Re: Future First Championship News
 

Any ideas of why they chose now to announce this? The timing seems a tad bit odd.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

It appears that lobbying for change, publicly expressing your opinion, and talking with others about change makes you a child. In fact, just go along with whatever happens, because there's no point in trying to change anything -- let it all happen as it is.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

With all the hate against having 2 Championships, I wonder if FIRST will actually consider taking this back.

In my opinion, the answer should be this: Remove regional competitions, transfer everyone over to the District system. This way we could have district championship events (set up to be smaller versions of the current cmp) with the top teams still earning a spot at the World Championship. This would make the champs experience far more obtainable for a lot more teams without removing the prestige of the World championship top tier stage.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

The other thing we ought to remember is that attending the Championship is insanely expensive. Even if FIRST made registration free, it would be insanely expensive and many teams would never be able to raise that kind of money to spend on airplane tickets and hotels, when they could better spend that money running a sustainable competitive robotics team. We can serve this 66% at a significantly lower cost with District Championships or their equivalent. You can get 90% of the inspiration for 20% of the cost.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

We look forward to this new dual championship framework.
I will work with COPUS and see what they think us sponsoring a team.

2015 Demo Robot 4K (Middle School - 7th grade)

2016 Demo Robot 4K (Middle School - 8th grade)

2017 Houston - Rookie Year
2018 Houston - 18K Budget
2019 Houston - 14K Budget
2020 Houston - 10K Budget

Cheers,
Xi Taqua Robato.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

No. No, no, no, no. First, congrats on disincentivizing 1st seeds picking 2nd seeds. 2nd seed sure would think twice about accepting if winning meant they'd only go to the Loser's Championship. Second, yes, you really would be creating a Loser's Championship. Your whole purpose is to create a "real" Champs with all the "good" teams, and, well, that other Champs with all those other teams. Two geographically segregated Champs may or may not be a good idea, but I'm pretty sure a "premier" Champs and "that other" Champs is a terrible one for the health of the community.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'd like to bring up two points,

The first,

Having more tiers of events isn't a good solution, in my opnion it's going to

• Add Cost
• Relegate poorer teams to lower tiers of competition, see 2550 (forced to decline DCMP in 2014, and likely worlds this year, despite being in the top 50 single event OPR this year)
• More travel time
• More School missed (We want FRC students in college right?)
• Likely more mentor/student/volunteer burnout

I know personally, our team would fold if another level was added, and we have a larger budget than a lot of teams


The second is,

As a graduating senior, I'm starting to look towards my future involvement with FRC. After the 2013 and 2014 games, I was pretty excited to be able to mentor in the future. 2015 has been a letdown year compared to the previous, but it honestly hasn't been as bad as I was expecting. In fact, I've enjoyed it quite a bit more than I thought I would. I was excited to finally be able to give back to a program that has done so much for me, but then this announcement came. I know I'm no where near the time investment of many members of Chiefdelphi, but this proposed change makes me question even wanting to give time to this program. FRC's attraction IS the competition. The drive to be the best team and provide the best experience for students is what propels nearly every team I've encountered forward.

To take away that competition at the highest level is akin to castrating a bull, all of the bravado but with none of the fire.

Here's to hoping we're all very wrong indeed...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I think with the venues already booked, they are locked in.

I agree with you though that moving everyone to districts and district championships feeding into one Championship would have been better in terms of travel distance, cost, and overall experience/competition/inspiration factors.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

You're in a dsitrict, you wouldnt see another level. Non-district regions would have another level added; District Championship ~ Super-Regionals.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I think you summed it up pretty well Kevin. My initial reaction was that two championships would dilute the feeling, but after seeing various reactions and thinking about this change more, I think it is overall a positive change for FIRST. When I look back at my time as a student in FRC, having the ability to go to championships on the waitlist was inspiring in so many ways, not only because of the atmosphere, but also being part of the competition. And it was fun to play with some of the best teams in the world, but in no way did it have to be with all of them. I understand where people are coming from in saying that it may further dilute the top tier competition, and I agree to an extend.

However, I think this change is a step in the right direction to get more students involved while maintaining a high level and respectable program

Re: Future First Championship News
 

While I actually agree with most of your points, I get frustrated when people assume that just because I'm from 148 I don't understand "programatic issues" which apply to all teams, including teams not like my own. I assume Cory shares this frustration, and perhaps you shouldn't "put that on him" without talking to him.

To imply any knowledge of where Cory's head is at, to imply he has blind spots about aspects of the program implies a level of familiarity with his thinking that is probably inappropriate.

"You don't know him, why are you acting like you do?"

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Quick question, hypothetical scenario:

We just won the 2017 week 1 regional event, and get to go to championships.

What venue are we going to?
If you say, "oh, you're closer to Detroit, you'll be there!" but then they have too many teams that live close to Detroit going, would we not be moved to Houston?
So, can we reserve hotels yet, or do we need to wait to book hotels, flights, food, etc. until a week out, when everything is far more expensive?

Not trying to be negative, just ask a real question.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

District Champs are cheaper for teams to attend, but they're tied to the district system. You're not going if you're not good enough, so there's teams that might want/need the inspiration/workshops/etc. of Champs that won't get it cause now you can't waitlist into DCMP or CMP.

Also, I think you have your percentage or noun wrong. You can get 80%-90% of the competition of Champs at MSC, but I'm much less sure about the inspiration. I was only at MSC for a brief bit, but I'm pretty sure it's lacking in spectacle and grandeur compared to Champs. Some students are going to be more inspired by beign part of the big show celebrating this engineering competition than seeing the competition played at the highest level.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

It will never happen, but I'd love to be wrong on this.

