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever (and everything I feel is my opinion and only mine, not of my team, etc. and so forth).

Maybe they can explain better how they think this helps teams who can't afford to go to Worlds as it sits now? My team was awarded a wild-card spot this year and we weren't going to make it based off of merit so it would have been nice to go again (haven't been since 2004, none of our students have ever been). But guess what, we couldn't come up with the funding or time last minute to find it.

How does adding a second Worlds change this? If they wanted to make a different, why didn't they put one closer to the East Coast and one closer to the West. Granted, the logistics to host one probably lowers the number of areas willing to do so but having two both in the CST zone doesn't help the problem.

All I see that it does is dilute the meaning behind winning a World Championship, Woodie Flowers award, or Chairman's Award, etc. I'm trying real hard to stay empowered and motivated to continue inspiring my students which is a HUGE part of FIRST but I don't know how many times I have to say it, its FRC (FIRST Robotics COMPETITION). They might as well change it to FRE (FIRST Robotics Event), at least that would be a more apt description.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I seriously doubt the people making the argument for some kind of Champs logistical change get on ChiefDelphi at all. I'm talking about TIMS contacts who give the FRC Teams email an earful (eyeful?) about cost/etc. I hear stories directly from local teams trying to solve the problem of getting to champs, and I know for a fact I've never seen their team # on CD. I'm sure they're emailing FIRST directly trying to get info, resources, tips, etc.

As-is FRC Champs is a logistical nightmare. Let's say the DC region went to districts, and district champs were this coming weekend. How are the district champs winners getting to St. Louis? Certainly not flying at $600 per ticket (that doesn't get us there until 3pm...). Everyone's on a bus for 15 hours at that point.

If that makes me an apologist in some eyes, well ok then. To me, the only thing we can do is take what we see/experience and make a logical, thought-out argument for/against something like this or for other similar changes.

It seems like splitting up Champs is a logical next step for FIRST in general. Personally I think it makes more sense to split up Champs by program rather than geographic location, but that's my FRC-centric 0.02.

If we go with a sports metaphor, this announcement is more like AFC/NFC Champs, and IRI is the Super Bowl. Now if only we could get ESPN covering IFI ( :: ducks and covers :: ). Though I will really miss seeing the West Coast and MI powerhouses at the same event :(. Given that vacation is already scarce, I doubt I could attend both events as a volunteer at one of them and a team at the other.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

MSC was supposed to be free for teams. FIRST HQ made FiM charge second event fees. If the funding is there, there's no reason FIRST couldn't make that intermediary level free (or at least just a minimal registration fee).

Re: Future First Championship News
 

lol west coast

Re: Future First Championship News
 

But now there is twice the energy! Or half...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

still waiting for April fools.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm down.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Actually the NFL metaphor would be like having 2 Superbowls, one for the AFC and one for the NFC and calling both winning teams World Champions.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I intended this as a positive.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Would not be fair would it?... two different preferred pools what if one even is super easy in comparison...that winning alliance would have been weeded out. Its all about pairings and when you only half half or so of a pool all champions are suspect....even more so than the usual preferred qualification pool seeding to get well know teams an edge.

Just look at top bot alliance qualification partners and you will see this in action...cream rises to top by "random" design. Less known teams always have a harder road in quals due to this qual alliance pairing in action. You don't notice it until you do.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I feel like I also addressed the issue in the post.

One level of competition would have to not have a registration fee, obviously.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

^^

Re: Future First Championship News
 

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of becoming the World Champion.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the thought that at the World Championship, we can look at the world's best robots up close, ask those teams any questions we want, and make friends from all across the world.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the idea that on Saturday of the World Championship, we will see the "final act" of that year's game. The immovable object vs. the unstoppable force (60 vs. 71 in 2002). The most dominating robot ever built (1114 in 2008) against the field of challengers. The gamebreaker (469 in 2010) against the brilliant minds who were trying to figure out how to beat it. The ultimate 3-ball autonomous vs. the ultimate goalie robot.

For 15 years I have been motivating myself and the teams I have been a part of with the goal of changing the culture by making FRC into an actual sport...the kind that non-participants will want to watch and follow (though for the first few years I admittedly didn't quite see it the same way I do now). Every year I cringe a little bit at that year's "twist" - FIRST has gotten Co-Opertition wrong more often than it has gotten it right - but there have always been moments where I think "wow, if every match was like that, this would be on ESPN".

