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-   -   Future First Championship News (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136491)

Nate Laverdure 09-04-2015 16:45
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by efoote868 (Post 1468638)
Nothing prevents teams or individuals from showing up to the championship event as spectators.

edit: I hope you all realize I mean FIRST rules - championship is free and open to the public.
As an aside: CMP isn't all that welcoming to the uninitiated spectator. Per a recent email blast, all attendees at the 2015 Championship (students, mentors, spectators, etc.) will be required to register in order to gain access to "activities."
Quote:
Attendee Registration: FIRST is requiring that all Championship attendees (students, mentors, spectators, etc.) register for the Championship event. Attendee registration grants participants access to activities and event transportation. We encourage you to register your team members in advance to save time when you arrive on-site at the Championship. You can complete attendee registration here: http://registration.experientevent.c...aultTeams.aspx

Alex2614 09-04-2015 16:46
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSchneider (Post 1468332)
Every region gets districts... place some flex regionals in low population areas If needed. Progress teams to Champs from district championships. Low level teams get the "champ experience" at the district champs. High level teams still get to compete for a world title. Everyone wins.
Yes! I don't understand why that is so hard for many to understand! Why can't we build up our current regionals/region championships as a true championship experience instead of inviting everyone to huge world events? I would be perfectly happy if my team was in districts and we only advanced as far as our district/region championship, especially if it was built up as a huge "experience" event.

dcarr 09-04-2015 16:48
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Boehm_329 (Post 1468650)
I do have a question about how this will effect international teams. It would seem easier to sell attending THE World Championship than attending A Championship event to sponsors and administrators.
This concern is certainly not limited to international teams.

Kevin Sevcik 09-04-2015 16:49
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1468545)
Hilarious, yet sadly not surprising.
Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs. EDIT: As noted by JVN, it's unfair of me to imply Cory et. al. are assuming everyone should know about 254 and 1114. I retract that implication.

Okay, I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, because I work and I can't spend all afternoon keeping track of this, so forgive me if I'm not up to the minute on the debate. You can all mark me down as in favor of the change. Here's some comments:
  1. Can we please try to be adults about this? Calling HQ enmasse and harrassing staffers there seems childish. Especially on Thursday of district champs. Especially when people are trying to work out actual problems for getting to the 2015 Champs. HQ isn't going to change this policy over a single day of CD exploding. You may as well settle in for a long fight if you want to fight this. Meanwhile, stop causing problems for normal teams.
  2. No one is suggesting giving out awards in the KoP or trophies for participating in Champs. Suggesting FRC is moving to that is childish, stop. If you really think having two best in the world alliances instead of one is equivalent to participation trophies, I invite you to congratulate the Champs Finalists on their participation trophies.
  3. Really, complaining about two world champions not being champions is unpersuasive to me in general. MLB has the NL and AL Championships and then proceeds to a World Series that only involves US teams + the occasional Canadian team. Not-actually-world-championships are a time honored tradition in sports. If you think this will confuse the general public, you may need to get out more.
  4. It's laughable to declare that Champs was already deciding the top 3 teams in the world currently anyways, due to divisions. Einstein typically doesn't even have the top 4 alliances on it thanks to some divisions being packed.
  5. We already have multiple EI winners at Champs. I'm finding it difficult to believe that WFA winners and Chairman's winners are going to feel cheated because someone else is recognized for extreme excellence in the same year. Petulantly whining that now you're not the absolute best at spreading the message seems out of character.
  6. Champs is already pretty darned elite. About 33% of teams at Lone Star have EVER been to Champs before this year. I suspect this is fairly representative. You want to complain about not seeing all your favorite inspiring teams at Houston Champs? What about the 66% of FRC teams that haven't EVER seen these teams?
  7. OTOH, Champs is already watered down. Waitlist teams, 2nd picks. 2nd pick wildcards. Are we really pretending that Champs is the absolute best of the best? Super Regionals may have gotten it closer, but you'd still have 2nd picks riding tailcoats in.
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.

Steven Smith 09-04-2015 16:51
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This whole discussion and the problems it raises does put in perspective all my concerns with how Texas is going to be ready for the district model by 2017.

I know it is pure fantasy, but OK FIRST... we call your bluff. We'll put in the time to be ready for districts by 2017 like you asked... use the Houston venue for Texas state champs, and we can all go to worlds in Detroit ;) Deal?

Mike Martus 09-04-2015 16:52
Re: Future First Championship News
 
All I can think of is WOW! I never expected this.

