Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm not a huge fan of this idea. My team has qualified via Chairman's for the past three years, and while we're not usually competitive in St. Louis with the robot, that doesn't mean that we don't want to play with the best robots in the world. If the idea is to keep Chairman's as the most prestigious award in FRC, separating the Chairman's winners out seems like the wrong approach.

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Yes it seems quite unfeasible. People have talked about it in this thread and dismissed it as well (I suck at reading through threads before posting. :() It would be very hard to get it to work, even if it was just a Saturday trip and paid for by FRC. Logistics just for the teams would be crazy.

There's always IRI!!

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Didn't Include chairman's because otherwise the second chairman's award lost a lot of its integrity. Send chairman's to Detroit though. Doesn't matter. The split needs to be made by some Performance metric. Not by geography if you want to save the integrity of the awards

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Wonder if any of the great teams would just skip a half champs to play at IRI.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

CMP1 team could be flown out of their hometowns on Friday evening, and returned by Sunday. No school or work time missed. They only _need_ to be present for the 3 matches on Saturday afternoon. In a really tight situation, you could probably make it a one-day trip (in by early afternoon on Saturday, gone the moment the matches end).

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I would honestly love a full disclosure by FIRST to see the list of "positives" they found that told them to go ahead with this.

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Before we all jump the gun, a good guy frank blog is probably in order. If the end goal is this, is it worth a few awkward transition years?

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Jared, you said everything I've wanted to say and better than I could ever say it. I thought that our goals were in line with those of FIRST, clearly they are not. I will be there to help find or make the vehicle we need to get there if need be.

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The difficulty with this would be ensuring that every winner from the first event can make it to the second. Currently, it's not a big deal if this happens from regional --> champs, because alliances are broken up and every team starts with a clean slate. If you're just going to take the winning alliance, you'd have to ensure that all members are able to attend, or else it wouldn't really be a true championship matchup. And the alternative, putting the winners in the mix with all the other teams, would obviously make the first event completely second class.

Perhaps a better model would be what VEX does with their "US Open" championship event. This event takes place a few weeks before the official championship, and invitations are given to teams who almost, but didn't quite, qualify for the world championship. The event is near championship scale in its own right, and gives teams that experience, but it doesn't suggest itself to be of equal standing to the World Championship. I believe that in the past, but not anymore, teams which performed well at the US Open could accept reserved slots at the World Championship a few weeks later, if the financial/travel burden was worth it for them.

It's important for us to propose reasonable alternatives to FIRST alongside our concerns, if we hope to inspire change. Clearly, FIRST perceives the access level of the championship experience to be a problem, and the current model to be unsustainable. I think that they've made a huge mistake in their solution, and we should work to figure out an alternative in the two years before the changes go into effect.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

You think that if they talk about this plan at St. Louis this year during opening/closing ceremonies that they would get a resounding "Boo!" from the audience? I know it's not GP, but I think FIRST needs to start listening to teams.

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I dont think we should "boo" but I'd say not a single clap would be better; just be completely silent.

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You can say anything to the crowd and they will cheer though.

You could announce we're doubling the price of champs, in order to make it MORE AWSOME! and the crowd would cheer.

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My feelings exactly. Eloquently stated. Remember folks, you are the customer and you speak with your pocketbooks. Just another attempt of instilling "no robot left behind" mentality. (Sarcasm warning!) Give everyone an award, give everyone the title of world champion........... The more you dilute the more meaningless it all becomes.

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Cheer and probably throw some paper airplanes.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

That's probably a better idea.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Quite appropriate given this "lead balloon" announcement.

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I have read all 13+ pages of posts and not a single one is saying "great idea", not even one is mildly positive, most being very negative. I would venture to proclaim the FIRST community is united (a hard thing to do) in viewing this as a bad idea.

SO>>>>

We can write more posts on Delphi, or we can take action! After all, this is OUR
organization. If there are no end users of the program, there is no FIRST. I for one am calling FIRST headquarters today, along with sending them an email, and an old fashioned snail mail letter explaining my displeasure and the reasons for it.

PLEASE JOIN ME! We do NOT have to just grumble and accept this!

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Was thinking the NCAA and NIT thing.

Actually crazy outlandish solution.

Let's come up with conferences (districts) for the different areas for FIRST.

Winning Alliance at DCMPs get automatic bids, as do chairman's and EI.

Make a bunch of these conferences, have a good set of teams, and then the rest fill in by rankings or at large bids.

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The word "hate" and all the "isms" words get thrown around way too much these days. "Hate" is a very strong word. All I see in this thread is disgust and disappointment and a little hope here and there - entirely appropriate. And this is just a game and/or philanthropy. Keep it coming, let FIRST know what you think!

That being said, not sure what I think yet...

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I'm pretty sure that's been the idea for years....

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This quote above seems to encompas the feelings almost all of us have.

