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MysterE 09-04-2015 11:19
Future First Championship News
 
From: http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-...p-announcement

Quote:
We are writing today with some truly exciting news!

More than 25 years ago, FIRST® became a game changer in the STEM world.

Over the years, we’ve built an incredible culture with our K-12 FIRST Progression of Programs that celebrates kids’ accomplishments through high-quality, inspiring, life-changing experiences, the culmination of which is our FIRST Championship.

Today, we are proud to announce that FIRST is about to change the game again, for the better! Beginning in 2017, we are expanding the FIRST Championship by bringing our Sport for the Mind™ to two FIRST Championship host cities.

Why are we so excited about this expansion? We all know how transformative the FIRST experience can be. We want more kids to feel the passion and power that comes with being a part of FIRST Championship events.

In addition, by hosting Championships in multiple cities, we seek to reduce the travel distances and associated travel expenses for a significant number of our teams.

We continue to witness substantial growth of interest in our mission, our programs, and our annual Championship. Far beyond what we can currently accommodate, a growing number of young people are eager to participate and compete in our iconic, international celebration; yet due to space limitations, and sometimes travel costs, only a small fraction of teams can participate in the FIRST Championship.

Therefore, in 2017, FIRST will host two Championship events on subsequent weekends, still celebrating our full Progression of Programs at each – one event in Houston at the George R. Brown Convention Center, the Toyota Center (home of the Houston Rockets) and Minute Maid Park (home of the Houston Astros) April 19-22, 2017, followed by a second event the following weekend (April 26-29, 2017) in St. Louis.

Beginning in 2018, our dual Championship will be celebrated in Houston, as described above, April 18-21, 2018 and on the second weekend in Detroit at the Cobo Center and Ford

Field (home of the Detroit Lions), April 25-28, 2018. This alignment will continue for 2019 and 2020.

FIRST is the oldest and largest student robotics program in the world, and now we can deliver the FIRST Championship experience to thousands more young people worldwide! This expansion increases the capacity of the FIRST Championship by more than 100 percent compared to 2014, allowing us to better align Championship capacity with on-going team growth. With two locations, many more teams will be able to access a Championship event without air travel.

We know there are lots of questions for us to answer. We will be working hard on many details in the months to come, and as that process takes place, we’ll share additional information, so please stay tuned.

As previously announced, between now and 2017, we will continue to hold an expanded, Olympic-style Championship throughout downtown St. Louis, and we look forward to seeing many of you there.

We cannot thank the city of St. Louis, the Volunteers, the Mayor, and the Governor of the state of Missouri enough for all that they have done for our organization since 2011. We look forward to hosting wonderful Championship events in this city for the next three years, and we know that the city and all of its FIRST participants will remain an important part of the FIRST family in the future.

Thank you for the critical role you play at FIRST. Thank you for helping us open the door to the next chapter in which FIRST can reach more students and change more lives around the world.

BBray_T1296 09-04-2015 11:22
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Video announcement from Don Bossi

Wetzel 09-04-2015 11:22
Re: Future First Championship News
 
2 Woodie Flowers Award winners!

AdamHeard 09-04-2015 11:23
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Why stop here? Cancel all regionals, cancel all districts, let's have 12 (or more) World Championships!

Better yet, skip the event, and crown every team a world champion!

PayneTrain 09-04-2015 11:24
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Some people would say this is different.

That is one word for it.

bscharles 09-04-2015 11:26
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This just feels weird. It's not really "the" world championship anymore. If a team wins, can they say the were "the" world champions? Or are they just "the world champions among the teams in the regions close to them"?

JohnSchneider 09-04-2015 11:26
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Splitting FRC into 2 events does more damage to its integrity as a sport than anything else possibly could. This absolutely cannot be the case if they want people to take it seriously.

JohnFogarty 09-04-2015 11:26
Re: Future First Championship News
 
The location choices are lnteresting. not sure it's going to save my team any money. Both Houston and Detriot are out of the question in terms of driving distance from SC. I miss having the championship in my backyard.

