Re: Future First Championship News
 

A few thoughts on this:

My team last went to Championships in 2012, my first year, and I can tell you guys: yes, it is an experience, and an amazing one at that. FIRST recognizes that, and I think teams like mine do as well. I'm inclined to think that those who object strongly to having two championships are associated with teams that are invited very frequently if not routinely, and don't appreciate how much it means to teams for whom attending the championship is an incredible achievement. I honestly don't understand why so many people are angry at letting more teams go, especially since the number of teams in the world has increased so much. If they stick to one championship, the percentage of teams that attends will get less and less every year, meaning every team that isn't a consistent powerhouse will have less and less hope of attending.

Our team of course is excited about the Detroit Championships, since Detroit is about an hour away from where we work. But given the massively disproportionate size of FiM, it makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting to see a map of North America where the sizes of states/provinces were proportional to the number of FRC teams they contained; I suspect it would make the choice of Houston and Detroit seem very reasonable.

It's a bit weird to think about having two world champion alliances, but think: right now there isn't a single world champion. There's three. In a couple years there will be six. Perhaps that could be considered diluting the honor, but as a member of a team that is happy just to attend the championships, I'm not going to respect a champion team less for being one of a group of 0.2% of teams instead of 0.1%.

I was excited when I heard the news at MSC this weekend, and honestly I was surprised to see such a backlash. I also don't expect it to have any effect; any organization that reversed massive decisions because of some angry responses online wouldn't have survived nearly as long as FIRST has.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I don't think people are unhappy that FIRST is "letting more teams go". I think most of us would love an 800 team championship event.
But can you really call it a championship event if it's splitting FRC in half?
Now the Detroit Event will be the championships of the North, and the Houston Event will be the championships of the south. I won't be able to see 254 or 148 or 118 or 971 or 1678 or 233 or any of the teams at the other championship ever again.
Most of what makes Championships inspiring is being able to see teams from all over the world you can't see otherwise.

Instead of taking away what makes championships what it is, make DCMP's and regionals more inspiring. MSC is an incredible event because it has all the best teams from all over Michigan and awesome production values.
NECMP is exciting because it has the best of New England concentrated at one place, but it could use the production value of MSC.

Work on getting everyone to districts and making their district championships awesome. Worlds is what it is because of the teams that get to go there. Worlds should be a goal to achieve, not a giveaway.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Additionally, Ontario is expecting to move to districts in the next 1-2 years, and will undoubtedly result in further growth here.

I'm excited for FIRST Championship Detroit to be within a 5-6 hours drive for me. I'm VERY not excited that it will only be half of the championship.

For the Toronto-region teams (which is the overwhelming majority of ON teams), MI/OH/IN and to a lesser extent PA/Western NY teams, a Detroit Championship DOES have real cost savings.

It should be downright terrifying to HQ that this announcement had many long term, well respected mentors from HOF teams ready to jump ship to another program at the drop of a hat, even if it meant building a new program themselves. It took only a couple pages into this thread for someone to suggest that its time for a vex pro competition to finally offer an alternative competition to FRC in a similar style.

Its easy to say (correctly) that a championshplit will enable more teams to get there and by extension get (most of) the inspiration that going to championship gives. HOWEVER, that's only true if it doesn't come at the expense of disillusioning the elites. They're the ones who MAKE that championship level so inspiring. If they jump ship because they want to actually compete to be the best in the world, then the inspiration evaporates in a really big hurry.

Most of those super-elite teams (the 1114s, 254s, 118s and 148s of FRC) build their season with the goal of WINNING THE CHAMPIONSHIP. Its the goal that drives them to the level of excellence they achieve, and its that excellence that makes them so inspiring to the other teams they play with. By splitting the championship, you cheapen that goal and make it less attractive for them to achieve, and their performance may suffer, and ultimately make them less inspiring.