In little over two weeks 600 teams we be in one place. Every one of these teams can have an impact. What if teams that are against two "worlds" some how prominently posting their pits some sort of message showing that they are actively against this new system?

this maybe me just being all heated up right now but it's an idea.

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This has worked well for RECF for the past few years.
I know many teams that travel to the US Open and VEX worlds ! Even the VEX summer games was a neat idea.

Essentially IRI has become one of these types of events for FIRST.

If your team wins FRC Champs or IRI, then you have won a major championship.

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I know I'm late to the party here so I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts yet but this came to my mind almost immediately after reading the announcement.

By limiting which Championship event teams can go to based on geographic regions, you are pretty much guaranteeing (at least through 2020) that there will be two main groups of "powerhouse" teams that will never get to compete against one another. With a Championship event in Detroit, you will see Michigan powerhouse teams like 67 and 33 with Canada powerhouse teams like 1114 and 2056. In Houston, you will have teams from Texas like 118 and 148 with, more than likely, west coast teams like 254 and 978 (Las Vegas isn't exactly the coast but you get my point). These teams are almost always the best of the best and seeing them compete against one another is one of (IMO) the best parts of the World Championship event. By forcing them to compete in separate World Championship events, matches between these teams is something we may never see except in the off season (IRI).

Another issue I have is placing one of these Championship events in an area where the district structure is already present. This year 64 teams from Michigan are qualifying for the Championship event to be spread over 8 divisions. Michigan teams have been competing against each other all year. At the Championship event, they will be spread out and get to compete against the best teams from around the world. With a Detroit championship and only 4 divisions, are they going to decrease now the number of teams in Michigan (a growing district) that qualify for the Championship event? If they don't, then the Detroit championship will be saturated with Michigan teams, diminishing the "World Championship" feel. And instead of playing the best teams from around the world, now they are playing the best teams from the Midwest and Canada.

I agree that the World Championship event is growing and it is a great thing. I have no problem with two championship events but I would propose a few changes.

1. Don't limit teams to championship events based on their geographic region.
2. Hold both events in the same weekend.
3. Take the top 4 alliances from each championship event and have them compete at a 1 day event the following week in a third location.

This gives you 8 alliances of the best robots in the world to compete in one final tournament. Invite the Chairman's award finalists, etc. to the event and make it a big deal. No qualification matches, just the best of the best competing for the crown. This gives you your World Champions, your Chairman's Award winner, etc.

It wouldn't have to have the huge pit areas like a normal championship event. You could but it in a basketball arena and make a huge deal out of it. Give the best of the best a stage to play on and the marketing and FIRST's exposure would take care of itself.

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I think we were well on our way to having teams compete for more championships by moving to Districts. At PNW last weekend and last year we had a great time and the competition was really fun. We got to crown champions and had GREAT robots there. It was exciting and we now have our District Champions. Each District can do this... and then send along a great set of robots to St. Louis.

If we stay the course and get everyone on the District bandwagon, this can happen for every team. MANY more teams get to go to District Championships and compete.

Trying to say that EVERYONE needs to be able to compete for CMP is ridiculous we simply can't host an event for everyone. These District CMP events are exciting and very much like competing in a division at St. Louis. The competition is very similar. to Divisional play at CMP.

If we want everyone to be able to experience CMP once why not give everyone a "golden ticket" that would be redeemable in any year that the team desires.... they could go to CMP and get the experience. It would give their team a boost. Some teams would use it early some later when the team needs it but it would be a chance for that team to utilize it as they see fit. I think that the 2nd or 3rd year is the critical time for teams and that may be the time to use their ticket.

Not a perfect solution of course but let's stay the course and get more areas on the District Bandwagon.


OK..caveat.... our team was on the winning alliance in our District CMP the last two years.... but I don't think that makes this argument any less powerful.

Other District teams should weigh in on this... I think you will find it supported by most.... District CMP costs less.... travel is easier....

the only downside is not being able to play against teams from other parts of the world. but perhaps interdistrict play might help in that regard when it starts happening on a larger basis.

I know this is not a perfect idea.... some teams will always have issues..so I apologize to them already.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

As much as I hate the Super Regional Set up that FTC has, I feel like it would have been a better idea than this.

Reasons I don't like the Super Regionals FTC has:
-Extra costs (registration, travel, hotels, food)
- Top teams from different states that get a bad pairing of qualification matches, which don't make it to world then. (Some can relate to this I think)
- Time off work/school. (This hurts after burning through paid time off when you factor in qualifiers, regionals, super regionals, Worlds)

Even with the reasons listed above, I feel it would be a better option than going with two different events. Phoenix AZ to St Louis is 1457 miles, compared to Phoenix AZ to Houston which is 1172 miles, not much less...

You lose the true feel of a WORLD championship. I would like to compete with everyone around the world, not just the South portion of the US/World....