I am waiting for someone to create a Yes or No poll (unless I missed it)?

Siri 09-04-2015 16:52
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 1468635)
Since the venues are already booked, what if we had FRC in one venue and FLL/FTC in the other. As I understand, FLL and FTC already don't have enough teams at champs. I know here in Arizona, we are only able to send a team to championships bi yearly for FLL(Not sure if this has changed). If FTC and FLL had their own venue, they could have more teams that go to their championship event so that it isn't so much of a problem. FLL and FTC have more representation and FRC keeps its world championships. What does everyone else think about this?
I don't mind it, but realize that FIRST probably would've had to plan for this contingency in the negotiations. Getting the Worlds bid is a significant competition for cities (remember when STL won), and it's likely that FIRST's negotiations included verbiage that would make this difficult (even if they didn't mention FRC directly, which I'd imagine they did). This isn't a shot at FLL or FTC, I just wouldn't count on them being interchangeable.

MechEng83 09-04-2015 16:54
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botsup (Post 1468539)
Just called FIRST and was on hold a LONG time. Person I finally spoke to:

-Had never been to a single competition, let alone champs.
-Kept telling me this was great because it would be so much less expensive to get to champs for everyone (um...no).
-Had never heard of 254 or 1114, did not even know they were teams that I was referring to.
-Had no idea what VEX was.
-Sounded like they were frazzled from all the calls.
I don't have time to read through the 100 posts since this went up, but I'd give FIRST a pass on this one. They employ some local folks who aren't necessarily robot fanatics to answer calls and take care of administrative duties. These aren't decision makers or people who have the means to attend events around the world.

216Robochick288 09-04-2015 16:54
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 1468635)
Since the venues are already booked, what if we had FRC in one venue and FLL/FTC in the other. As I understand, FLL and FTC already don't have enough teams at champs. I know here in Arizona, we are only able to send a team to championships bi yearly for FLL(Not sure if this has changed). If FTC and FLL had their own venue, they could have more teams that go to their championship event so that it isn't so much of a problem. FLL and FTC have more representation and FRC keeps its world championships. What does everyone else think about this?

On paper I like this Idea, but just like having 2 championship competitions it has issues. I know several teams that have FLL, FTC, and FRC teams going to worlds. If you split the parties, suddenly the teams have to deal with the overlapping mentors. It could end up being a real pain for teams, maybe even going down to telling highschoolers that they cant go due to lack of chaperones because you dont want to crush the excitement of LL kids that got to go to one location while you were assigned to the other, or crushing some poor LL kid's excitement saying "Sorry FRC is a bigger investment".

FIRST has certainly found themselves in a weird situation. I certainly hope that more things get fleshed out. I am feeling skeptical of the idea, and Im saddened by the saturation of "Everyone is a winner" in competitions as of late. I hope we arent traveling down that path. While yes, the competition is about inspiring, inspiring others isn't what most highschool students are in the program for.

FIRST, I love you dearly. You are the reason that I am alive right now. I know its hard to run such a giant program, but please hear out our concerns. I was skeptical about "woodie math" back with rankings in Breakaway, I dont like the removal of the win/loss, but I dont feel like splitting our family into areas is harsh.

It hurts bad enough in Michigan when I cant see teams from other states or countries (I was lucky enough my team traveled to Canada anyhow), but not being able to see half the competitive field- as well as my friends from there- hurts. I have worked with several teams via Skype, and I look forward to seeing them all at worlds... if they dont get put into another competition. I feel like this change will limit the amount of collaboration there will be with teams that are far away.

I also hate to boast about the state, because there are lots of other places that pump out good teams, but Michigan is crazy as far as team skill goes. It would be a right shame to see teams from Michigan, Canada, MAR and whatnot seperated from Teams over in Cali and Texas. You cant ignore the fact that you are separating some of the most insane competition we have ever seen.

Ill give you the benifit of the doubt. I need more information until I am willing to pass my ultimate judgement on this, but as someone whos only been around since 2009 (I suddenly realise this is longer ago than I was thinking it was) I am NOT a fan of what is on the table right now. I will continue to support FIRST through changing times. I know that FIRST is a huge competition and is paving the way for competitions like it in the future. There has to be a first time for everything, and you cant expect everything to be perfect, but I feel like there may be better options than what have been put out.

Im curious to see if we can get FIRST to explain its reasons behind 2 World competitions as apposed to super-regionals or anything else like that.