Michael Corsetto 09-04-2015 11:27
Re: Future First Championship News
 
"Presenting your 2017 Half-World Champions" doesn't have quite the same ring to it...

smistthegreat 09-04-2015 11:28
Re: Future First Championship News
 
If FIRST wants more FRC teams to experience a "Championship" event, expand the district system. Let the bulk of teams get their "Championship" experience at the district championship level. Keep one central location for a world championship. I really don't like this.

Thad House 09-04-2015 11:28
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This makes no sense. The biggest groups of teams are spread from minnesota to NE, and then on the West Coast. Why put an event in Texas, which is much further away. If you are going to add a second champs, put it west of the rockies somewhere. That way you actually save teams money. Or just keep 1 championship event...

cgmv123 09-04-2015 11:29
Re: Future First Championship News
 
http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-...p-announcement

Quote:
Future FIRST Championship Q&A

Where and when will the FIRST Championship be held in the coming years?

2015: St. Louis, MO: April 22-25, 2015

2016: St. Louis, MO: April 27-30, 2016

2017: Houston, TX: April 19-22, 2017
St. Louis, MO: April 26-29, 2017
2018: Houston, TX: April 18-21, 2018
Detroit, MI: April 25-28, 2018
2019: Houston, TX: April 17-20, 2019
Detroit, MI: April 24-27, 2019
2020: Houston, TX: April 15-18, 2020
Detroit, MI: April 29- May 2, 2020
Why is FIRST holding multiple Championships?

FIRST knows how transformative the FIRST Championship experience can be for students (and for Coaches, Mentors, Volunteers, Sponsors, etc.) and we want more kids to feel the passion and power that comes with being a part of a FIRST Championship.

By expanding to multiple cities for Championship, our goal is to grow capacity and enable more young people, across all of our full Progression of Programs, to experience the thrill of the FIRST Championship.

In addition, by hosting the Championship events in two separate cities, we seek to reduce the travel distances and associated travel expenses for a significant number of teams.

Which Championship will my team attend? Can we go to both?

While FIRST appreciates teams’ enthusiasm for attending either or both Championship celebrations, our goal is to enable as many teams and students as possible to experience a FIRST Championship. Based on geographic location, teams from all four programs will be assigned to attend one of the events.

Each Championship will serve a still-to-be-defined geographic region in an effort to minimize travel distance and travel cost, while balancing team attendance at both events.

Will there now be two sets of Championship Awards and recognition?

Our most prestigious honors, such as the FIRST Robotics Competition Chairman’s Award; FIRST Tech Challenge Inspire Award; FIRST LEGO League Champion’s Award, the Dean’s List Award and other top honors, will be replicated and celebrated at each event - while the FIRST LEGO League Global Innovation Award and the FIRST Future Innovator Award (for FRC and FTC) will be given outside of the events. Finalists for these two awards will be announced at both events.

I support multiple teams across various FIRST Programs. Will they all be going to the same Championship?

In addition to qualification based on performance or ranking, FIRST will determine what teams attend which event based on geographical location of the team and by balancing team capacity at both events. Hence, it is highly likely that the geography for FTC teams at a given Championship will align with the geographies for FLL and FRC teams at the same event. However, we are still in the process of determining those geographic alignments for each Championship.

For the FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC) Program, how will the new Championship model impact the four FTC Super Regionals?

FIRST is working out all of the details and options associated with the continued high growth of the FTC program. We will review capacity at both the Super Regionals and the Championship level before making a final decision. FTC expects accelerated growth in the coming years with the recently announced Android™ based, Qualcomm powered communications and control platform. The new system will be demonstrated at the FIRST Championship in St. Louis, April 22-25, 2015

What activities will be happening in each of the venues in each of the Championship host cities?

In 2015 and 2016, FIRST will host an expanded Olympic-style Championship throughout downtown St. Louis. In 2017, the St. Louis Championship will be similarly sized to the 2014 Championship held there

For the Houston Championship, Opening Ceremonies will be held in the Toyota Center, home of the Houston Rockets. Competition matches for all programs will be held in the George R. Brown Convention Center, followed by Closing Ceremonies in Minute Maid Park, home of the Houston Astros, which has a retractable roof.