I understand that growing FRC creates challenges that will necessitate change, but there are certainly other ways to do this than to shoot ourselves in the foot and eliminate one of the most universal elements of competition: A champion decided by a final title match(es).

It is clear with this decision that FIRST as an organization doesn't have quite the same set of goals that I do.

The ideals that are held by myself and by many of the longtime FRC mentors and volunteers whom I consider friends and colleagues are bigger than FIRST, and we will find (or make) another vehicle for them if we are forced to.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

So it is official, 2015 is the worst year in FIRST.

Also:
1: Will Chief Delphi cater to VEX Pro Challenge teams?
2: When can I sign my team up?
3: Can my team carry our FRC number over?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

On the Contrary, this seems to be a step towards Super Regionals; FIRST is introducing the North and South Super Regional as Championships for now. There's just not enough teams that would get a berth from super regionals to justify a championship smaller than both of them.

Once FRC has expanded to justify the addition of the East and West Super Regionals, they will add those, and reinstate a true championship.

Change hurts, and I my own concerns about the system for the time being, but I'm excited for the path they are taking towards a more scalable system.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

First is acting like the true monopoly they are. They clearly don't care what we think or this would have been talked about before acting.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

i wouldn't say that, 2017 looks pretty poor too.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I was too disheartened to write a post this long, and instead resorted to my usual snarky comments.

I'm glad you did, I agree with every word and it describes how I feel exactly.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

First Robotics Convention or Expo seems more accurate now.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Where are you getting your info? Inside guy?

Because in my opinion it would have made more sense to actually start the super-regional structure instead... and have the framework in place for future growth always under 1 championship. Not multiple championships....

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Maybe bringing a robot will be optional in a few years.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

In terms of qual match performance, it will be pretty much optional by 2017.

Even now there will be teams at the World Championships essentially unable to score points (as there are every year).

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Certainly could happen...

Ontario Soccer Association: Our Kids Play Soccer Without The Soccer Ball
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/ont...e-soccer-ball/

"By removing the ball, it’s absolutely impossible to say ‘this team won’ and ‘this team lost’ or ‘this child is better at soccer than that child.'”

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I feel that FIRST could make a super regional system with 600 teams without much a problem...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Jared's post hits home. A perspective that's formed from his experience on two HOF teams.

Before making decisions this big, I would hope that FIRST would have polled some of the community. Whether it be HOF teams, mentors, volunteers, etc. If they had, I doubt they would have received much support, if any for this change.

I really did think this was a prank when people where describing the news to me this morning...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Cutting before measuring is always a bad thing.

Putting multiple championships may be viable way, way down the road. But you need the lower tier infrastructure first. And, as of now, they seem to be skipping all that.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

FIRST, we need to have a quick chat about English.

You cannot have two "World Championships" because we only live on one World. What you have done is remove the concept of world champions.

To call it anything else is at best failing at English, and at worst lying and misrepresenting yourself.


[edit]Keeping this up since this was my honest gut reaction. I was corrected by Evan below.[/edit]

Re: Future First Championship News
 

considering some of the second picks that did nothing at elims stage and still won regionals this year. This problem definitely exists already and will only get worse.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

As others have said, thank you for putting into words what I have been thinking since I read the news. I still find it hard to believe, and while I am almost positive this isn't the case, I hope this is a joke.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

IF they _really_ go through with this... I think some name changing is in order...

The FIRST National Semi-Finals

-and-

The IRI WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP


--Michael Blake

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm pro, on the condition that the change lets FIRST reduce the price of admission. We need to get the cost of running a successful team (a bot, one or two regionals, and a trip to champs) under 20 k$ if we're going to prevent half of all FRC teams from folding (which is what is happening currently). It's an existential problem for FIRST.

Selfishly, Detroit is going to be much easier for Ontario teams to get to. We could rely on private transport instead of renting a bus.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Where does FIRST say "World Champions"?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I agree with you on splitting it up by program.

Have a location for FRC specifically, and one for FTC/FLL. The only downside I believe would be the schools/localities that have multiple programs across different levels. That split would be awful.

