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-   -   Future First Championship News (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136491)

BrennanB 10-04-2015 22:59
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1469411)
I think the comments from others about the FLL competition structure are pretty enlightening. In FLL, pretty much no-one goes to champs, and for the VAST majority of teams, you only see people in your region.

That's pretty much a preview of the future of FRC. The program is going to keep growing, barring a complete collapse of the economy. Champs as currently constituted is pretty much as big as it can get. Eventually, a monolithic Champs won't be able to handle even just the teams that qualify at DCMPs and Regionals. Heck, the 56 regionals this year can qualify up to 336 teams for Champs. It's no surprise they had to bump the capacity. Eventually, FRC would have to slap another qualifying layer in there of super regionals and drastically limit the teams that make it to Champs. And then, for the vast majority of teams, you're only ever seeing people from your region and you're not competing against the best of the best. It really just seems to me like this is mostly just a surprise implementation of Super Regionals. I'm sorry the future has gotten here more suddenly than we all expected, but it did have to happen at some point.
The comments about FLL were actually intended to prove that there is no good reason we need to expand champs. FLL is doing wonders, could be better, but they are doing fine with a ridiculously small qualification %age. This doesn't need to be the future, and by no means is it inevitable.

The solution is to expand and hype up district champs, and leave world champs alone. Since they have contracts, we move FLL/FTC to one, and FRC to the other, which really sucks, but it's the lesser of all the evils. If they absolutely need to have two FRC events, in an ideal world all the divs come together and have an Einstein "regional" ? You have divisional WFA and CA award winners who compete there as well? I don't like the idea of having two WCA teams, not because teams aren't deserving, but that it cheapens the award win for past teams to some extent.

Tristan Lall 11-04-2015 00:20
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl C (Post 1468621)
The contracts have already been signed. If FIRST wanted to hear feedback, it would have been more helpful to have asked before the final decision was made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfgirl (Post 1468675)
I think with the venues already booked, they are locked in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrennanB (Post 1469417)
Since they have contracts, we move FLL/FTC to one, and FRC to the other, which really sucks, but it's the lesser of all the evils.
It would be a foolish contract indeed, that failed to spell out ways for the parties to terminate it early.

At this stage—years in advance—it might be as simple as forfeiting a down payment. So it might be worthwhile to consider what price you'd put on some other championship arrangement. Would the world be a better place if FIRST forfeited (for example) $50 000 to a venue operator, and arranged the event(s) to your liking?

(And even if it was a foolish contract with no way out, there's always the implicit option to negotiate for an amendment.)

AmoryG 11-04-2015 11:47
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I get how this might benefit teams that don't often get the chance to attend the World Championship event, but how are spectators and potential future participants going to feel about this? By making these events more inclusive we're also diluting the competition, and I can't think of a bigger turnoff for spectators who expect to see the highest level of play. People are inspired by the best teams and the best players. The biggest stages draw the biggest crowds because it is the most exciting. Kids want to become sports players and achieve big things because they watched guys like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Rodger Federer, and Michael Phelps. Making a single championship event where only the best of the best compete is in FIRST's best interests because it will draw the biggest crowds and will convert the most spectators into fans and participants.

I get why they're doing this, but it's completely misguided in my opinion. Almost no one gets to be the best, but that has never stopped any kid from trying.

dodar 11-04-2015 12:10
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Man, FIRST is out in full force trying to win over Michigan to go with this bad idea.

Travis Hoffman 11-04-2015 12:21
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1469506)
Man, FIRST is out in full force trying to win over Michigan to go with this bad idea.
For those not watching the webcast, care to elaborate?

dodar 11-04-2015 12:23
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 1469507)
For those not watching the webcast, care to elaborate?
They've got Dean and Dan Bossi there from FIRST and the Governor hyping up one of the championships being in Detroit.

*I've gotta say, it feels super weird to say, "one of the championships."*

Travis Hoffman 11-04-2015 12:25
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1469508)
They've got Dean and Dan Bossi there from FIRST and the Governor hyping up one of the championships being in Detroit.

*I've gotta say, it feels super weird to say, "one of the championships."*
The eventual dual "Championships" being hosted in states with significant state government influence in FIRST affairs is certainly interesting.

Steven Smith 11-04-2015 12:34
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 1469509)
The eventual dual "Championships" being hosted in states with significant state government influence in FIRST affairs is certainly interesting.
I'd wonder if it were the other way around? I might not have read your comment correctly, but it seems to suggest that Texas/Michigan governments are exerting undue influence over FIRST's decisions.