For the Detroit Championship, Opening and Closing Ceremonies will be held in Ford Field, an enclosed domed stadium, which is home to the Detroit Lions. Competition matches for all programs will be held in Cobo Center.

Each city has been chosen with our visitors in mind and each location – St. Louis, Houston, and Detroit has many opportunities for outdoor and recreational activities, as well as arts and cultural experiences, and simply sightseeing. We invite you to watch for detailed descriptions on the FIRST website as the dates come closer.

In the meantime, take a look at the tourist attractions as detailed on each of these visitor websites:
http://explorestlouis.com/visit-expl...o-in-st-louis/
http://www.visitdetroit.com/
http://www.visithoustontexas.com/things-to-do/

We realize this is only a small subset of the questions you might have. As we move forward, we welcome your questions and suggestions, and will keep you informed as more details become available. Please send your questions to customerservice@usfirst.org.

Joe G. 09-04-2015 11:29
Re: Future First Championship News
 
As we try to improve the quality of our team, we spend a lot of time looking at the teams who have built effective programs, and what makes them tick. And a common trend, perhaps above all others, is a relentless pursuit of being the best in the world. It builds dominant, inspiring robots, and it builds quality experiences for students.

Not exactly thrilled that the motivation that drives the programs which move FIRST forward has been taken down a couple notches.

Whatever happened to that "super regional" model which was floating around for a while? I imagined that these events would rise to a prestige and experience quality level near that of the championship, while maintaining a central goal to work towards?

JohnFogarty 09-04-2015 11:30
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I'm confused why they aren't implementing super regional events like FTC does. 2 WC events is going to be harmful to the overall quality of this program.

Wetzel 09-04-2015 11:30
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Who is going to be the first team to be a true World Champion in the 2 championship era by winning both?

Pauline Tasci 09-04-2015 11:32
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I think this take's a lot away from what Champs is all about. Your competing with the best of the best in the entire world in one place. You get to meet with thousands of people who love FIRST the same way you do, you get to meet your friends from different coasts and trade shirts, you have the ability to be the WORLD champions, and get to see those robots that have been winning all their events. Splitting it into 2 different champs would eliminate all of that.
There would be no world champions, you would never meet your favorite team on the other side of the world, the competition would go down severely.
This just does not seem like a good idea and I would LOVE to hear the discussion when they decided this was a good idea.

Because right now I believe the cons are out weighing the pros.

Breakaway3937 09-04-2015 11:33
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I do not like this one bit. With the incorporation of the districts, that should be used to reduce the number of teams that qualify for Worlds while giving teams an additional exciting event. This idea is going to kill the excitement and climax of the "World Championships". I really hope that FIRST reconsiders the structure of this or adds one more event for the Champions of the two events to compete against one another. I have been a huge supporter of FIRST and what they have done for students around the world. While the impact on the students will not be changed, the competitive environment will definitely be altered and greatly tarnished.

gafftron 09-04-2015 11:34
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetzel (Post 1468149)
Who is going to be the first team to be a true World Champion in the 2 championship era by winning both?
FIRST actually dictates which Championship you go to and you're only allowed to go to one.

I feel like this is a step backwards for the program. More teams should be going into the district model with district championships so teams get the experience that way with the best of the best moving on to the singular world championship. Just my two cents...

Tom Bottiglieri 09-04-2015 11:34
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Really sad news. I get that we are trying to reach more students, but this seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

smistthegreat 09-04-2015 11:35
Re: Future First Championship News
 
"While FIRST appreciates teams’ enthusiasm for attending either or both Championship celebrations, our goal is to enable as many teams and students as possible to experience a FIRST Championship. Based on geographic location, teams from all four programs will be assigned to attend one of the events."

Does this mean that my team, being closer to Detroit, will no longer get an opportunity to compete with every single team that's geographically closer to Houston? I think this is a terrible idea. Part of the draw of CMP is it being a gathering of friends and competitors from around the country and the world.

These new events aren't world championships. They're glorified "super-regionals."