I think this split will devolve into a NCAA Tournament/NIT sort of comparison with a team split soon.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This will only be my 6th year in FRC, but this post really hits home for me.

I come from a region that has never even reached Einstein, and its one of the major goals many mentors from the PNW share. Being able to go to worlds, view all the INCREDIBLE robots, and see Einstein finals usually being the best matches played in FRC inspires us to push even harder. Only getting to see half the teams, and having to Einsteins is going to make the finals be basically the semi finals. The best of the best now will not happen in regular competition, which to me is basically unacceptable. Seeing the best of the best is what inspires me and my students to work harder each year to hit that goal.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

FIRST used to stand for something. Some thing great. It had meaning to everyone involved in it.

I was eight when I had my first exposure to FRC during the game Overdrive. It amazed me. I could not wait till I was old enough to join a team. Last year we made it to worlds, I was blown away by all the teams. We were honor to play with 1114 and 16. My team sat in the stands watching Einstein, blown away by seeming the greatest teams play to decide the world champion. It was like gods playing chess. One wrong move and you are done. I still have tingles down my spine thinking about it.

This years game was a little bit of a let down, I felt bad for the senors that are graduating this year. Leaving on such a boring game. But now I fear for my senor year. When Championships splits, it becomes nothing. The one thing that has been the same, ever since FRC was played on corn, is there was a world champion alliance. Now it means almost nothing.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I've minimal interest in becoming a world champion in St Louis, or where ever FIRST moves. I'm motivated by my DC Public School students going to college, and even more proud when they get accepted to MIT and Caltech. I'm delighted to meet alumni who graduated 10 years ago return to visit with a PhD and a check to support the current youth. I'm energized by a team that gels at a competition and gets excited when the robot they built in their classroom does what they built it to do. I'm encouraged that a team with 5 students, 2 whom had never used a screwdriver before, not only graduated from a high school where fewer than 50% graduate in four years, but 4 of them graduated from college in four years. I'm impressed when a shy student can come out of their shell and impress the school chancellor with their passion.


Yeah having a unified World Champion would be great, but it's not about the robot.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I was eagerly awaiting the release of division assignments for 2015 when this news broke. Now I am waiting to see how the 2017 Championship assignments will work in our favor monetarily. Will the trailer get dragged to Houston (1939 miles) or Detroit (1963 miles) vs. St. Louis (1626 miles)? Already counting the money Tators will save with this change...:rolleyes:

BTW, can't wait to see the design for the FRC World Championship Participant Trophy that will be coming in the KOP for 2017.

Very surprised that First HQ did not try to gauge public sentiment to such a sweeping change....

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Today, we are proud to announce that FIRST is about to change the game again, for the better! Beginning in 2017, we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.

In sport, a championship is a competition in which the aim is to decide which individual or team is the champion.

Two champions and championships? That's nuts.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

For the sake of informing the discussion, the circles on this map represent a 750 mile radius drawn from each of the three cities. It's pretty clear that these areas encompass a majority of current FRC teams.

I chose 750 miles because that's the furthest I've ever driven without wanting to die. It's about a 12 hour drive.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

My favorite post in this thread so far

Re: Future First Championship News
 

When you win a "World Championship" you are generally considered the World Champions....right?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

First Lego League has felt like that...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Kinda sad we arent even in those circles. lol

Re: Future First Championship News
 

The post specifically said that they would be expanding champs to be over 100% larger than 2014 by 2017.

So, for the previous version of champs to exist, they would at minimum be required to being 200 teams from each super regional, at most 50% of each. Assuming 4 divisions, that would leave you with 96 teams in eliminations with 3 alliance members each. If you're assuming a champs model with 300 teams, you would need to send 3/8 of each super regional, 150 teams. 35% of those teams would have never seen eliminations. In Michigan this year, for every three teams in playoffs, there will be one more team sent to worlds (Note: Not all teams in playoffs make it to worlds, but most do).

It's also a large increase in cost; that's an additional 2 rather expensive venues to add to the bill in reservation, years before using them.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

East coast bias strikes

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Actually, they've initiated significant changes that will be in place by 2017.

The LoneStar Regional attendees had to deal with navigating through and around active construction sites to get from parking to the event.