FIRST has successfully made ground with both state governments (Michigan more so than Texas... but growing in Texas), and perhaps they are able to secure additional state funding or preferential contracts on the the event locations. With the inability to satisfy the FIRST growth model in St. Louis*, the loss of leverage on pricing that occurs when you have an incumbent location, and the discussions around the future of the Rams... I could see a situation where financially and logistically, the move makes sense.

* - This isn't saying I agree with the model (or don't), just that the model FIRST is putting out shows growth to the 800+ FRC team mark attending championships in the next 2-3 years.

Travis Hoffman 11-04-2015 12:43
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Smith (Post 1469511)
I'd wonder if it were the other way around? I might not have read your comment correctly, but it seems to suggest that Texas/Michigan governments are exerting undue influence over FIRST's decisions.
There is no "correct" way to read my comment, as I merely noted a parallel between physical championship locations and strong governmental support of FIRST within those states.

I draw no further conclusions from this reality.

Steven Smith 11-04-2015 12:46
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 1469512)
There is no "correct" way to read my comment, as I merely noted a parallel between physical championship locations and strong governmental support of FIRST within those states.

I draw no further conclusions from this reality.
In that case... neither do I :) And I also note the parallel, and I don't think it is over-reaching to say that that strong government support could have been an influencing factor in FIRST decision, and strong government support might have led to secondary benefits for FIRST in their location selections.

mburd 11-04-2015 12:46
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Tatorscout (Post 1469299)
So I mentioned to a rookie parent that they were splitting champs to Houston and Detroit. He's not from this country and the first thing out of his mouth was "Why wouldn't they do east coast/west coast?"

Really, Houston and Detroit? Last I looked, the US is longer than it is tall. Pretty simple geometry proof can be inferred here.
My guess is that the two cities have been trying to get the championship for a while and figured they had a good chance being centrally located. More eastern and western cities didn't think they had a chance because of their location. When FIRST started brainstorming cities, Detroit and Houston came up because they had probably already made a decent offer assuming that they had a good chance of getting it. Meanwhile cities in the east and west didn't know it would be split, so they didn't bother trying to bring it to them.

Munchskull 11-04-2015 14:23
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1469508)
They've got Dean and Dan Bossi there from FIRST and the Governor hyping up one of the championships being in Detroit.

*I've gotta say, it feels super weird to say, "one of the championships."*
Where is the Webcast?

Knufire 11-04-2015 14:40
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchskull (Post 1469545)
Where is the Webcast?
http://www.dptv.org/programs/first-robotics/

Qbot2640 11-04-2015 23:01
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrennanB (Post 1469417)
The comments about FLL were actually intended to prove that there is no good reason we need to expand champs. FLL is doing wonders, could be better, but they are doing fine with a ridiculously small qualification %age. This doesn't need to be the future, and by no means is it inevitable.

The solution is to expand and hype up district champs, and leave world champs alone. Since they have contracts, we move FLL/FTC to one, and FRC to the other, which really sucks, but it's the lesser of all the evils. If they absolutely need to have two FRC events, in an ideal world all the divs come together and have an Einstein "regional" ? You have divisional WFA and CA award winners who compete there as well? I don't like the idea of having two WCA teams, not because teams aren't deserving, but that it cheapens the award win for past teams to some extent.
Amen...and double-amen.
I am getting tired of hearing how this was inevitable. Championship does not have to become larger. Championship is special (in part) because it is difficult to attain. If growth is making it so too many teams are qualifying, then raise the standards. This change is huge - much bigger, in my opinion, than mandating districts. That is where the focus should be...and if there are still too many teams, then reduce the number each of those districts send.

District Events -> District Championship -> Single FRC Championship...and for the remaining cases where districts are not viable Regional -> Regional Championships -> Single FRC Championship.

Lil' Lavery 12-04-2015 01:30
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1469508)
They've got Dean and Dan Bossi there from FIRST and the Governor hyping up one of the championships being in Detroit.

*I've gotta say, it feels super weird to say, "one of the championships."*
Having a Championship in Detroit is the thing that makes the most sense out of all of this. Michigan has 347 teams already. Ontario has 175. Ohio has 75. Indiana has 61. That's a very sizable portion of FIRST within a few hour drive. With or without the explosion of teams in Michigan in the last couple years progressing into future years, the Great Lakes region is already incredibly dense for FRC.


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