BBray_T1296 09-04-2015 11:35
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This poses some interesting questions. Will one championship event be "better" to attend than the other? If one of the main points is to reduce travel costs, it is an easy statement that any teams from Texas who qualify for Worlds will go to the Houston CMP, while anyone from Canada or FiM will probably find themselves in Detroit. I feel like this could produce an OPR discrepency. Perhaps this could be leveled by the divvying of teams such as MAR and West Coast teams whose costs may be similar between both events.

Also, will there be a "grand champion" matchup where the Houston champion and STL/Detroit champion alliances face off for an ultimate crown?

I feel like this division sets a precedent for future-proofing the whole competition organization. Sudden increase in teams in Europe? Put a CMP there. Number of teams on the West Coast quadruple? Put a CMP there. It is possible that this introduces another tier of competition where, like all the districts feed their district champs, those district champs feed poly-district champs, which ultimately feed another, higher WCMP level.

Mackenzie W 09-04-2015 11:35
Re: Future First Championship News
 
If they're going that far north, does this mean Toronto might actually get the Championships at some point? I really have no clue what to say about this, other than that this means IRI and similar offseason events will be determining actual world champions now.

JVN 09-04-2015 11:36
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1468142)
"Presenting your 2017 Half-World Champions" doesn't have quite the same ring to it...
"One of the important things about FIRST and maybe what separates us from other sports is that we're an inclusive organization we're about not about picking a winner at the expense of others but celebrating everybody's accomplishments and success."

lynca 09-04-2015 11:36
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I'm certain FIRST will be listening to teams and their ideas on how to define the new championship structure.

Keep the feedback constructive and let's help grow the program to new heights.

smurfgirl 09-04-2015 11:37
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
In addition, by hosting Championships in multiple cities, we seek to reduce the travel distances and associated travel expenses for a significant number of our teams.
I don't see how hosting two Championships in the middle of the country reduces travel distances or costs for the huge population of teams along the two coasts.

I'm not sure I really understand the motivation behind this decision.

JohnSchneider 09-04-2015 11:38
Re: Future First Championship News
 
It says in the release that teams are region locked. How is geographically restricting teams fostering exchange of ideas between teams from different states or even countries.

Now when my students want to go study and look at an 1114 or 254 robot they may never get the chance? Ridiculous.

lucas.alvarez96 09-04-2015 11:38
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Our most prestigious honors, such as the FIRST Robotics Competition Chairman’s Award; FIRST Tech Challenge Inspire Award; FIRST LEGO League Champion’s Award, the Dean’s List Award and other top honors, will be replicated and celebrated at each event
So does that mean that two teams will be inducted yearly into the HoF? Will there also be 6 winners, and like others have said before, 2 "half-world champs"? Considering the expansion of FIRST and its exponential growth, evidenced by the creation of even more teams every year, it seems to be a good move, but are the awards and winners being picked fairly and correctly?

...maybe there'll be an Einstein regional... :ahh: :ahh:

pwnageNick 09-04-2015 11:39
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This is also almost guaranteed to conflict the VEX World Championship nearly every year from now on unless VEX bends over backwards to not conflict, which they already went out of their way to do this year with only one FIRST Championship event.

JeffersonMartin 09-04-2015 11:39
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This move makes absolutely no sense to me. Splitting the teams up into two events will, in my opinion, do the opposite of inspire people. And don't even get me started on crowning two world champions.

Travis Hoffman 09-04-2015 11:40
Re: Future First Championship News
 
"IRI - Where True Champions are Crowned"

JohnFogarty 09-04-2015 11:40
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfgirl (Post 1468160)
I don't see how hosting two Championships in the middle of the country reduces travel distances or costs for the huge population of teams along the two coasts.

I'm not sure I really understand the motivation behind this decision.
This

MechEng83 09-04-2015 11:40
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Will we only ever get to see hall of fame teams from our half-world now?

On the plus side, this could make IRI the "true" championship.

efoote868 09-04-2015 11:40
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetzel (Post 1468149)
Who is going to be the first team to be a true World Champion in the 2 championship era by winning both?
Winner of IRI of course. :p

PayneTrain 09-04-2015 11:41
Re: Future First Championship News
 
What I will say is that FIRST recognized there is a problem with Championships. It's an event every team should go to at least once because just being there is a transformative experience, and by the time we move to this format, probably around 1/6 of teams would have had a chance to go to champs at the FRC level.