I think it remains to be seen just how "different" the costs will be for teams in the next several years with all of these major changes. I just hope we can afford those changes.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

And this system fixes it how? More waitlist slots? If you want to help the 66% of team at lone star, you need to push for districts in Texas as you don't get out of Lone Star without 118, 624, or the visiting super team's help. State championships gives lower level team something to aim at that doesn't involve having to beat the super Texas teams or be cheesecaked by them.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Yes, I am. Teams in districts have the luxury of competing in 3 events for the price of 2. My point about my team paying 4 registrations was directed towards the split CMP or DCMP -> Super Regional that some were suggesting earlier in the thread. I agree that DCMP should equal a Super Regional.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

My thoughts on this whole situation, as someone who has attended the last 5 world championships and has learned something at all of them. Sorry in advance for any grammatical errors, writing is not my strong suit..

As an excited 8th grader starting FIRST 5 years ago, I would never have though that I would feel relieved to be leaving the program, but now, as a senior, I am disappointed by what FIRST is doing to the program. I have attended the FIRST championship every year since 2010 and each and every year has been helpful in either inspiring me, or making me better at FRC/engineering in general. This is a look at each year I have gone, how it influenced me, and why we need a 1 championship system (based on my experiences that year).

In 2010, The year before I started, my dad and I took a road trip from St. Louis to visit my cousin's team (future Hall of Fame 1538) in Atlanta to watch them compete. I was in complete awe of many of the teams there. I got to meet 1986's guitar hero robot, 1538 showed their 10 wheel drive train to me, and let me run the controls (while it was off the ground, of course). I had premier seating for the finals, not too high up, and pretty close to the center. After coming home from this, I was an inspired little 7th grader, paving the way for my years to come. I was not sure who exactly the "big teams" were at the time, but I did not have to. With everyone being in that stadium, a simple walk around the pits showed me the best robots in the WORLD, not just from the area. I did not have to know who was the best to see some pretty sick robots. With a dual championships, a person who is knowledgeable can Google their favorite robots, but a spectator who has no idea is missing out on (and will not Google the great teams they are missing) will surely not have quite the same inspiring experience as if they attended a championship with every powerhouse team.

8th grade year I joined the local high school team (the love of my life, team 3397) as soon as I turned 15. This happened to be the year that we won St. Louis regional and went to participate in World Championships. We had a blast on the Galileo division, even being able to compete in the qualification match against 254 and 111 (ever wondered what being inspired by being destroyed feels like? Here is a video of the match. We are the robot with the awkward PVC arm) Now, in a duel system, there is no way we would have gotten to participate with these two teams. 111 would most likely have gone to Detroit, and 254 down to Houston. Those two teams and that match were my first eye openers to what real robotics teams could accomplish. The more these top level teams are split up, the less experiences like this one will happen, and, looking back as a senior, these experiences NEED to happen. We lose that match horribly, but just being against those teams was huge for us.

2012, my 9th grade year, I took time off of school to visit world championships, because, while my team had not made it, I live 10 minutes form the dome and could not miss the opportunity to go on down. This was a year of learning. I spent hours in the pits, taking photos and notes of pretty much every robot there. Here is the album for anyone interested. All of the team's I met there? All of the information I learned helped my team move vastly foreward. While in the previous years we had only used PVC and woods, mentors and students from all over talked to me about gaining sponsorships and working with metal. I talked to teams from Michigan about sheet metal and teams from California about welding box tubing. Every region has their thing, and bringing all the regions together at 1 championship lets everyone see what the other regions are doing, past the 360p regional streams and low quality "teaser" pictures. If you are a team in the south, the only way you will get a close look at the robots from the north will be through those streams and photos. Trust me, a good, up close look is always 10x better and much, much more informative.

Alright, onto 2013, this year is a big one. Again, my tam did not make it, so I went on my own. It was my first year attending Karthik's Seminar at championships. I learned a lot from that, it was great, and will be something that only the northern teams will get to see live (although, I will be honest, you can get the same experience by watching the stream, unless you have questions, then you are out of luck.) The real great thing that year? Well, I got to hang out with team #610 that whole weekend. Starting Thursday, I was sitting with 1114 (I had no friends attending, so I just sat with them because there was an open spot). Their team started coming in though, so I started to move away, not wanting to have to split them up at my behalf. Well, Edwin from 610 saw me leave and offered me a spot with them. Soon I met the rest of their team, made really good friends with one of their seniors, Adam Scott, and he let me sit with him the rest of the competition. Yes, that includes when they beat 118/1114 and when they were winning Einstein. I can assume you all can imagine why this was inspiring, so I will skip over that. A single world championship is important due to the fact that it allows you to meet people from cultures all over the world. Every culture that makes it to worlds? You have the chance to interact and learn about each of those cultures. At a dual championship system, the north will not get the chance to learn about those from, say, Mexico and Brazil, while the south will not get to learn about Canada and, say, the Europeans. It is wonderful to get to interact with so many people in so many places, and having less of those to interact with definitely diminishes the experience.

Finally, 2014, the most recent year I attending. I do not have much to say here, just that sponsors love the whole world aspect of championships. I was giving the engineers from my father's company a tour of different teams and robot at championships. At the end of the day, they were talking about only two of the 10 teams that I showed them. These two teams? 1114 and 254. They did not even care about anyone else, just these guys, who, at a dual championships, would not even be attending the same event. The sponsors who go are constantly impressed by teams from all over the globe at champions, not just the teams form the local region. If we want these sponsors to keep being impressed, we need to keep everyone in the same location so that the people doing the funding can see the best robots from all over the world, not just from one region.