Superbowl LI is going to be in Houston that year so everything should be in place by the end of 2016.

The Hilton Americas already connects to the GRB via a skybridge and has 1200 rooms. They're adding the Marriott Marquis which will connect via skybridge on the other end of the GRB. It has an additional 1000 rooms. There are six smaller hotels going up in the nearby vicinity that will add an additional 1200 rooms to the area.

Websites:
General Overview of the New Convention District

Image Gallery of Architect Renditions of Finished State

Details on New Hotels

Re: Future First Championship News
 

We're in Florida.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Attachment 18804

There you go.

Houston == South Super Regional
Detroit == North Super Regional

Once you have a big enough volunteer base, FRC champs returns.

I'm open to hearing from the naysayers on the thread about alternate approaches to implementing super regionals, that directly address constraints on event volunteer growth, the fuel that FIRST events run on.

I think this is exactly the right time to be announcing this. They want it out there prior to Champs so that they can get feedback and talk to the rationale behind the change. If they were really trying to hide the ball, this would come out at 8am on April 26, or they'd announce it at Kickoff.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

They do not. Thank you. I have added to my post above.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Exactly, this will allow for FIRST to come up with responses to our questions and concerns. They will hopefully be able to address them two weeks from now during the FIRST Opening and Closing Ceremonies.

What are our constructive criticisms? How would we fix the system by 2017?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Spokane to Houston: 2,118 miles
Spokane to Detroit: 2,071 miles

Spokane to St. Louis: 1,805 miles

I thought i heard something about cost saving?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Re: Future First Championship News
 

But why have worlds that big? Why not just start the super regional system small with ~200 teams per super regional, and then have like 30 per super regional make worlds. Money is already an issue, no need to make the worlds large just to be large.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I not happy to see this change. For FRC it doesn't make sense, you take the C out of FRC.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

They can salvage the competitive integrity if they find a way to have the two winning alliances play each other.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

You could play this year's game over Skype if you find a way to emulate the can race.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

More costs, more student time used, more mentor time used.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

VEX has had a working championship system for years. With multiple tiers of play, and more teams across the globe, they found a way to organize a competition where everyone feels they got a fair chance, they inspire more people, and they don't sacrifice the competitive aspect.

Is it a grudge, or pride that keeps FIRST from emulating this system?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Those circles are just plain wrong. The 750 mile radius doesn't extend past the midland region of south Carolina. You have them extending beyond the coast. There are teams in Georgia and South Carolina that won't be in those circles either.

Can someone find a sport in the world that has multiple world championships? First likes to call themselves the sport for the mind. Looks like they've got an identity crisis they need to solve.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Note this post is reflected on my thoughts and not my teams:
I joined 842 when we had already won the biggest award in FRC. I thought we were one of the greatest competitors in the world knowing this but come competition season, I soon realized that it wasn't the same case for our robots. Yes we work very hard to help our community and grow STEM but I guess I never really liked the fact that our robots were pretty under performing in comparison to the best in the world. Seeing awesome teams like 469 and 25 inspired me do everything I can to help make our robots more competitive. After all, 25 comes from a similar type of school as us and 469 I don't know the details of but their robot mechanisms seemed like something anyone could design and build if they really wanted to. So I started learning cad and studying the best teams from all around the world. I poured countless hours into these different designs and strategies, all for the hope that our team can finally make it to Einstein field and compete on it. It wasn't just me that seemed to have this drive either. Our entire team seemed to be more heavily geared at not just making robots that work or would hold their own, but to make robots that could score effectively. Mechanisms designed to try and be the best in the world. We are still quite a ways away but it's still the driving factor to be the best in the world. Splitting the world championships in half would be devastating to my morale at least because it makes the goal unachievable. A team is not "world" champions if they only competed with half of the teams in world. Like others have said, you might as well call every event a world championship if that's the case. I don't see why degrading what I believe is one of the best events in the world just to give every team half the championship experience is a good thing. I really hope this change is revoked because it would seriously lessen my intent to stay in FIRST. They are not the only robotics competition around that's intended to inspire kids. But I'd like them to be the best nevertheless.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

BEGIN PEDANTIC NOTE
Just to clarify: IFI is a company that is a FIRST sponsor. IRI is an offseason competition in Indiana. The r and f are close on the keyboard and the acronyms are very similar but they are very different things.