That's ignoring the fact that the other programs have no room at all to invite teams to compete in such a great environment. I am not convinced this was the best solution that could be executed, but we as a program need to keep trying new things together and figuring out what works and what doesn't together.

cadandcookies 09-04-2015 11:43
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Well, this will be interesting.

dodar 09-04-2015 11:43
Re: Future First Championship News
 
FIRST, April Fool's Day was 8 days ago. This isn't funny.

I'm sorry, but this is honestly the dumbest idea FIRST has ever put forth; yes, even more so than Lunacy.

mklinker 09-04-2015 11:44
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN (Post 1468158)
"One of the important things about FIRST and maybe what separates us from other sports is that we're an inclusive organization we're about not about picking a winner at the expense of others but celebrating everybody's accomplishments and success."
Amen.....Is it really about the championship or is it more about the experience?

Having just agonized over declining a wait list position for 2015 this excites me very much to know that I have a better shot of having my team attend championships in the future!

Eugene Fang 09-04-2015 11:44
Re: Future First Championship News
 
"Two championships reduces travel costs for teams."

So they put one north and one south instead of east/west? Go figure.

cgmv123 09-04-2015 11:45
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Most of my thoughts have been expressed by others, but it's interesting how FIRST didn't even see how this year's Championship with its new model went before announcing this change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1468172)
FIRST, April Fool's Day was 8 days ago. This isn't funny.
Yup.

Thad House 09-04-2015 11:45
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1468172)
FIRST, April Fool's Day was 8 days ago. This isn't funny.

I'm sorry, but this is honestly the dumbest idea FIRST has ever put forth; yes, even more so than Recycle Rush.
FTFY

Tom Bottiglieri 09-04-2015 11:45
Re: Future First Championship News
 
So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?

dodar 09-04-2015 11:46
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mklinker (Post 1468173)
Amen.....Is it really about the championship or is it more about the experience?

Having just agonized over declining a wait list position for 2015 this excites me very much to know that I have a better shot of having my team attend championships in the future!
How would you feel if you went to "a" championship that didnt have 254, 1114, 148, 987, 118, 624? I would feel cheated on the experience.

AdamHeard 09-04-2015 11:46
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 1468177)
So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?
We're in.

Sparky3D 09-04-2015 11:49
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 1468177)
So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?
I'm listening... :D

James1902 09-04-2015 11:50
Re: Future First Championship News
 
My favorite part of the Championship event is the chance to see robots and teams from around the world. This move, to my eye, seems to dilute and degrade the Championship experience instead of opening it up to more teams. I'm not sure that splitting the FIRST community in two is a good idea.

And ditto all the mentions of two world champion alliances, it was difficult enough trying to explain splitting a title three ways.

Boltman 09-04-2015 11:50
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Can we say money grab? Its like the NFL expanding playoffs...lets have over half the teams make it and make more money.
Its sickening. People in FRC should respond to this complete farce.

Steven Donow 09-04-2015 11:51
Re: Future First Championship News
 
From a, 'response to the growth of FIRST programs' this change makes sense.

But from the FRC perspective, it makes absolutely no sense.

But it's such a tricky issue with the areas that have absolutely no easy way to switch to districts in the time being.

We'll see how this plays out, but I'd assume everything's already set and booked...not the best way to go about this...FIRST should have proposed the idea of splitting Championship geographically (ie. when they announced expanded 2015 champs or continued STL champs), wait for the reaction, then proceed from there. If they announced the venues, then clearly they're at a phase where legally, this can't be changed.

Unless they (and please, please, please let this be the end solution) split championship by program. Don't make FRC (FIRST's premier program) suffer it's own growth due to other FIRST programs growing.

I don't view the awards change as 'giving every team a championship', but I'm not a fan of the huge amount of awards that will be given out, ie. two CCAs.

Also, as much as we're negative about it here on the FRC-side, I'm curious to see what FTC/FLL people think about it, because their opinions do matter; it's a FIRST-focused change

dodar 09-04-2015 11:51
Re: Future First Championship News
 
FIRST Championship 2020 Motto: You get a championship, you get a championship, you get a championship!