TL;DR: Dual championships is a bad idea because it inspires less, has less opportunity for lower tier teams to actually compete against the "best of the best", prevents a good deal of cultural interaction, and will not allow sponsors to see the best of the world, even though that is what they like to see.

Thanks for reading.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Here's my $0.02

It would have been cool of FIRST to ask what we thought before taking drastic measures like this....and I tried to see this the way FIRST is, but I cant, this is ridiculous.

FIRST has been going downhill, ever since they stopped allowing Grade 12's to compete for Dean's List and removed robot contact (This game has grown on me however, the can race is super fun to watch. Not hating on Recycle Rush). Now they want to take the Competition out of FIRST Robotics Competition.

A quote my old team always used to use was "Winning isn't everything, wanting to win is". You cant strive to be the best if you know you never can be, no matter how hard you try.

The goal is to inspire the kids and help promote STEM in them. You cant do that by taking away the drive. If you don't teach the kids to want to do better in robotics (and then life) then how are they ever going to succeed? Everyone can't be the best, life's not like that. They can however, try as hard as they possibly can, then go home happy with everything they have accomplished that season...and strive to be better next season. When they work super hard and finally make it to champs, they will know what success feels like.

Its been said before but the competition is what brings people to FIRST. I personally do not like what FIRST is becoming. Don't get me wrong, change is great....but the cons of this change greatly outweigh the pros. However I would love to be proven wrong. At the end of the day, if the kids are inspired and want to do better (win or lose) then its a good day, I just don't want them to lose the spark.

My views do not in any way represent my team. They are uniquely my own.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

That's good. Unless it's bad. :)

The timing seems odd to tell teams a partial story right at the point in the season when we are most burnt out. Canburglar prototypes make good pitchforks and torches in a pinch.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Noted, and chastened. I retract the implication that Cory et. al. have said blind spots, assume everyone must know about 254, etc. I'll edit the post to reflect that better.

I'm leaving my frustration at harrassing HQ staffers, however. And I'm curious what Cory finds "sadly unsurprising" about an HQ staffer never having been to a competition or never having heard of 254 or 1114.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Sorry if I'm out of turn but I think what Keven was saying in the quoted text was that it may not be fair to the staffer to hold it against them if they are unfamiliar with a certain team. Even if said team preforms well and is well known to many other participants. I don't think it was denouncing anyone.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I might as well break my "I will always lurk on CD and never post.

I'm not sure how I really feel about, mostly because I'm only a sophomore so I don't have a lot of experience. I went to worlds last year, that was definitely one of the greatest times in my life. Going into this year I was really unhappy with the game. Starting from Aerial Assist and going to Recycle Rush was very depressing. Last year my team focused on defense, so to see a game with no defense was disheartening.

Along with this, I've had issues in my life as to whether I continue to pursue my role on my robotics team. As the drive team coach and the head of the electrical team I'd feel bad if I just left. But as this year progresses I just see more and more things I don't like coming from FIRST. I really hope the community can change what is going on, or else I'm not sure if I really want to keep doing this.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I think criticizing whomever answers the phone at FIRST HQ is a little ridiculous. Come on now. The implication that there is a divide between FIRST HQ and the teams might be valid, but we're jumping the shark.

I will never hold it against anyone to not know who a particular team is. My ego is not that large.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I said two things were childish. The second was suggesting this means FRC is going to start handing out Champs participation trophies in the KoP or for simply showing up at Champs. That's ridiculous, will never happen, and suggesting it is a cheap rhetorical trick, not a serious argument against 2 Champs. It's childish.

The first was calling HQ mere hours after a major policy shift that won't have an effect till 2017 and demanding some random phone staffer explain the reasoning behind said policy. While teams are trying to manage 2015 Champs registrations and bookings. As I noted, nothing's going to change from people exploding at HQ today. All calling today would do is muck things up for teams trying to handle 2015 Champs. If you want to lobby for change, be smarter about it and organize. Don't take your knee-jerk reaction and start harassing random people that can't do anything about it. That's childish.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Not sure if post was unclear, but meant the 2nd and 3rd picks as in 17th-32nd picks of the serpentine drafts - you know, the teams that "ride the coat-tails" of the 1st and 2nd seed.

There would still be a competition, and while in this scenario the winning alliance in the non-premier event wouldn't be able to claim to be the World Champions, winning an event that big would still be an impressive feat.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I would never expect someone answering phones at FIRST HQ to know everything about FIRST and FRC - that's just an unrealistic expectation - but it would make me feel better if they were involved in and at the least bit knowledgeable of the programs that they work in. I wouldn't want a perspective new team to call in with questions and have the people answering the phones unable to help them. What does it say about an organization when its representatives aren't even aware of the main happenings within their area of work? How could FIRST tell us to look up to these example teams when their own faculty are unaware of the amazing contributions these teams have provided to their organization? How do they not know 254 when Barrage is literally sitting at FIRST HQ?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Would people really see a "Division II tournament" as Loser's Championship? There's no respect for being among the top ~25% best teams in the world?

I would think having a greater opportunity to be a big influence and win is motivating enough, let alone being able to meet and play with a lot of new robots for the first time. And since when were only the top 10% the only inspiring teams?

Honestly, in terms of competition achievement, I'd take a deep run in to play-offs of any championship over qualifications, regardless of the tournament. I think either would be inspiring and fuel for the following years.

For reference, in my head I'm ranking teams based on a district-like points basis.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm curious about one thing. Many have (rightly) lambasted FIRST for, among other things, devaluing the championship experience.
But whenever I, or a few other people, try to argue that districts are devaluing the regional experience, the argument is largely ignored. Why is that? Are they not as similar as I think, is it because the benefits of districts are more obvious, is it because most frequent posters here always go to championships...?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

According to FIRST, "2 is better than 1". I suppose quantity is better than quality then...