END PEDANTIC NOTE


fully aware most arent reading, just posting

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm just surprised that they couldnt put FLL & FTC at one event, FRC at the other.

I'd also like to see a "super finals" where the winners of the two Championships face off to crown the true world champ.

seeing my question addressed and having that second thing happen would make me OK with this

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Every region gets districts... place some flex regionals in low population areas If needed. Progress teams to Champs from district championships. Low level teams get the "champ experience" at the district champs. High level teams still get to compete for a world title. Everyone wins.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Kudos!

It's about so much more than the robot.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

As a competitor, I'm very much against this decision.

I was drawn to FRC by the competition. In my freshman year of high school, my technology teacher showed the class some video of Team 20 competing in Breakaway. I saw Team 20's robot achieve a nail-biting win in the match I watched. It was awesome to me- students built a robot to compete with others- and not like Battlebots, where the only goal is destruction- but as respectful competitors in a sport-like environment.

I joined the team that fall and never looked back- not because I was all that interested in every part of the robot, but because FIRST is the best competition I've ever competed in.

I've been a part of competitive wrestling, swimming, diving, ultimate, and baseball, but FIRST is the best I've ever done- because anyone can win, all they have to do is be the smarter competitor, not have any inherent physical advantage. There's no name-calling in FIRST, there's little arrogance and no sabotage. FIRST showed me how to compete the right way in everything I do, not just robotics.

I'm now in college studying mechanical engineering at the Rochester Institute of Technology because of my FIRST experience. I wouldn't be here if FIRST wasn't a real competition. If FIRST goes through with this change, I see dozens of otherwise competitive, incredibly gifted students passing on the FIRST Robotics "Competition" because it's not a competition anymore at the highest levels.

You can't have two World Champions.

I hope if FIRST continues to pursue this solution, some other competition with full-size robots springs from the ashes FIRST leaves behind and gives students everywhere the competition they deserve.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm not sure I understand -- Detroit to Charleston, SC is 681 mi. as the crow flies. The circles absolutely should extend out beyond the coast if their radius is 750 mi.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

A quote from Don Bossi in the video:

Well, then FIRST is not a sport.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This is a bit of a volatile hyperbolic statement which doesn't state anything fundamentally new in the STEM education world, don't you think? The rest of your post hits home, IMO. This last statement is just a distraction to me.

Many FRC teams are part of larger programs that utilize multiple 'vehicles' already (have you seen recent Chairman's videos?). FIRST programs are great general programs and use a great set of ideals to achieve FIRST's goals, but the programs themselves do not address every STEM education-related need this country already has.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Setup a system with progressively bigger "zones" or "regions" with events. Create 4 "Sections" (N/S/E/W?) each with several districts in it. You compete at district events, go to district champs, go to section/region champs, and then go to world champs. Live stream all world champs events for teams that don't qualify, and keep the cost at $0 to attend workshops/watch matches if you aren't actively competing.

A 600 team champs event is great, but I feel it may be too big -- especially when a good portion of the teams going to champs this year "qualified" though the waitlist, instead of through winning (or being a finalist, etc.).

Re: Future First Championship News
 

The politically correct gloves are coming off for this one. I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest idea I have ever heard. This doesn't even deserve constructive criticism, as some have suggested. You're only seeing destructive criticism because there is absolutely nothing defensible about this decision. It has no merits, and I can't help but feel betrayed by having this decision sprung upon me.

When I go to compete at a World Championship, I expect it to be a WORLD (representing all regions) CHAMPIONSHIP (one alliance winning it all by beating the best). I want to compete against ALL of the best teams. Who cares about winning one of these championships when you didn't have to beat 1114, 254, 2056, 67, 987, 118, 33, 469, and the rest of the top tier teams to earn the title? You may have beaten some of them, but you'll never know if your alliance was actually the best. It's extremely disappointing for there not to be only one alliance at the end of the year that can say they rose above all the others.

Anyone in the FIRST organization that thinks this is a good idea clearly does not understand this program or share the same goals as many of the teams that participate in it, and they should not be allowed to hold their position any longer. Making a decision like this is the quickest way to ruin this program, and I don't want to see that happen. This is a time for brutal honesty because they have to understand that this is not acceptable.