Improving the DCMP/Super-Regional level of play to be more inspiring is the better way to reach greater numbers of teams -- even if it means a smaller grand championship with only the winners and finalists of the DCMP/SR level.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Going from a 400 team format to 800 teams brings in 2,000,000 more money in registration fees alone. Every extra team that "earns" a spot to Champs via wait list or wildcard, means more $$$ for FIRST.
I can see HQ not wanting 1 venue's constraints getting in the way of that if true.
Even if we all could make the DCMPs and regionals more inspiring, that won't be the trade off to limiting Champs.
As much as I personally agree with what you are saying about keeping Champs a much harder, more prestigious event to get into, the growth of FIRST and other factors have led to this already made decision.
Like you I am disappointed that as currently planned, we won't get to see 1/2 of the teams that we all looked forward to seeing in years past.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I just imagined right now, how different this season would have been had these and other elite teams did not compete this season or years past.
The intangible inspiration provided by these teams can't be measured in dollars and cents, vs everythjng else we have to deal with in terms of affording to participate.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

People keep pointing to this, but WHO are these mentors? Yes, I see a lot of talk here, a lot of people upset, but I see ALSO a lack of comment from many more well-respected mentors and members from HOF teams.

I keep seeing people pointing out how upset SO many people are, but there's just as many, if not more, people who are NOT commenting and instead are waiting for more information.

It's important that people make their opinions known if it makes themselves feel better, but it's just as important to NOT exaggerate or make it seem like ALL OF FIRST is upset about this.

Not that I'm a HOF mentor, or WFFAA, or even "well-respected" by many, but I'm not worried about this development at all. Having gone through the transition to districts TWICE (once in Michigan and now once in Indiana), what I see more than anything is that once change happens, FRC teams are adaptable, despite analyzing and agonizing about it when it first is announced.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I was referring to Jared and Cory of 254 specifically, whose posts can be read earlier in this thread, as well as the others that have been implied through reading this thread.

While I'm quite certain that some degree of their posts was simply them being inflammatory to get a reaction, a change that has any HOF mentors even questioning their involvement and whether FIRST's goals continue to align with their own needs a serious looking at.

Yes, the HOF/Otherwise Super-elites are a minority, and so its easy to say that this change really only upsets a minority of teams that want to compete at the highest level. They account for less than 100 of the ~3000 teams in FIRST. However, they disproportionately account for a large portion of the inspiration. Without them, I think the program ultimately would not survive, and so decisions which cause them to question their involvement are scary indeed. Those teams mentor other teams and make the FIRST program better. Consequently, I believe that those teams should be involved in decisions like this, and their input heavily considered.

To use my own region as an example? 1114 is directly responsible for 50+ VRC teams, several FLL teams, as well as the creation or growth of several premier FRC teams, 1503,1680,2056,2166,3683,4039,4476 and more I can't think of right now can all credit 1114 with some part of their existence or competitiveness.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

My point is that 2, or even 3-4, HOF mentors do not speak for MANY or all of them, much less a high percentage of inspirational people in FIRST. Please beware of hyperbole. It creates false alarm and a hive mentality, something that ChiefDelphi usually already has an abundance of.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

In a program designed to change the culture, create exciting new innovations, and challenge status quo standards of thinking and leadership, change is a good thing - not a threat to everything held dear. Granted, change is hard but, it does create opportunities for identifying strengths and weaknesses within the structures and frameworks involved.

My firm belief has always been that there is more room for achieving excellence and for more recognition of excellence achieved. As it is, we are setting limits when there is opportunity to lift them, raising the bar and strengthening the challenge. FIRSTers never shy away from agonizing analysis (love it, Carolyn Grace), discomfort, new ways of growing the programs, and having fun. Never. This is 2015. What new challenges will we be facing in 2020, I wonder.

As an opinion, I also think the way this announcement came about, and the timing of it, has been a strategic part of HQ's plan for rolling this change out. Strategic is the key word. It gives everyone ample time to work through the stages of acceptance/rejection in time for productive discussions in STL across all of the programs impacted.

Jane

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I like how you use accusing me of hyperbole to conveniently skirt the very next thing I say, where I suggest that this announcement making ANY mentors of that caliber question their involvement is scary.

I agree with you that one or two mentors does not a widespread opinion make.

Further, I agree that they are far from a high percentage of the inspirational people in FIRST.