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I assumed he spoke with someone in team support who is familiar with the program. In retrospect that could clearly be a false assumption.

In general I was expressing frustration that there is a huge disconnect between HQ and what the "team experience" is. Obviously we have seen good steps taken to address that by Frank, but then they go and do something like release this without having sought out any team feedback, at which point they (very predictably) get nearly unanimously negative feedback. There surely was a better way to do this.

If it turns out we don't know the whole story (as Dave hinted to earlier in the thread) then it was silly for FIRST to not tell the whole story at the right time, in order to avoid all the outrage in the first place.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I wonder if a lot of the anger or frustration stems from there not seeming to be any consultation with actual FRC teams. We receive surveys after every single week of regionals because (theoretically) FIRST cares about our experience. I always found that reassuring.

But having 2 Championships dropped on us seemingly out of the blue is pretty shocking. Did no one see this coming? Was there some sort of secret poll or whispers going on last year?

When things change in FIRST, there's usually a few people who at least know the thinking behind the HQ decisions.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I like the concept, but it disappointing that not every team can compete againist each other.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Not a "Losers championship" but definitely in a different league. And there's nothing wrong with that. Gives more team the experience without sacrificing compete time teams experience.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

You don't have to earn your way into a regional/district event.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

First, welcome to the insanity, Im sad that this is where your first post is. Go check out the thread for quotes or the "addicted to FIRST" one :P


Dont give up on FIRST. Its a good program, and its heart is in the right place, even if they are going about it in a way that upsets people. The program overall and the people in it wont change based on a change to Worlds. Its an evolving program, and the first of its kind and of this scale. There are things that need to be figured out, and this is on the list of things.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=95

Pick order is not everything. Go look up 2014 Peachtree elims.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I wonder if first would be amenable to helping the winning team from one event travel to the other each year to crown a true world champ.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

No amount of financial support will help if students and mentors can't get time off from school/work to attend on 2~3 days notice.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

True. Time does pose a problem. But we'd be talking about flying in Friday night, getting first boys running and competing Saturday, then flying home. I bet most could free up a weekend.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I did speak with team support, to someone who said they had worked there for a few years (not a volunteer). It was not that they did not know specific teams, it was that they had no idea when I was referring to their numbers that I was talking about teams. That is a giant disconnect.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

...After some already took off 2, 3, 4 weekends for the competitions leading up to that. Also most bosses wouldn't be ecstatic about someone coming in on monday and saying they would need to be off again on Thursday or Friday to go to another World Championship. Even if you told them ahead of time it may be a possibility, you're just adding on another week that you would have to be off.

Also factor in that teams who pla at the second event have a strategic advantage of knowing who they would inevitably play in the finals if they made it that far.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I don't know if this was in response to my comment, but District points are not based purely on seed.

Also, I don't want to give the impression that the idea of tiering Championship (to Div I and Div II) is a fully-fleshed out idea, I just wanted to contest the argument that it would be harmful culturally, disrespected, and not inspiring.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

In my Grade 9 (Freshman) year, I attended the World Championships in 2013 as a kid who really didn’t know what he was getting into, who wasn’t really interested in engineering or computers outside of video games. When I got there, I then understood the sheer size of the FIRST Program, and how many people it’s reached.
During my time off from scouting, I walked around team’s pits, trying to visit the teams from places that I’ve never been to (shoutout to 27, 111, 118) . I’ve traveled around the States before as a tourist, but I never once imagined that in almost every place that I’ve been to, there are a ton of FIRST teams that I never saw. That really opened my eyes to how FIRST has spread. I visited the sponsor area, where I saw rows upon rows of opportunities and awesome exhibitions, all using the same skills and thought process applied in FIRST.
Two years later, my passion for FIRST has led me to love being at competition and talking to teams, and fortunately, my job at competitions lets me do just that. I love talking and learning about the robots and teams that have come from far away.
From experience, I’ve learned that the teams from the South approach the game in a much different way than we in the North do, and I think that if Championships was split into two region-locked areas, I wouldn’t get that same experience of learning their way of thinking, as well as losing the experience of sharing our method of approach.

And from a purely selfish standpoint, the Californian robots are all really cool and I'd be losing the chance to see them in real life.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

From FIRST on Facebook:

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I understand that your whole point is to segregate all the ultra-competitive teams into one of the Champs. While this theoretically solves the problem of defining the "true" world champ, it seems to exacerbate most other problems people have. Namely, it cuts off half of the champs population from ALL the elite teams while maintaining all the logistical issues of two Champs. And since you've decided the premier event is the one that really counts for world champs, how is everyone at the other event supposed to feel?

I mean honestly. If you absolutely have to crown the best team of the year for some reason, let's just all agree that IRI is the definitive world championship. I'm pretty sure most people think that already anyways.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Thats like saying the pro-bowl decides which NFL division is the best. No, the World Championship/Superbowl does.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Excited that they get to compete in another FIRST sponsored event, that they would not have been able to otherwise due to limited space at the championship event.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I just want to point out that in a scenario where champs tickets depended on what order you were added to your alliance you could send perfectly good teams who may be better all around than those who picked them to the wrong place.

I realize I said seed instead of pick order. Basically the alliance captain may not be more "high level" than the first or second pick and ranking on that metric is somewhat unreliable.