Maybe FIRST is trying to slowly announce Oprah is taking over for Dean.

Drakxii 09-04-2015 11:51
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Wow... what a terrible plan. Why not just go the FTC route with super regional then champs? Also while I get the point of Detroit with all of the teams in MI and Quebec, but Houston? Really? Not a west coast city like LA or SD or Seattle?

Edit "Constructive Feedback":

Why not have 3 super regionals at Detroit, LA and Orlando with ~240 teams each. Then using district like point system send ~120 teams to a real world champs in Houston.

KeeganP 09-04-2015 11:52
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I wasn't at Champs last year, but I was in 2011 -- and i do remember it being very crowded. And this year, there are even more teams. I think that making a change is good. That said, I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.

The district system is great because it allows you to go to "regionals," and then a (district) championship. I like this system because it gives teams an opportunity to compete multiple times, and then attend a championship event, which could qualify them for the FRC World Championship.

What I don't like about this new layout, is that FIRST is now moving into an even more district-like system, but without the championship part. We now have the winners of district championships (and regionals) competing at two "Super Regionals" that have no ending championship. You instead end up with a set of winners from different sides of the globe, and don't know if 1114 or 254 (just an example) really is better than the other in a given year.

What FIRST should do, if they plan to follow through with this new format, is move these regional championships slightly sooner, and have a true world championship event afterward, even if it means fewer teams. I know I, and my team, are inspired by seeing the greatest robots each year competing, even if it is from home. The world champs could be smaller, but with all the presentation sessions streamed online. I feel that FIRST could embrace technology and really make the championships even better for all teams. Just because your team isn't competing at champs doesn't mean you can't learn a lot from watching it all -- and we're at a point today where we can use technology to bring all the action back home to teams very easily.

(Sorry this got so long...)

Wetzel 09-04-2015 11:53
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltman (Post 1468184)
Can we say money grab? Its like the NFL expanding playoffs...lets have over half the teams make it and make more money.
Its sickening. People in FRC should respond to this farce.
If you can explain how hosting two events with more teams will make more money, I'm interested.

notmattlythgoe 09-04-2015 11:54
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I umm...I just...I don't get it...

Boltman 09-04-2015 11:55
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetzel (Post 1468190)
If you can explain how hosting two events with more teams will make more money, I'm interested.
$5000 a pop x 2 + the hotel kickbacks...completely a money grab. Still puts coast teams one high expense status. One of the so-called championship events is going to be the ugly step-child but yet the fees are the same..where do international teams go? The best one.

AdamHeard 09-04-2015 11:55
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I'm really surprised the FIRST apologists aren't out in force on this one.

Or are even they disillusioned by this?

Cory 09-04-2015 11:55
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetzel (Post 1468190)
If you can explain how hosting two events with more teams will make more money, I'm interested.
Pretty simple... I'm sure FIRST profited from Champs last year, at 400 teams. Run a second version of Champs and you're profiting a second time.

MrRoboSteve 09-04-2015 11:57
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Some things to think about.

1. An event can get too big for any one city to support, hotel-wise.

2. Recruiting enough volunteers for our style of event in one city can be an issue. I know I've been hit up several times to sign up to volunteer at champs.

3. Having >1 champs is consistent with FIRST's mission around reach

4. This could be a first step toward a multi-tier playoff model leading back to a single championship in the future.

5. There's nothing about this that can't be changed back to a single event in 2021. At that point, though, you'll have teams used to 1000ish slots for Champs and complaints that it reduces access.

6. Having 2 events does increase the number of teams within driving distance, particularly the DET event. The west coast would not be a logical second location, if you are using driving distance as your metric. If the model is successful, I'd expect a championship in California to follow. Houston is a curious choice for the second location if you use transportation costs as a metric; I'm wondering whether there were facility availability reasons for that, as 2017 not very far away in the world of venue scheduling.