Don't be delusional. This is a competition. As a student, I competed to win, and my team's success on a world stage is what inspired me. There's nothing I hate more than calling everyone winners and handing out participation trophies. (Maybe that's their current plan for 2020 and beyond.) To be as blunt as I can be, there are simply not enough highly qualified robots to justify having two world events. There aren't enough championship-caliber teams right now to even justify having 600 teams at the current championship.

I understand this program is growing and must be expanded in order to keep up with that growth. But this is not how you do it. I hope you realize this after seeing how disgusted people are with this decision.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Add me to the list of people that don't like this idea. Why North and South? I could maybe see East and West but not North and South. It is the same cost for our team to travel to Huston or Detroit or St Louis. So we are not saving any money.

IRI Time to step up your event. You will need to become bigger and better so you can host the true World Champions and see who comes out winner. Who's ready for a multiple field IRI?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

12 h 55 min (823.3 mi) via I-77 N

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=charleston+to+detroit+drive

Re: Future First Championship News
 

A sport is defined as, "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."

So, physical exertion aside, are you not entertained?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I sincerely hope you are right. I also hope we hear from FIRST soon about these expansion plans.

This feels like a step backwards, but it might be a step back in order to take many steps forwards.

Here's hoping.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Thanks for correcting me, my apologies to IFI :p Edited.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

You dont go from owning a Corvette to owning a Pinto so that you can eventually own a Ferrari.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

A water game would've been a better idea than this

Imho, one of the best aspects of FIRST is getting to go to one final event with the best teams from the world, from Australia to Israel. If they do this, the diversity of teams that anyone would get to play with is seriously limited. Worlds should be the best of the best, if you need to make more districts to get the best together than do that (they're not highly popular, but effective). Separation is not the answer. You just can't have two Einsteins

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm very surprised they didn't follow FTC and create 4 super regionals. Usually FTC is testing grounds for FRC.

I personally don't like the way worlds is set up this year. Sure, with 600 teams there you can see the best from the entire world, but you can only compete with 1/8th of them. The alliances that move on to Einstein will be based on luck of who gets paired in the same division. Imagine if 1114 and 254 get paired in the same division, and the other power house teams get separated into the other 7 divisions. You could almost determine who will win worlds this year by which teams get paired in the same division.

If I were to change the way FRC is structured, I would create 4 super regionals, then 1 world championship with only 1 division. I would also try to change an element of the game to make it more competitive, then allow teams to keep their robots unbagged (or allow significant unbag time) so they can properly adjust to this change. Basically FIRST-run IRI.

If FIRST wants to keep the competition part of FRC, they should never remove defense completely again. I still think 2011 MSC Finals were some of the most exciting matches I've seen. The #1 alliance was defeated by the #8 alliance based on strategy alone. Einstein that year was disappointing compared to MSC.


TL;DR

Create 4 super-regionals so many teams get the "worlds" experience.

Reduce the total number of teams that compete at worlds so there's one division of the best teams of the world.

Keep defense in FRC. Strategy is more exciting than a showcase. If I wanted a showcase, I would watch reveal videos.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

But you might sell your house and rent a few years until you can buy a better house.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Right -- all distances on that map are "as the crow flies." No time this morning to figure out how to map all places that are 12 hours by driving from a single point on the map, although that might be a fun exercise to try someday.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

After seeing Warren Central High School (where the Indiana State Championship was held), the buiding could definitely hold a two field event. It's only 15 minute away from Lawrence North High School, the current IRI venue. In case they want to expand...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I was right. I said FIRST would go back to Houston and they laughed at me...but I was right...

But in all seriousness, this really doesn't make sense. I would totally get it if FIRST split up FRC, FTC, and FLL and had FTC/FLL at a separate World Championship just for the sake of space, but why split all of the programs?

Also, it seems pretty strange to me that they're using different venues for everything in Houston. It's probably because of conflicts with the NBA and MLB seasons which makes sense but that's a lot of juggling.