Thank you I have been looking for a way to explain this. I have been saying that it's like having the world cup stop with the top four teams and just calling them all winners

Re: Future First Championship News
 

It's not my first rodeo in a forums, but I can assure you this is one of the more strange forums I've gone to. Anyway, yeah I'm not giving up on the program, I'm more upset. Not to mention I have to decide between a job and robotics. While I want to do robotics a lot more, there's also a lot of issues in my team. It's a really tough position, I want to stick it out but it's tough.

Thanks for the support though! :D

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I would encourage everyone to take a couple of deep breaths here. The announcement caught us all off guard and the implications of it are shocking at first glace. I personally had the same gut reaction as many of you and still have many of those feelings. That being said, these changes wont come about until the 2017 season.

There are some things that I am sure FIRST can't change at this point (locations and dates), but they admitted that lots of other details are still being worked out. Lets not jump to any conclusions as I am sure more to this development will be announced in the near future, and with enough constructive feedback FIRST may re-consider some specific details or at least explain the reasoning behind some of the decisions.

Personally I am going to focus on the upcoming championship (two weeks away! :D ) and wait for more information. The world is not all doom and gloom, and on our worst days we still get to play with robots, even if there are 8 champions instead of 4.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Congratulations Oakland Raiders on a wonderful regular season, you now get to compete in the 2nd NFL playoffs with the NFL-Europe teams.

I doubt anyone associated with them or their fans would be as excited.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I have seen it work wonders on our students, mentors, and parents over the last two years. :)

If you're not good enough, I don't think the Championship or the DCMP is very inspiring either. It's no fun to get blown out of the water every match. In my experience, people on the team start complaining about how the schedule is rigged, or how everyone else has "cheated" in some way. Your mileage may vary.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This is quite literally how the Europa League works in European soccer. Finish in one of the top 4 spots in your division? You go to the Champions League (top level cup competition). The next two spots? Europa League. Both competitions are taken fairly seriously, and at the end there is a match between the champions of the two (The European Super Cup).

Not saying that it is necessarily the right thing to do for FRC, but there is precedent.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

So the 2016 champions, are they going to be the last "World" Champions, sorta in the same way that 217, 469 and 440 were the last Detroit Regional Champions? What's the labeling on this?

Also this reminds me of my comments on the thread for when they made most of the awards division level. How do we explain to our school that we were the "Houston Championship Tesla Division Imagery Award Winners". Really rolls off the tongue. Also now it's not 3 other teams that also won the division level award, and now it's not even 7 other teams that won the award. It's 15. Still prestigious, but less valuable. : /

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I've watched the drama unfold today and have been afraid to post since my opinion doesn't seem to lie with the majority, but here goes:

I understand the extreme disappointment that comes from the lack of a singular winning alliance, or a singular winning CCA, and I won't fight that point in particular.

However I do think we need to take a step back and view FIRST as a whole, or even just FRC as a whole. The portion of obsessed people that frequent CD only represents a small part of the people involved with the program. There are many, many people who dedicate their lives come build season, but only to their team, they don't necessarily follow FRC as a whole and keep up with all the top teams. Many of these people probably couldn't even name last year's winners.

I know many of the people on my team in particular only have even heard of 254 or 1114 if I've showed them videos, raved about their robots to them, etc. They simply aren't in our region, and they only see FRC at the competitions we go to, they don't spend nights on CD or watch other streams, but their just as dedicated to FRC and our team as anyone else is.

These people form a vast majority of the population of FIRST, heck I'd bet the majority of people in FIRST haven't even heard of CD. These people in general would be incredibly excited at this news. I know that once people on my team found out the news today they were ecstatic, because to be honest, they don't care whether champs crowns a single victor, they just love the extra opportunities to compete with a higher level of play.

Now this isn't to discredit the people on those teams like 254 and 1114, who reasonably are angry at this. I know if I were on one of those elite teams, my reaction probably would have been very different. And a significant part of the FRC-obsessed piece of me is extremely disappointed that this was FIRST's solution to the problem.

In no way was this the best solution to the problem in my opinion, I think expanding the 3-tiered system of districts -> regionals -> champs would have been the best solution, and I personally am frustrated with their secrecy before dumping this out of nowhere.

However, we have to understand that this does appeal to the larger majority of FIRST that isn't necessarily represented here on CD.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Several orgs do it that way. It's great.

Competitive Cheerleading (which I have coached for 14 years now) does the same thing, with NCA/UCA/The Cheerleading Worlds. Place at the top of those and you get invited to The Champions League. Top 15 teams are filmed and then it is shown at AMC Theaters across the country.

Cheerleading also holds an invitational championships at many levels, place well at the invitational and you get a bid to the full championships the next week. The invitational has the same rules/venue/experience, it is just a different level of competition. It allows those who just missed champs for whatever reason a chance to work their way up to the top.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This will not bode well for the future of FIRST if the information we have is close to complete. As of right now, it looks like the Championshplit will be the status quo for the years listed.

By taking the championship, one of the most inspiring things in FIRST, and cutting it in half, they have cut the inspiration in half, then removed sizable fractions from both, since so much inspiration comes from competing against the best. Did they not only remove the C from FR_, but also shrink the I from FiRST?

A number of teams, some of the best teams, go into the build season with the goal: "Win the World Championship". A number of people (myself included) go into the season with this goal. This change creates not only an existential crisis for FIRST HQ, but also for a number of teams (many of whom have spoken today), and these people. I took the year off from FIRST to focus on my studies and the rest of my life, in hopes of returning and achieving greater success with a new team, but with the Championship gone, I may not return at all.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

The idea prioritizes the prestige and competitiveness of each event over travel costs. It definitely has its flaws, but it appeals to people like me who are motivated by the competitive side of FRC.

In the same way championship(s) cuts off 75% of all teams from the "elite" teams. If separation was undesirable, two championships was not the right idea. There is always some sort of cut-off.