I've been to 4 (5 this year) World Championships. My best year still has to be my first year as a freshman. Smaller, and more family feeling. It just doesn't feel right anymore. FRC decided to go up to 600 teams this year, to allow more teams to come to the WORLD championship, yet the FTC community is still only 128 of the best teams.

FTC has 3799 Active teams, only 128 go to the World Championships, 288 go to Super Regionals...

FRC has 3245 Active teams, 600 go the World Championships, No Super Regionals....

Why FIRST?? In short, have FRC go to a Super Regional Setup like FTC, as much as I hate it. It seems like the lesser of two evils... I want to know the real World Champion.

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Always amazed when high school students speak greater wisdom than the adults in charge. Great job young woman!

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The issue is that CD normally has a pretty united set of views and opinions, and are the ones who are inspired by success, seeing those better than us succeed, and pushing ourselves to be better and to succeed. It means in general, I've seen CD like more mentor involvement, be more in support of cheesecaking, and like alliance selections from the top 8, and other topics more than what I've seen from other students and mentors, especially those not on CD.

I completely agree with you and I don't like this at all. But there are views not represented here held by many, perhaps even a (silent) majority. I'm willing to bet that some teams will be thrilled to get a chance to be at champs even if it's only half of it, even if personally I'd rather my team not be able to attend because we didn't do well enough instead of getting a spot because there are more spots and the bar was lowered. I'd guarantee you that many, many people will not agree with my view though.

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I was referencing the culture change aspect of FRC (robotics as a sport that appeals to non-participants, exciting finals matches on ESPN brought about by an incredibly high level of competition, building big and fast robots that make you say "wow!", etc.).

I don't think it is hyperbole to say that large decisions like this make me (and the majority of mentors with whom I have already spoken or who have posted about this) question FIRST's long term vision for this currently-unique-to-FRC idea, and open to the thought that FRC may at some point in the future no longer be the best fit for that idea.

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Pretty sure Rachel isn't a dude...

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Young woman you mean.

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(emphasis mine)

THIS! FIRST needs to learn that they can't just make these kinds of decisions without consulting the community! Let them know what you think!

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The posters name is Rachel, I think it is a girl.

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I agree. ;)

Thanks though, to Sunshine and to both of you for catching it before I even saw the post...
EDIT: And to Munchskull and to whoever else may end up replying.

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I see both good and bad things with this.

1. I think it's great of FIRST to take into account all those teams who qualify for Worlds, but the expense is just to high to get STL. This year, we qualify for worlds, but the expense is huge. By having a venue in Houston, that makes things alot easier for teams in the neighbouring states.

2. I do see the argument that there should have been a venue on the west coast, the team count is higher on the 2 coasts.

3. One huge issue I have is that there will be duplicate awards passed out at both events. I understand that FIRST really isn't about winning and such. But by doing this, it kind of takes away from the award it self. Soon, every team you see at regionals will most likely end up at Worlds. Which might also put teams into the whole mentality, "We don't have to try so hard. There are going to be 1000+ Spots for championships, we're bound to get one".

4. I really hope that the winning teams at both championships can compete together for the true title of "World Champions".

I really do appreciate FIRST for trying to address the growth needs and I think it's swell that they're trying to come up with solutions for problems, But this wasn't the best solution for any problem.

There is my bit on it.

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I am still at the point that I am hoping I will wake up to a bad dream.

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As great as Frank's blog is, FIRST seems like an unnecessary opaque organisation. How was this decision made: who did they talk to, what were the options and what are the priorities?

I would love to know more about how FIRST makes decisions: from GDC to Big picture strategy.

There seems to be a large amount of passionate negative reaction, and a fantastic opportunity in three weeks to manifest that constructively. I think (and not as any form of team representative) the idea of a visual protest (a poster at each pit or a petition) is a great idea.

From FIRST's perspective, I can understand if they want a cultural shift away from sports, or a sports-oriented culture. But as others have said, that side of FRC attracts a lot of people (including myself) to the program, so it would be great (and respectful to the community) to admit that up front if that was indeed the case. Especially as it's a tagline they are promoting in the announcement:

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I'm going to leave a few things here that basically encompass just part of the feelings I'm having:

Philadelphia to St. Louis: 2 hr, 25 min
Philadelphia to Houston: 3 hr, 30 min
Philadelphia to Detroit: 1 hr, 35 min

Detroit is a winner, right? No. Is everyone overlooking the fact that Detroit is the most dangerous city in America? Its clear that the people making these decisions have never once in their life chaperoned 50 high school students through a large metropolitan environment.

"Violent crime rate: 2,137 per 100,000 residents
The Motor City tops the list of America's Most Dangerous Cities for the fourth straight year thanks to a stubborn problem mostly with gang-related violence. Violent crimes fell 10% last year but are still running five times the national average."
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/

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Well I guess tell them you don't like it if you're going to champs. That stay silent during the announcement thing is going to be awkward though.