Certainly, there are inspirational people at every step of the FIRST programs, however, the super-elite teams, and the mentors that make them tick (people like Jared and Cory), account for a disproportionate share of the inspiration, both directly through their own personal actions, and indirectly through the actions of their teams and the teams that they mentor, and therefore their opinions should be considered to have more weight when it comes to future ways the program will inspire. If they're not fully on-board, its a potentially massive problem that can jeopardize the very thing that getting more teams to CMP tries to achieve.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I didn't ignore it. My apologies for making you feel like I did. I was pointing out the hyperbole in your original post of You, yourself, said that you were referring to two people in this thread, "as well as others." Two people, plus some others, does not equal "many" people. That was the hyperbole.

I agree that WFA/WFAA and mentors from HOF teams should have their opinions treated with respect and with an air of authority, to a reason. But I've been around FIRST long enough (13+ years), and know enough of them personally, to understand that their opinions rarely line up together.

Not all of them have publicly given their opinions on this subject. Some I've talked to in person and though personal chats. Others, who I personally don't know, haven't publicly expressed their opinion.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Because most of them (dare I say none of them) jump to hasty conclusions. It will likely take them the entirety of the next 2 years to decide whether or not they want to stay with FRC with the recent changes, but the fact that many of them are even considering it is a huge failure for FIRST. If FIRST wants to really have a successful program they shouldn't have all of the largest contributors to their program have half a foot out the door, they should be thrilled to be involved without having so much doubt in FIRST HQ's choices. Of course there will be controversial decisions made by FIRST, but they shouldn't be so controversial that large amounts of veteran mentors and teams are considering leaving over it.

Champs stops becoming meaningful when a third of all teams qualify for it. Why isn't your team just as excited to make regional finals as to make it to CMP? Those will soon become similarly exclusive events. If you claim it's because you get to see other successful teams, well, you won't see most of them anymore because they'll be competing halfway across the country. I'm curious if you happen to discuss finances with the business side of your team, because I'm having trouble seeing why you would be so thrilled to drop $10,000 to go to CMP instead of $1000 to go to district champs and see teams at the same level of competition as you would see in a division at CMP. Is watching einstein live (with only half as many of the teams you're there to see) worth another $9000 in expenses every year? If I were you I would much prefer to go to district champs, not to mention the fact that I would get to play 4x as many matches in the district system instead of at regionals for a lower price.

Personally, I don't care much, but here's the reasoning as I understand it, that most other people don't like it: The word champion loses a lot validity when you no longer crown a champion. Now that you have multiple champions can any of them really say "we are world champions"? Why stop at 2? Why not split the country into quarters and have 4 regional champions? Under your logic is that any less reputable, or garnering of respect than 2 champions?

The difference is that most of the people involved in FIRST aren't internet trolls. That's just my opinion though.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'd like to make a really crazy suggestion here. What if, maybe, somehow, in some way, against all odds, this all works out for the better?

What if, maybe, increasing the percentage of teams going to champs is a GOOD thing?

What if, maybe, giving mid-tier teams, who aren't world famous, a chance to see and interact with elite teams, even if its just one, helps inspire them?

What if, maybe, those teams learn something from this interaction with even one elite team?

What if, maybe, those mid-tier teams act on this new knowledge and start to vastly improve?

What if, maybe, they become successful, and gain sponsors and support?

What if, maybe, they become the "new elites?"

And finally, what if, maybe, they become the new source of inspiration in FIRST?

Is such a thing even possible? Am I crazy for thinking that this WON'T "water down" championships? That the disparaging and disappointing remarks by some are short-sighted? That the "alarming" (trying to be polite) phone call to some low-level FIRST staffer just trying to help teams get to this year's championship was not necessary? Is it possible that this might actually help fulfill FIRST's mission (which, BTW, makes no mention of "robots" or "competition")?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

It's possible that I wake up tomorrow and start shooting lightning from my hands and ride a unicorn to work. The idea that I think that would actually happen to me would probably cause a lot of people more experienced in biology and zoology who think otherwise to be very concerned for me and my mental faculties.

I'm not publicly advocating for holding one championships, two championships, or 422 championships, but there are people who have been in FIRST twice as long as I have that think this could not be a net benefit for teams.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

What can I say? You gotta dream big.:D

Fair enough. For the record, I've been a part of FIRST since '99, when they first went to alliances. Our teacher and 3 veterans quit because it "watered down" the competition. I think things turned out fine. I don't know how this will turn out, just like anyone else. Just consider nothing has to be a failure until you make it so.