The original source of the suggestion (I believe) was made after accepting that two championship events is unavoidable, as the venues are booked in advance.

Excited to meet and play with other amazing robots, and proud of their achievement to make it to a championship?

If that's not facetious, it's unfortunately quite an insular view. IRI is an off-season tournament in the middle of July, with very little prestige outside of a cluster within the FRC community. People on CD are usually clued in, but I'd bet many, if not most teams, have never heard of IRI, nor regard it as "world championship". Let alone sponsors, or administrators and parents who may have to fund another trip, or disrupt summer vacations, in order to allow students to attend.

The concept of having divisions is not new: for example, it exists in the sport I play (Ultimate Frisbee*) where we have Div I Nationals (top 16) and Div II Nationals (17-32).

We only made it to Div II this year: are we disappointed? Yes. Will we take Div II seriously? Absolutely, we want to win it**

*UK university
**disclaimer - I'm actually going to St. Louis instead of going to Nationals.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I am particularly concerned about all the comments (not even just comments on this thread, comments on Facebook or personal conversations) about students only being inspired IF they get to attend Champs, and that being the reason that having 2 Champs where more teams get to attend is a good thing.

I was personally inspired by FRC my freshman year in late 2012, watching an off-season competition. I also attended Champs the following year in St. Louis to play Ultimate Ascent. I also attended Champs last year to play Areal Assist, and my team and I set a world record. This year, we did not qualify. I will not be attending Champs this season. But I can sure as hell tell you that not qualifying, having our season end so early, $@#$@#$@#$@#, has it set a fire underneath me to qualify next year. I wanted to see robots like 254, 1114, I wanted to compete. Kids will be inspired weather or not they go to Champs, they will have something to work towards if there is a Championships.

However, diving Champs into two events, hoping to give more kids the ability to attend? I want to know that I have earned my spot at Champs, and I want to compete with some of the best teams in the world and learn from them. I want to have something to work for. Imagine a Championships where you don't get to see your favorite robots win or lose, or imagine a year where 1114 wins Detroit and 254 wins Houston...imagine how incomplete that competition would be.

Please, if you agree with anything that I'm saying or that others have said, do something! Email, call FIRST. They have listened to us before, very recently in fact, because of our complaints and concerns (cheesecaking). Lets give FIRST the benefit of the doubt and give them our concerns, hopefully they'll listen.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

If you have a pessimistic view about it, sure. But if all you wanted was for your team/students to extend the season and compete officially one more time it would be wonderful.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I understand that. So then lets compare "extended season." Teams can have seniors compete one last time at post-season events. Example comparison: Panther Prowl vs 2015 World Championship. Which would you think would be the more inspiring event?

Its not a pessimistic view, its a realistic one.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Off season events by definition are not official FIRST events; which means there is no chance at an official award and that teams do not approach them in the same way. Even at the most highly esteemed IRI, quite a few teams will not compete with their regular season drive team (even if they haven't graduated, they like to identify potential new drivers), which means that as good as that event is, it is not as competitive as it could be.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Phew! This is a long thread.

The main grievances, from what I can tell, are:

1. Teams were not given a fair opportunity to provide input
2. This removes the opportunity to see the best teams, teams from around the world, and friends in the FIRST community all in one place
3. There are multiple champions, so none of them is the “real” champion
4. The idea of attending a Championship event is cheapened because there are two of them
5. FIRST tells you which event you’re going to, and it is based on geography
6. Travel costs and distances are not significantly lower for many teams (and increase for some)
7. Team quality at the championship events may be lower
8. Volunteer burn-out for those who try to attend both
9. Possible issues with sponsors/exhibitors who now have to attend 2 championships or select one

What are the positives?

1. Thousands more students at all age levels get to attend
2. Travel distances and costs are indeed lower for many teams
3. Economic benefit to the cities of Detroit and Houston
4. FIRST will become more prominent in these cities
5. More award winners at the highest level

And what don’t we know yet?

1. Will another Championship be added in the near future? (California? Virginia?)
2. Will a “super-championship” be added at a higher level?
3. Are there other things FIRST has planned but cannot yet announce?

If you think the negatives outweigh the positives, you have options.

• Email, call, tweet, comment, or facebook post to FIRST. An email address was provided: customerservice@usfirst.org. Politely explain your concerns. They won’t be answered immediately, but they have asked for your input so you may as well provide it. Maybe it’s not too late to change things. Or maybe with time and some more information, the community will start to sway more towards agreeing with, or at least understanding the decision.
• Go with it. Vent and discuss on CD, but understand that the conversation here will not be read by many people and is unlikely to change things.
• Boycott Championships. Have your lead mentor write a letter explaining to FIRST that beginning in 2017 you will not attend a championship event if you qualify, because you want to preserve the integrity and culture of the single World Championships.

(Please note that I am not advocating for any particular option)

Re: Future First Championship News
 

The champions league is the biggest thing to win right under the Euro and the World cup itself.

Qualifications are a bit more strict than that for the champions league as well. 3 teams from spain, 3 from germany, 3 from england, 2 from italy, 2 from france, 2 from portugual, and 1 from various other countries.

I think the best route would be to have one championship be for regional winners, and the other for chairmans, EI, rookie, etc.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Another positive:

Access to a larger pool of event volunteers

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Oh so you think teams are playing just for the stuff that says FIRST on them. Then you sir, have missed the boat entirely.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Detroit. In April. Awesome.