And it also seems backwards to have the pits at Ford Field in Detroit and the matches in the Cobo center. Should be the other way around.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This might be one of the worst decisions FIRST has ever made. They were doing so good too, actually listening to what teams wanted. This definitely wasn't what people have been asking for. Districts >super regionals > world championship . That's the route we should be taking l. Not this.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

So you renovate your house and before the workers are even gone and you havent even seen how the renovations look yet, you are already putting the house on the market?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Considering Jared is part of 254 who has won the World Chairman's Award recently and has one of the most prestigious VEX programs in the world, I'm pretty sure he's aware of what you said.

EDIT: also a part of 341 when they won CCA.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

One of the supposed sentiments behind this change is to reduce over all costs for teams who have to travel far to get to champs, but this hardly makes it better for teams on the West Coast. The PNW district and California need to travel farther (or the same distance), which doesn't improve the situation for us. Not to mention, this changes almost nothing for a lot of the non-American subcontinent teams.

Another sentiment of this change is to make FRC more inclusive. It seems like a more cost-effective and inclusive solution to change most areas to districts, where teams who don't usually make it to Champs can attend district champs.

This decision shows the large disconnect between HQ and the actual teams. Hopefully something constructive can come out of this.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This just in....

FIFA, having heard about the new FIRST Robotics plan, have announced that for the next World Cup they will have 2 World Champions. This will allow more countries to compete and give everyone a more complete experience.

Upon winning, each Champion will be rewarded a half trophy and be allowed to put half of a star on their country's jersey.

NCAA also thinking of stopping the Basketball Tournament at the Sweet Sixteen and crowning 16 National Champions.

More to come....

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This is year 4 for me, but PNW's goals sound oh so much like MO's goals right now. There's a lot of teams around here absolutely clawing for any chance to allow a World Champions trophy to stay in Missouri after it's presented in St. Louis.

If the motivation is to inspire more people, I'm firmly of the opinion that lowering the bar with 2 championships is the wrong way to go about it. On the contrary, it would be more inspiring if more robots were able to effectively play the game at district and regional levels, and it might help with potential sponsors' perception of FIRST and FIRST teams. IMO this is why instead of lowering the bar, FIRST as an organization and we as a community should renew our focus on making sure that everyone in FIRST knows about the extensive intellectual resources available to them (CD, Simbotics.org, team358.org for labview, old robot footage, etc.).

While some find emulating other teams to be uninspiring or even taboo, the idea is to use team X's design/process/corn dog dispenser once and then being engineers, scientists, mathematicians, programmers, etc. find ways to improve upon it, and then report your findings back to the community.

While I know this post is long and a bit non-sequitur, it's my opinion (read: Not team 1806 or any of it's sponsors' opinions) that dividing the championship in 2, and having the "everyone gets a medal" mentality is harmful to the end goals of FIRST. However, maybe that's just because I fail to accept that such a high number of teams are completely incapable of building a robot that can put up more than say 20 points a match by themselves, with the caveat being that would have to be made aware of all the resources they have, and also be able to meet a reasonable time commitment.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I am VERY disappointed. I am grateful that my team gets to go to World's this year before this terrible plan goes in to effect. IRI will now be the true "World Championships".... If you want to have a "World Experience", go to the FIRST double championship. If you want to compete for world title, save your money and go to IRI.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Two points:

First of all, I think that a major gripe a lot of people have about having two championships is that there would be two world championship winning alliances. I think this could be resolved by having the winning alliance from Houston hurry on up to STL or DET the next week to battle it out in an actual final series. This could address a lot of people's concerns about having more than one winning alliance. Most of the Houston crowd, however, would have to watch the finals from home.

Second of all, I'd just like to echo the sentiment that there is a difference between being at THE World Championship, and being at one of the two world championships. At THE World Championship, you know that you are really getting the big picture. All the qualifying powerhouse teams and VIPs and FIRST-supporting celebrities and CEOs and politicians are there with you. When you hear Dean talk between matches on Einstein, you know that competition season is coming to a close for everyone.

It's going to be hard for me. I can't wait for the time when someone starts to talk about 2017 Einstein and I have to interject and ask "Which one?".