I don't feel as strongly as many do (I wouldn't quit FRC) but it's worse than the alternative in my opinion. And honestly I was more upset about the location than the model initially.:rolleyes:

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My Email to FIRST , limited to 255 characters.

Please do not follow through on your plan to change to multiple top level championships for FRC.

Instead, please maintain a single world championship and instead turn your non world championship venues into super districts.

It will be hard to motivate kids after next year since they will no longer be working towards being the best, instead they will be trying to hit some quasi defined goal of being highly ranked in the country.

Calling them next

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This is fantastic news! The students I've seen seem to be questioning the 'everyone is a winner' mentality lately, and this is the perfect opportunity to reinflate the theme for at least a generation (4 years) to come! When the next group of students catches on, we can do as another poster suggested and just stop the event with 'super regionals'. In all, I think we can perpetuate this for another 6-8 years before everyone gives up on FIRST all together!

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While I'd rather it be another location ;) instead of putting out scare statistics, I'd like to publicly ask the FIRST Detroiters what they think of this development? What does Detroit have to offer teams from around the world and out of state? I'm sure they have a unique perspective.

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:rolleyes: But you are missing the obvious attractions: "Each city has been chosen with our visitors in mind and each location – St. Louis, Houston, and Detroit has many opportunities for outdoor and recreational activities, as well as arts and cultural experiences, and simply sightseeing."

Your point is well-stated and I can only surmise that facilities outweighed student safety in the calculus.

Still waiting for FIRST HQ to chime in...come on Frank, we know you are out there...

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This years game has been jokingly referred to as Sr. Jr. FLL, but with this change, it seems like that's exactly where FIRST wants to move FRC.

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i cant tell if this is sarcasm or something meant to be positive...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

You are right to put it out to the group and I would not hesitate to visit Detroit on my own in an instant. I'm just pointing out that surely safety has to be a concern. Towards the end there in Atlanta I had a few altercations of my own with our team walking the streets mid-evening. I wouldn't want any recurrence of those types of situations.

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Not sure exactly who wrote this, but this is the post on the official FRC Blog.

That's it.

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I am aware that Mr. Bossi is the lead on the communique. However, Frank seems to be the man taking the measure of the FRC community and responding to its concerns....

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This makes much more sense. Given that Champs is insanely large with 3 programs what would be your (or the Poofs') vision for FRC's future?

I only ask this specifically from the Poofs because (most) every post I've read from a Poofs mentor that has been proactive has produced insanely good ideas (some of which we don't realize how good until much later). The Poofs also produce incredible results when you put energy and focus into an effort. I think it's a fair statement that many teams already ask themselves "What Would the Poofs Do?" for many strategic and design decisions, so what would the Poofs do here?

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That was Frank's blog. Given how short and non-informative the post is, I'm not sure it was written by Frank.

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I think it's pretty obvious that the same people behind the concept of this year's FR_ game are behind this "championship" idea.

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I'm not sure how I feel about all of this at the moment. As a mentor, I have a lot of concerns and I haven't spoken to my students about it yet, which will help me make up my mind. Their input is by far the most valuable.

I did kind of figure that FIRST was going to have to split the big event in two after going through some of the nonsense last year and this year with hotel booking in St Louis. It's just too large for a single city at this point.

I'm just not sure that FIRST have fully thought through this plan but beyond that, it seems like they have left too many questions unanswered at this point. I think what we all want is a state of the union address from Kamen and Co that explains the thought process and the long term plan for FIRST and in particular, for FRC.

There is a lot at play here. From students and safety in a severely poverty stricken city, to an entire generation of FRC students who are becoming mentors, to a non-defensive game this year, to not being able to see some great friends we've met over the years at these events for a while... It's a lot to take in. I also suspect some of the frustration is because of the timing of this announcement.

I'll reserve final judgement and letter writing until after this season is over and the dust has settled but... It's hard for me to buy into the Olympic comparisons they are making when they are talking about having two sets of winners. You can't make everyone a winner... I think it takes away from the inspiration. That being said, two events was going to happen at some point.

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Wow 7 pages in barely 3 hours. Oops 17 pages. Post 254. Suddenly I am feeling something strange. :)
Sorry I have not read all of them. So sorry if this is a me too.

First (a). I am amazed that they kept this a secret. Also a little input to the people it effects would have been be nice.

First (b) I am not looking as forward to a 600 team worlds as years past. It is going to be a logistical nightmare. Especial for the one responsible for transport the pits. Other have expressed concerned about QF matches with 64 team in the dome. So something had to give.

First (C) This it the last year for the undisputed worlds FRC champion!!! So bring your A game

First (D) I numbered this post to be consistent with the new world order.

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Frank is the director of FRC, not the greater FIRST community which includes FLL and FTC.

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I was just thinking the same thing -- if 254 were to "redo" FRC, what would they change?