Do you think we could bring along our local Sheriff's Department as escorts from our hotel to the events?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

As Carolyn mentioned earlier in the thread;

Before we make any assumptions, I would like to hear from a Detroit resident as well. Most of the Michigan FIRSTers are currently at MSC, I'm sure, so it may be a day or two.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

It's not that bad.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

In 2005, I drove my team's robot at IRI for one match. It was an amazing experience, I'm glad it happened but it was not in the best interest of my team for that competition. I was terrible, we lost the match. It was an opportunity that my team could NOT afford to give me at a regional or a championship event because the stakes are much higher and the cost per match that much more.

If everyone on my team that wanted a turn was allowed one, I can only imagine there are other teams that do similarly at off season events.

I don't think my team missed the boat entirely that year, I think they got it right.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

No you misunderstood my post. You think that just calling a 2nd event a "FIRST Championship" will make teams want to win it more; I believe it will not. Teams fight tooth and nail to win the current World Championship, not because it's FIRST's, but because of the prestige it holds amongst the community.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

It sounds like a big grievance is the fact that the competitive nature of FRC is removed.

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I was never initially attracted to FRC because of its competitive nature, nor do I try to attract students to my FIRST team because of its competitive nature.

My team has arguably a terrible robot this year, by competition standards. This however has no bearing on whether my team was a success or not, and while it does have some bearing in certain students' minds, I choose to actively not let it.

The reason I am attracted to FIRST is because of the ideal that inspiration can be attained without winning. The reason I am attracted to FIRST is not that they want to become a sport, but that they want to add an addendum to the meaning of sport.

I realize not everyone feels this way, and yes it potentially will isolate some people. But I implore everyone to truly consider what the core underlying value of this program is.

I ultimately side with some of the folks here that feel that we all need to finish venting and re-group in a few weeks. If you choose to leave FIRST or not, remember that we are ultimately here trying to inspire students from all different backgrounds that not only STEM is a great opportunity, but that a little inspiration (in whatever form) can go a long way.


I want to say some of us on our team are absolute "Chezy" fanboys and forever will want to strive to be at their level whether we play with them, see them, or not

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I think the size of the event will make it prestigious even if the top 10% of the teams are not there; I don't see anyone able to organize a 400+ team event in the off-season.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

....no, thats not how it works.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I think it's concerning that FIRST would release Recycle Rush, probably the least accessible game for low/middle tier teams in the last couple of years and then talk about how inclusive they are.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Your students care about achieving victory, but since you don't care, you conclude that it doesn't matter for your team? Is the program for you, or for your students?



Most people who say "winning doesn't matter" have not won enough to have a balanced opinion on the issue.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Personally I don't think that the District > DCMP > Super Regional > CMP is a sustainable proposition. CMP would become a competition of the "rich and retired". Yes district events reduce the cost for some teams while greatly increasing it for others. Depending on where you live in relation to the district events or previous regionals and whether they are Fri-Sat or Sat-Sun events it means that your time away from work or school can stay the same or possibly go up. Traveling to DCMP can cost similar to going to a second Regional but less than half of the teams currently do so.

I think the longer term solution is a District > Regional CMP > World CMP path. My proposal would be that we still define and run the individual districts as they do now however instead of advancing the top team to a DCMP they advance to the RCMP and from there teams advance to WCMP. The cost to the teams that advance to the RCMP can go up or down vs the DCMP depending on where they live of course but overall it is more sustainable economically and from a volunteer and time away aspect. More teams get to experience a Championship event and there is still one WCMP event.

Because I do agree that experiencing a CMP type event is very beneficial I'd propose that in each district there are a number of reserved lottery spots to move on to the RCMP. If you advance on merit you aren't eligible for a lottery spot for say 3-4 years and if you advance on that lottery slot again you aren't eligible for another in say another 3-4 years. I'd propose that a RCMP would include the FLL and FTC programs like CMP currently does and have say 200 FRC teams at each of the 3-5 RCMPs. You would get more teams to a CMP experience and they wouldn't only be the ones that could afford the entry fees, travel costs and time off on a regular basis like I fear that a D > DCMP > SR > CMP system would. I'm not sure where I stand on giving lottery slots away at the RCMP to go to CMP.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This thread on city-data (yes, they refer to themselves on the board as CD) discusses perceptions around safety in Detroit, with input from those who live there: http://www.city-data.com/forum/detro...-safety-5.html

This site contains a pretty exhaustive list of things to do in Detroit: http://www.visitdetroit.com/things-to-do-in-detroit

Re: Future First Championship News
 

http://www3.usfirst.org/aboutus/vision

Where does it say "win"?

In my humble opinion, we all win if our students are inspired to be science and technology leaders by mentoring these students in programs that celebrate the learning of these skills.

You don't have to win to gain inspiration.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm pretty sure he was just trying to say that he focuses on his team's successes (which are abundant) as opposed to their failures. 5125 won a regional last year and attended the FIRST Championship. Certainly competitive success is a goal for the team but they are not only defined by it.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Corollary: Victory produces more inspiration.

Of course students can be inspired if they don't win anything. If they do win, they'll become more motivated, more willing to learn, and more confident. My personal experience, at least.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

How do you have leadership without winning?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

How do you know his students care about victory?

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I grew up about 40 minutes outside of Detroit. I can say for a fact that riverwalk area of downtown (including Cobo Hall, Hart Plaza, and the Reniessiance Center is extremely safe. I've specifically worked with charitable organizations to provide food and other necessities to the homeless people in this area. These are the people that are too docile and/or weak to actually survive in the homeless shelters, which are much rougher areas. Any reasonably sized group would be safe near the river, even at night.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

As a student who went to Championships in 2009, I was inspired by winning the 10,000 Lakes Regional but I was more inspired by attending FIRST Championships. We only won 1 match while at FIRST Championships but it is an experience I'll never forget and it is the reason I am still here today.