Anupam Goli 09-04-2015 16:55
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1468656)
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
Excuse me sir, you've seemed to dropped this microphone of yours. Do you want it back? ;)

I think everyone's frustration is really at how we were all somewhat blindsided by this announcement. We knew that championships was evolving, but a change from 600 teams to "2 championships, multiple cities, region locked" is just a large step. There was no announcement of potential changes, no feedback or ideas bounced from the community. Had there even been a rumor of 2 championship events earlier, I'm sure we wouldn't be this upset at the moment. It reminds me of the backlash against microsoft when the Xbox One was first announced...

Electronica1 09-04-2015 16:57
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Any ideas of why they chose now to announce this? The timing seems a tad bit odd.

KeeganP 09-04-2015 16:57
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1468656)
Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs.

Okay, I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, because I work and I can't spend all afternoon keeping track of this, so forgive me if I'm not up to the minute on the debate. You can all mark me down as in favor of the change. Here's some comments:
  1. Can we please try to be adults about this? Calling HQ enmasse and harrassing staffers there seems childish. Especially on Thursday of district champs. Especially when people are trying to work out actual problems for getting to the 2015 Champs. HQ isn't going to change this policy over a single day of CD exploding. You may as well settle in for a long fight if you want to fight this. Meanwhile, stop causing problems for normal teams.
  2. No one is suggesting giving out awards in the KoP or trophies for participating in Champs. Suggesting FRC is moving to that is childish, stop. If you really think having two best in the world alliances instead of one is equivalent to participation trophies, I invite you to congratulate the Champs Finalists on their participation trophies.
  3. Really, complaining about two world champions not being champions is unpersuasive to me in general. MLB has the NL and AL Championships and then proceeds to a World Series that only involves US teams + the occasional Canadian team. Not-actually-world-championships are a time honored tradition in sports. If you think this will confuse the general public, you may need to get out more.
  4. It's laughable to declare that Champs was already deciding the top 3 teams in the world currently anyways, due to divisions. Einstein typically doesn't even have the top 4 alliances on it thanks to some divisions being packed.
  5. We already have multiple EI winners at Champs. I'm finding it difficult to believe that WFA winners and Chairman's winners are going to feel cheated because someone else is recognized for extreme excellence in the same year. Petulantly whining that now you're not the absolute best at spreading the message seems out of character.
  6. Champs is already pretty darned elite. About 33% of teams at Lone Star have EVER been to Champs before this year. I suspect this is fairly representative. You want to complain about not seeing all your favorite inspiring teams at Houston Champs? What about the 66% of FRC teams that haven't EVER seen these teams?
  7. OTOH, Champs is already watered down. Waitlist teams, 2nd picks. 2nd pick wildcards. Are we really pretending that Champs is the absolute best of the best? Super Regionals may have gotten it closer, but you'd still have 2nd picks riding tailcoats in.
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
It appears that lobbying for change, publicly expressing your opinion, and talking with others about change makes you a child. In fact, just go along with whatever happens, because there's no point in trying to change anything -- let it all happen as it is.

Marc S. 09-04-2015 16:57
Re: Future First Championship News
 
With all the hate against having 2 Championships, I wonder if FIRST will actually consider taking this back.

In my opinion, the answer should be this: Remove regional competitions, transfer everyone over to the District system. This way we could have district championship events (set up to be smaller versions of the current cmp) with the top teams still earning a spot at the World Championship. This would make the champs experience far more obtainable for a lot more teams without removing the prestige of the World championship top tier stage.

Ian Curtis 09-04-2015 16:57
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1468656)
Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.
The other thing we ought to remember is that attending the Championship is insanely expensive. Even if FIRST made registration free, it would be insanely expensive and many teams would never be able to raise that kind of money to spend on airplane tickets and hotels, when they could better spend that money running a sustainable competitive robotics team. We can serve this 66% at a significantly lower cost with District Championships or their equivalent. You can get 90% of the inspiration for 20% of the cost.

xitaqua 09-04-2015 17:01
Re: Future First Championship News
 
We look forward to this new dual championship framework.
I will work with COPUS and see what they think us sponsoring a team.

2015 Demo Robot 4K (Middle School - 7th grade)

2016 Demo Robot 4K (Middle School - 8th grade)

2017 Houston - Rookie Year
2018 Houston - 18K Budget
2019 Houston - 14K Budget
2020 Houston - 10K Budget

Cheers,
Xi Taqua Robato.


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