Moving to a more broad question, what would happen if there was an FRC Advisory committee comprised of WFA winners from teams that helped direct the future of FRC? They wouldn't necessarily be on the GDC or anything, just helping to direct the future of FRC as would be best for the teams. Thoughts?

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My deep apologies Rachel. Again, your wisdom is greater than this old man's.

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"There's plenty of room on the top for everyone" ... it's not a top if everyone is there.

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I spent all morning being too angry/disappointed/stunned to be able to even post.

Still probably can't sum it up better than Jared did, so I will largely echo his comments.

It's amazing how fast FIRST was able to burn two years worth of goodwill fostered by Frank's openness and approachability, in one fell swoop. I fear we will look back and mark today as the day FRC began it's death throes.

FIRST has shown their true colors. They don't really care about the team experience. They don't even understand what the team experience is. If they cared, or understood what was important, they would have sought feedback before they decided to throw out the entire plan for expansion that they rolled out to us on their country-wide tour in the offseason 2-3 years ago.

Instead they chose a plan that will give them the most registration dollars, is just as inconvenient for teams on the west and east coasts as it was before, and will severely limit the opportunities for inspiration when students are not exposed to teams from other geographic locations.

We are paying FIRST large amounts of money. We are the customer. FIRST seemed like they were listening to our concerns (to some extent), but until there exists an alternative for us to take our dollars to, they know we are their hostages. The only way we can get the change we want is to take our dollars elsewhere, either to another competition program, or to boycott FRC and not compete.

As Jared has, I have dedicated 15 years of my life to this program...I don't think I can justify continuing to do that come 2017, if this change comes to fruition.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

In the video, FIRST specifies that we'll still have a single Championship event next year. 2017 is the first year with two "Championship" events.

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So I've sat here and read every post on the 16 pages of content in this thread. And it has made me very depressed. Not because of the decision by FIRST. But because of the response by the community. I've seen a lot of downward spiral on Chief in the last few years, so I don't know why I'm surprised anymore.

There are very few people in the CD community who I look to for inspiring words and knowledge on subjects. And here now I see that most of them are saying they are going to leave unless FIRST changes their decision. True, that is their right. If they don't like it, they are obviously not obligated to continue to stay. But these people were my role models. Not any more.

I've never had the luxury of being on a team with the competitiveness or finances to attend worlds every year. \So if the structure changes, what do I know about it? I love FIRST and I will always continue to be a part of it, as long as I am able.

I guess the most disappointing part to me about this whole thread is most of us have spent the last several years since Frank stepped into his position showering social media with phrases like "Good Guy Frank!" or "Frank for President!". A relatively overwhelming positive response. He has shown us consistently that he cares about what we have to say; he shows us that he reads what people post on CD and most often will respond to it in his blog. Frank cares. Frank tries to give us everything we need to have a positive experience. It looks to me like everyone has disregarded this fact and just hopped onto an angry mob mindset. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe Frank will be addressing the concerns of the community in the future.

Yes, it's an interesting change. Yes, I respect it devalues the experience of a world championship event. Yes, I understand that a lot of people are upset they won't get to see friends at world.

Weird, it's almost like we are part of a program that allows us to have an active off-season period that can be just as exciting and enriching as the official season. People have already echoed that IRI will be the "true world championship." That has been said for years now. There are events all over the country where teams come from all over the world to compete. Not just IRI. Chezy champs, Rah Cha Cha Ruckus, Battlycry, MARC. And others. There are options.

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Isn't STL #2 or #3 on that list (I recall seeing Detroit, Flint, STL in the top spots but can't recall the order)

Truth, I haven't really been following it. I've walked alone, at night, in all three of them. There are sections that I certainly wouldn't walk alone at night (or with a team at night) but there are also sections I'd feel completely safe in.

Disclaimer - I'm a Michigan native, I grew up 45 minutes from Detroit and went to college in Flint.

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We drove to Atlanta pretty much every year. The drive is not as bad as you might think.

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Great comment! Recommended as quote.

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Next year is the last year.

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I have fond memories of that drive. Get a coach bus. Put overload mentors in a van and drive down. Take turns at the wheel. Put a couple chaperones on the coach, or college mentors who need to do homework. Schedule stops at exits with multiple fast food restaurants. Watch bad movies (ahem, Red Green Show) and sing songs. It's like a 10 hours summer camp with your best buds.

Plus, the ride back is great: sleep. sleep. sleep. recover.

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I can only speak for myself, but I thought FIRST was on a really good trajectory with their Districts->Super Regional->World Championship concept. I think it's possible to implement that in a way that provides realistic (but difficult) goals to most teams, reduces team costs, keeps it to the same number of days of missed work/school and travel, and maintains a really high competitive bar at the Championship.