FIRST Championships is inspiring and the more students, mentors, parents and volunteers I can get there to experience it, the better.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

With the champs placed in this way teams from Michigan and Ontario especially will see the same teams at the regional and worlds.

Look at my teams situation. We are about 15 minutes away from team 4039, 25 minutes away from 1114, 45 minutes away from 3683, 865, 1241, and 2852 and no lie I can see the 2056 shop from outside my window as I type this.

So if my team will ever get the opportunity to go to worlds it will feel almost like the Waterloo or Windsor regional. We would not have the chance to meet teams from the south. It would just be the same teams that we have been seeing for the last 5 or so weeks.

So just like everyone else in this thread I will have to put in my negative vote. If there is any way to not have the dual champs happen I would love to see that

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I definitely don't think "winning" in the sense of being the best team at an event is necessary for leadership. There are hundreds of teams out their, mine included, that produced many outstanding student leaders, without so much as winning a single award at a competition, not to mention winning the event. But they were passionate about their team, their peers, and the FIRST program, which is what made them outstanding leaders.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

You don't need to win to inspire students in the same way that you don't need recycling containers to score high in a match in 2015.

Could it be done without? Sure, but it makes accomplishing the goal a helluva lot easier, and is arguably more effective.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

He said it in his post.

As a student who went to Championships in 2012, I was inspired by attending.

As a student who went to Championships in 2013 and in 2014, I was inspired by attending but I was more inspired by winning my team's division and walking onto Einstein. I was inspired by knowing that my and my team's efforts culminated in robots that were among the best in the world, and that I could compete against the best in the world. Now FIRST wants to throw away half those teams, and make victory half-hollow.

My team's loss in the finals of 2014 was bitter to me. But it would have been bitterer still if we had won, only to know that an alliance superior to ours was elsewhere, separated from doing battle with us by a bureaucracy grown fat, greedy, and myopic from decades of holding a monopoly on high-level robotics competition.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

Winning, the experience of winning, isn't crucial. If it was, the only teams who would have any ground to be disappointed in the changes would be the actual winners of the north and south championship events

Winning, the objective, the thing you can point to and say "See that? We want to do that. What can we do to make our program better, to improve our chances at that?" is what has grown FIRST from 28 teams in a high school gym to where it is today. As a result, every team which uses it to drive them forward has a right to be upset. It's a proven motivator, and we should do our best to preserve it as a part of our program.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I agree you don't have to win an award or an event, or even get picked for eliminations. But, I think you do have to care about winning and you've got pick up some wins along the way (sometimes those wins are simply "We scored a point!"), which was the original poster's point.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

If winning creates more inspiration, isn't that an argument for the 2 WCMP model? Twice the winners is twice the inspiration.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

In that case, let's take it to the logical extreme, and declare everyone a winner on Kickoff day. That would work, right?

No. Two championships cheapens the experience. As has been said many, many times already in this thread.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I'm pretty sure leadership just requires a goal to lead towards. For some that may be winning in various forms. For others that might be the whole learning, inspiring, engineering thing. Karthik's Game Strategy presentation points out you have to have a goal to work towards and he pretty clearly notes that it doesn't have to be winning. It could be "designing a cool robot" or "having the best autonomous". Winning competitions is an obvious choice, but it's not the only one.

Unless you're defining winning as "achieving your goals". In which case I agree that winning is necessary for effective leadership. That's probably not the definition we're talking about here, though.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This is basically forced mediocrity.

My team was upset after we were selected in the second round and getting bounced in QF's after being in SF's the week prior (as third wheel) against a deeper talent pool.... knowing we were highly sought after by nearly all of the strongest alliances in the third round as certain picks. I had to explain to them why we did not want to be a third wheel as our ticket to the worlds we take where we are picked second round and its on us to win if we are able..they all understood, not sure how I explain the two championship model as not everyone can be a winner...hard work and innovation should count....entry should be earned and should be difficult. Rather sit as a second versus in as a third when your stats say you are a truly a second otherwise. I as a mentor knew going in we needed to win one of the regionals we registered for, we didn't and that's 100% on us to do better next year or gain entry with one of the two remaining non-competitive methods or as a long shot wildcard...it should be hard. With failure comes significant improvement.

This is making 1000's of kids third wheels...by design and its too easy. Its good enough championship x2...in 2017. The world does not operate that way. Where's the life lesson for the kids? Its tough out there and FIRST should reflect that challenge every chance they get rather than seeking "profit" and "mediocrity" that teaches nothing good, in an organization promoting non-profit and STEM.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

I understand that two championships cheapens the experience for you. I would like to note that this is not a universal truth, as has also been said many times in this thread.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

The negative part about this change to me, and likely many others, is the fact that the experience just won't be the same. Someone brought up that they would pretty much be seeing many of the same teams that they have been competing with for the prior two months. Where is the fun in that?

The exciting part about Championships, for me, was getting to collaborate and talk with teams from around the country and the world. With this change, you lose a lot of that. Being a college student and beginning my engineering journey, I now enjoy talking with teams about why they came to the design choices they made and how it could be used elsewhere to benefit society. I know for a fact that I was looking forward to seeing some teams at the Championships this year to ask about these very things. Under the new plan, I would not be to talk with some of the teams that I have on my list to talk to because of the "geographical boundaries" that would occur.

I really don't know why FIRST has decided to split the Championships, especially after the excitement of last year. Maybe they got too caught up in the Recognition part of FIRST and forgot that the teams were already doing a great job of spreading knowledge of STEM around the world.

Re: Future First Championship News
 

This is now the longest non-game thread on Chief Delphi.