Also, I imagine that the STL/DET teams are going to watch HOU Einstein and know what strategies to employ. Seems weird that one championship will have an effect on the strategy of another championship.

http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2017cmp1
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2017cmp2

^ Can't wait for these events to happen! ^

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This is how I see this announcement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYmHYQPaHaw

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I have exactly the same feelings, word for word. Competition is what drew me to FIRST the most, and this just doesn't feel right.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Best idea I've heard yet.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Okay, on Monday, April 24th, 2017 I'll tell my future boss after I win the 2017 Houston Champs that I need to take an additional 2-3 days off and spend $1000+ on a last second trip to STL/DET

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Solution: regional winners and their wildcards go to Detroit. Everyone else to Houston, with double qualifiers going to Detroit. Treat Detroit as the world championship and Houston as an exhibition championship.

More people to championships. Actually increases the competition level at the main event. Think NCAA vs NIT.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I don't know all the details of the venue selection process that FIRST goes through but it would have been good if they asked the FIRST teams where they would like to have the two Championships.
They could have provided a list of potential host cities for both Championships and allowed teams to provide their input on where the event should be held.
I understand that FIRST may not be able to accommodate the first choice for all the teams due to cost or event logistics, but at least then they could get a feel for what the teams would want and the teams would be able to provide some say in where to have the events.

I wish that FIRST would allow for teams to be able to select what Championship event they can attend if the team qualifies. For some teams the events are both going to necessitate air travel. If you are already getting on a plane it may not matter as much what city you land in.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

If they're having two large events, they could probably afford to compensate the team for shipping and transit costs.

As I read the announcement and saw they were 2 weeks apart, I was sure the "true world champion" logistics were going to be at the bottom as it made perfect sense.

Here's how I think they could fix this:
1) Crown winner of CMP1, give winning alliance enough money ($10-$15k) to pay for flights/shipment/time to get to CMP2. Bag all winning robots _immediately_ so that they play in the same mechanical state as they were in after their last match. FIRST could probably handle shipping of the winning robots themselves to the 2nd CMP venue.
2) Play CMP2 normally, crown their winner.
3) Immediately following the CMP2 einstein matches, a final showdown between CMP1 and CMP2 winners to crown world champ.

It wouldn't solve the "not getting to see the other best robots in the world in the flesh" problem, but it solves the "no true world champ" problem fairly.

Benefits of my proposed arrangement:
1) Crown a true world champ
2) Minimal cost increase: The CMP1 alliance (coaches/mentors/drivers) would only _need_ to be flown in for the Saturday of CMP2 so that they could compete in the final Einstein matches. They might not even need hotels.
3) Fair playoff between the two winning alliances. Since the CMP1 alliance would've been bagged in whatever state they won in, both alliances would be a similar level of bedragglement.
4) Since the CMP1 winners would be known, FIRST could talk up the upcoming showdown, and CMP2 competitors would know what they're up against. Similarly, the CMP1 team would have the time to strategize and optimize their game plan.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I am really, really sad by this announcement. I don't even know how to start explaining the feeling that in my senior year, we won't be competing at champs but "half champs." For me, a huge part of FRC is seeing powerhouse teams on the field and saying "someday, we want to be them." How can we see how much we can improve and how far we have to go if we never see these top teams? This is my second year with FRC; we'll be in this new system during my last year on the team. I'm so glad I've known FIRST before this change, and I feel so bad for all the rookies that year who will never experience that level of competition, that level of excitement, and that level of inspiration.

I know what the arguments for this are, besides the geographic and cost benefits (if they exist...). Bringing more teams to champs is inspiring for them, and pushes them to do better. FIRST is not just about the robot. It's more than just about winning. I don't get how this helps those points at all.

Seeing the best of the best is inspiring and pushes us all do do better. It pushes us to build a better robot, to want to win, and in that process we learn more than we ever would if we accepted "good enough" as our goal.

Giving out more medals doesn't make everyone a winner, it just takes away from the teams that truly are. I understand that more teams in elims, more teams on Einstein, and more teams that win is a great experience. But I really hope that if my team ever gets this chance, we get it though our hard work and success on the field, not because more teams need to be picked and we just "good enough." Lowering the level of competition makes average acceptable, and makes aiming for more harder to push for.


Please, FIRST, don't do this. Give us back champs. Give us back the experience of seeing all the amazing teams in the world, the feeling of watching those top teams play and saying "someday we want to do that." Give us back the best method of inspiration we have.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Money wouldnt be the biggest problem. Its time. Time off for students and time off for mentors. Which, for mentors, also means lost income.