The Championship itself would need to become more spectator friendly in order for many of the benefits of co-locating the world's best to continue to hold, and it would be awesome for it to become the sort of event where teams send students to be inspired, learn from, and be entertained by some really awesome robots and teams. That's a stepping stone to it becoming an event where even non-FRC participants will show up or tune in in significant numbers.

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You know that that article has St. Louis as 2nd most dangerous right? We manage to chaperone thousands of kids through that city, and I haven't heard of any violent crime injuring FIRSTers yet (I hope I'm not mistaken).

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This might be a good point to start some constructive discussion.

I'm also a fan of the district->district CMP->super regional->CMP concept. The only true concern I have with it is the amount teams will most likely have to spend in just registration costs for 4 tiers of events assuming they go all the way. If any one of those tiers (or more if FIRST wants to be nice) were free for teams it could work. Perhaps district CMP? 5k/year for the entire district model sounds fair. Meanwhile less populated areas still in regionals would pay the same amount with one less tier, dropping DCMP and just having a single regional with winners moving on to the super regional.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Same here. As an adult busses sound lame but man as a kid an 10+ hour drive with your friends is amazing. (Especially with awful movies like Vertical Limit which we watched at least 5 times).

The locations aren't bad, I disagree with the concept of two separate championships. It's like stopping at the final four and never crowning a true winner. That's what frustrates me. Hopefully FIRST reads these and sees that there is an issue with this decision and reevaluates things. That's one thing that I respect Frank for. He always takes the time to reevaluate things and make changes, even if it isn't exactally what he wants to do he listens and makes educated decisions, I hope he does that this time too.

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People are hurt... it's a big change, and it is scary. Deep down, I'm guessing many of us know that there will be a compromise, a longer term plan, appropriate discussions that get us closer to where we want to be. However in the near term, having the "World Champs" experience we know and love dramatically changed by literally splitting the community into two events... sucks?

And I don't see it to be any more contradictory to be vocal and frustrated at this announcement despite heaping praise onto FIRST/Frank in the last couple years... than to claim that people you have looked to as role models for years are no longer your role models because they are venting their frustration.

Frankly, this just caught a huge number of us by surprise today... and people are reacting. It doesn't mean people are immature, it doesn't mean they "value championship titles over students", or any other over-simplification. The details we were provided were not sufficient to ensure the championship experience we have today will either be maintained, or there is a path to it... so a number of folks are venting their frustration.

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I wonder if an important question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is FRC a sport?"

If FRC is indeed a sport, then we can look at other sporting events, and how they work -- be it NFL, NBA, NCAA, etc. They all have a clear winner, multiple games, etc. They work where each "team" could be considered an alliance, and the alliances stick together the entire season, and sometimes players (teams) are traded between teams (alliances) during the offseason.

If FRC isn't a sport, then we can look at other non-sport events, and how they work -- be it Science Fairs, Trade shows, etc. They all just have people come out and show of/demo their creations and rarely have overall "winners."

Both methods inspire people, and both methods attract different audiences. Which "track" does FRC want to follow?

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Exactly. I just wish that FIRST would consult team.

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Should the community get a say?

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I think that the cost of the two district events everyone gets with their registration fee can be driven down significantly. Most district events are held at high schools (some at college campuses) anyway. Having hosted an offseason competition the last two years, it's not that expensive to put on a competition for 30-40 teams. Where does that $5,000 that teams pay even go for district models? I imagine that after everyone has paid their $5,000 and any expenses have been paid for, there's probably still quite a bit a money left. It would be great if that extra money goes towards helping teams that are financially struggling or something of that sort, but something tells me that's not the case...

If somebody who's heavily involved in their district system could weigh-in on what the finances look like, it would be much appreciated.

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I think three tiers is about as many as people can tolerate, which means District CMP needs to change into a Super Regional, or District CMP needs to qualify fewer teams for the World Championship. At some point, it's okay to have branching tiers of competition so that too many people aren't one and done (Champions League vs. Europa League in European soccer is probably a better comparison than NCAA vs. NIT).

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Today, we are proud to announce that FIRST is about to change the game again, for the better! Beginning in 2017, we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.

Seems like First wants to be perceived as a sport for the mind...

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Given that FIRST refers to its programs as "The ultimate Sport for the Mind™" I think it's pretty clear how they (used to) consider what their programs are.

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I envisioned the death of World Championships as we know it to come by the end of this decade (and Im not sure there is anyone who is remotely aware and active in FRC/FIRST who thinks otherwise.

I saw an ideal endgame would be to take the idea of World Championships and turn it into something like a super-IRI. A weekend in July has a 150 team event with two fields. Take the 16 super regional winners, the 4 HoF Finalists, the top 25-30 points earners over the season from each zone, and the final 10-30 spots that would be determined as some kind of wild card: a mixture of HoF teams that didn't make the points cut, the top rookies in the world, top points earners at every super regional that didn't make the cut (like a most-improved).

It's largely an exhibition, just like World Championships of any high school sport. It should be run by FRC, but you can call the award something like The Director's Cup. You can adjust the game rules to improve play at a high level, you disregard bag time, and you don't pay a registration fee to go.

You get 2 months to prepare for a truly magnificent spectator driven version of FRC. It's the All-Star game, the midsummer classic of robotics, and it's globally televised by Fox Sports 1 or NBC Sports or ESPN. They sponsor the telecast to remove the registration fees. They get two months to go out and interview and shoot b-roll of top competitors for segments. You get two fields so play doesn't have long lulls. You put the competition on a Friday and Saturday in the summer to avoid people losing vacation days or school time. You get to keep FIRST's idea of providing a championship type experience at what I think would better be known as "Zone Championships" and the idea of World Championships carries on in the FRC Grand Prix. People from all over the FRC world can come to watch and learn from the best teams. At the end, you crown the Chairman's Award Winner and the 3 Winner's of the President's Cup.

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Why does the championship have to be so enormous? Even at 400 teams, it’s big enough to tax any city’s infrastructure, and there are only a handful of venues that are big enough to host it. It is not possible or necessary for everybody to attend the world championship.

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In 2009, I casually wandered to the Championship event in downtown Atlanta, not knowing what to expect. My team had qualified with an engineering inspiration award, and I was excited. What I experienced at the championships was inspiring. Being able to see robots from around the world, ask questions and learn from teams like 1114 and 254 is not something you can do elsewhere, and seeing these machines live inspires you to improve.

Fast forward to today, my students are thrilled to win their first regional, and the other mentors on the team are thrilled to compete at the world championship for the first time since 2015. The goal for the last three years has been to make it to the eliminations at championships, but we needed to win a regional to make it first.The students are so excited that they'll be able to play with the big boys like 254, 118, 1114, etc. They watch all of these streams and are looking forward to seeing them up close.

Having two region-locked championships will not be inspiring to them. They want to see the best of the world, all in one place. They don't want to play in a watered down championship featuring half of the good teams, and the other half being teams who aren't championship event-caliber. Why put in the effort to win a regional when you're just going to go to a diluted "half championship"?

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The locations selected do see odd if the goal was to ease travel concerns. Flying to Houston or Detroit is probably a bit easier than to St Louis, but its definitely not any easier to drive to either of those locations from the coast.

Participating with teams that haven't moved to districts yet, its been a bit sad to see fewer and fewer teams from outside the state come to regional competitions. We used to see a good number of teams from Michigan at the Wisconsin and Midwest regionals, and now with Indiana in districts we no longer see friends from that state either. This is an understandable result of the district system, and I had hoped that we might begin to see inter-district play as the standard to allow some of those truly inspiring teams to spread their message beyond their state borders.

I am concerned that this change to the Championship event will further limit the cross-pollination of teams that many rarely get the chance to see in person. It seems like they want to create an east and west super-district. While I can see the logic in getting as many team as possible to experience the championship event, how would it feel if you couldn't see your favorite robot in person because of geography. West coast teams would likely never see 1114, and those on the east would never see 254. Sad for all involved.

I suppose its a good problem to have overall that the program has grown to this point. I just hope there is a better solution than to directly divide the country as it seems has been proposed.

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The 5k for the initial district registration also includes your kit don't forget, plus the two events. That's why I didn't touch the initial 5k. I believe a fair way to do it would be 5k initially with a free DCMP as Michigan was intended to be.

Jarad also has valid points, how many tiers are too many?

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I will make a set of more neutral observations. I haven't come to a conclusion one way or another about this change.

I think that FIRST is facing an almost existential decision in the face of its success. The expansion of the FRC championship and moving FTC and FLL out of the Dome are a first step in that process. I expect that FIRST is asking what happens as participation rises and the championship expands. Last year, FIRST already noted that the number of teams qualifying would surpass 600 in short order. They probably believe that more than 600 is simply too large for any one venue. On the other hand, they want teams to have the same probability/opportunity to qualify for a "championship." To accomplish that goal, they decided to split the championship rather than squeeze the qualification criteria. I'm currently agnostic on whether that's the best option but I also understand the importance of maintaining the same incentives for a growing pool of teams. (Interesting work on that economics right now related to growing income equality.)

Not sure if this perspective helps, but maybe we can start a discussion about what should be the goals of FIRST and FRC, and what options are available to meet those. The district/super regional/champs was one, but that tends to narrow the final qualifying pool.

On a side note, I'm not sure shifting from St. Louis to Houston and Detroit really effectively changes many teams travel time. The impact is surely confined entirely to the middle of the U.S. and has no effects on teams on the coasts. Moving to San Jose and Virginia would have been a more distinct shift with real effects.

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True, I forgot about that. But isn't most of the stuff in the kit donated anyway?

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I am willing to hold another FRC Championship in my culdesac. No guarantees but we can probably fit more teams than Waterloo.

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Well, IRI will become the true Championship.

Is this some kind of record for the fastest thread growth on Chief Delphi? Posted at 10:19 a.m. and already 20 pages of comments.

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Here's one "answer", from the announcement post itself:

Re: Future First Championship News
 

FIRST does have to purchase some of the required components. I don't think a company like CTRE could afford to donate 2500+ PDP's, VRM's and PCM's.

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I think a 200+ mile increase in travel is an effect.

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This. 100 times this. The two things in play here (crowning the ultimate champion, hosting a huge FIRST celebration with the best teams there) do not necissarily have to be the same thing.

For a long time, every single team in FIRST got to have the championship experience every year. Later, every single team got to have it every two years, then every four years. For most of FIRST's history, this was a prominently stated objective of the way championship registration worked: for every student to get to experience an FRC world championship at least once. But more recently, this objective got further and further away from reality, and in the past few years, teams (district regions aside) have basically had to win an event/Chairman's/EI/Rookie All Star to get there. And for the most part, I think teams have been okay with this. It was a gradual progression, not an abrupt shift to the way they are now. And it makes sense for championships to be relatively exclusive -- just getting there is a pretty lofty goal, which teams work incredibly hard towards.

The dual championship model seems to be an attempt to bring things back to the way they were, and make the model where every few years, any team can simply sign up and have the championship experience, sustainable again. And while I think it's great for more students to have this experience, it can't come at the expense of having the championship be a championship, where the best of the best go head to head. Without that, you can't learn if you truly achieved the goals you set at the start of the year.

I would be perfectly okay with, and in fact enthusiastically support, a series of massive events designed to provide the championship scale experience, alongside a FIRST-sanctioned, relatively small (IRI size would be fine), championship event, so that teams still can get the experience of seeing the Michael Jordans, Tom Bradys, and Clayton Kershaw's of FIRST playing to determine championships, and inspiring them to get to the biggest stage in FIRST someday.

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I like how I only ever have to read the first post in a thread to know what the consensus on CD is. Saves me quite a bit of time.

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I'll volunteer my uncles' farm.

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Do you feel that combining MAR, NE, and the soon to be VA district into one mega district with its own DCMP would be the answer to cut out a tier? Maybe top x ranked teams from each current district area move on to a Northeast Mega District? From the perspective of strictly competition, sure it could work, but I'm a fan of how districts are currently set up. It gives some lesser/mediocre teams an obtainable goal (reaching DCMP).

Re: Future First Championship News
 

The following is a transcribed extract (divided in two) from about 5:12 in the video. I think the video does a better job than the post in communicating FIRST's reasoning.

My reading is that the only thing that FIRST have done is book venues for the four years (2017-2020), which they were forced to do (current St Louis deal expires).

The difficulty was having to book venues that would work in 2020, considering the current model was not sustainable (there is probably not one venue fairly located, big enough and affordable for FIRST in 5 years time based on current growth trends).

So they solved the logistical problem first, and now they have two very large venues, on two separate weekends, which they have to package in to a utilitarian (greatest good for the greatest number) solution. Their emphasis is on "the greatest number" part, with side benefits of reduced average travel costs and probably increased sponsor presence.

This is the most frustrating part: why now, when there is probably very little wiggle room to work with?

Finally, the biggest question for me is where does this put the district system? I thought the plan was to get all districts by 2017, thereby circumventing this problem?

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If anyone ends up making a T-Shirt protesting this decision please PM me. I will buy a shirt and wear it proudly at Champs.

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This sounds like a fantastic way to accomplish the goals of both sides. Making it a small event (sub 100 teams total) makes it extraordinarily prestigious. I know a lot of teams (my team included) seem to begin to expect they will make it to champs every year. Having it be a huge deal for anyone to make it to champs would be a lot of fun. Sure you have your 1114's and 254's that always qualify, but you cut down on a lot of teams that land in that middle tier, and it becomes a massive goal to make it to championships.

On top of that, it also suits the popularization of it better with a short event that a major network can broadcast, instead of 2 separate 4 day events.

I would be thrilled to see FIRST take this route instead of the chosen path.

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As a VEX and FRC programs participating school, I do hope that we are still able to do both as 2014 was very disappointing to having to split our programs apart.

I have just one suggestion Frank.
Is it possible to have a team qualify for both World Championships for winning multiple events?

Just a thought.....

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You will only be able to attend one Championship and which one that will be will be geographically assigned.

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Ironically, multiple district championships might be the best answer here. Keep districts+points the same as they are. Play the NE/MAR/VA district championships. Chairman's/EI/RAS/Winning alliances from each qualify for Worlds, plus the top point earners with teams from all three regions mixed together. This would keep the travel costs to a minimum, by not introducing more than one tier which requires the high travel costs of championships.

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I think that would probably come off a bit selfish.. to deny a team a wild card slot to champs so you can go to both..