7. I could see 1,000 spots for champs in 2017 (600 in STL and 400 in DET)

8. I'm glad that they're willing to try something new, even if in the end it turns out to be less successful than expected.

ehochstein 09-04-2015 11:59
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This change benefits FLL and FTC more than FRC. In my opinion, this will be a good change because it will allow for more FLL and FTC teams to attend. The number of FRC teams able to attend FIRST Championships is outrageous compared to the number of FLL and FTC teams combined.

PayneTrain 09-04-2015 11:59
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1468193)
I'm really surprised the FIRST apologists aren't out in force on this one.

Or are even they disillusioned by this?
They may be at events since you know, they made this announcement on day 1 of three of the five biggest non-CMP events on the FRC Calendar.

Munchskull 09-04-2015 12:00
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I was waiting for a late April Fools...

This is just not right.

MrRoboSteve 09-04-2015 12:00
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltman (Post 1468192)
$5000 a pop x 2 + the hotel kickbacks...completely a money grab. Still puts coast teams one high expense status.
Can you cite a source for your "hotel kickbacks" statement in regard to the FIRST Champs? I'm curious who is receiving the kickbacks and how much.

DCA Fan 09-04-2015 12:00
Re: Future First Championship News
 
You want to burn out key volunteers? This is how you burn out key volunteers.

I don't get the whole "geographic convenience" thing - sounds more like an excuse than an actual fact - my costs, coming from California, certainly won't be going down any. Frankly, if they were shooting for geography, they should've gone east-west.

While I'm excited that more teams will be able to participate, I thought that was what the 8 divisions was for. Did we outgrow that model before it even had a chance to show itself?

Steven Donow 09-04-2015 12:00
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1468193)
I'm really surprised the FIRST apologists aren't out in force on this one.

Or are even they disillusioned by this?
I would argue that I'm fairly often a FIRST-apologist (I enjoyed Aerial Assist from the beginning and don't absolutely hate Recycle Rush...and yes, Schreiber constantly reminds me of the fact), and even I think this is absolutely idiotic.

Also St. Louis/Houston are both much warmer than Detroit =(

BigJ 09-04-2015 12:00
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Well, I can only hope that we qualify for the last real world championship (for now)...

dodar 09-04-2015 12:00
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1468199)
They may be at events since you know, they made this announcement on day 1 of three of the five biggest non-CMP events on the FRC Calendar.
Its odd how and when they announced it. Kind of seems to have been tried to slide under the radar of the FIRST community.

mman1506 09-04-2015 12:01
Re: Future First Championship News
 
By time we've booked a coach bus, hotel room and insurance the cost difference between going to St.Louis and Detroit isn't huge. Rather than spending resources on creating a 2nd champs FIRST should put those resources into lowering the cost of competing with programs like districts. Would teams really rather go to one event and "half champs" than 2 events, a intermediate champs and full champs?

bigbeezy 09-04-2015 12:01
Re: Future First Championship News
 
One of the best parts of Champs this year is that I get to see and compete with my old team. See friends, old mentors, teams I used to compete against. Beginning in 2017, that can't happen...

And why Detroit? Michigan already has a State Championship.

Those that were in Houston in 2003, everything I had heard was it was awful. I wasn't there. Has the area changed much in the past 12 years?

ehochstein 09-04-2015 12:01
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1468195)
Pretty simple... I'm sure FIRST profited from Champs last year, at 400 teams. Run a second version of Champs and you're profiting a second time.
Because a non-profit, profits? Any money that goes into FIRST only benefits FIRST teams and makes the program better. I don't see any issue with FIRST getting more money, they are very transparent in what it is used for.

mlantry 09-04-2015 12:03
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 1468177)
So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?
Take my money VEX

Boltman 09-04-2015 12:03
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehochstein (Post 1468208)
Because a non-profit, profits? Any money that goes into FIRST only benefits FIRST teams and makes the program better. I don't see any issue with FIRST getting more money, they are very transparent in what it is used for.
So you see no issue with providing two diluted events as long as FIRST makes more money??

Its ridiculous the amount of money the average first team needs to raise to go to more than one event including a new diluted championship. Regardless of what the non-profit does with it. There's common sense.

Lower costs if they go this route...yet we all know that will not happen. Someone gets that money sure isn't FRC teams.

cgmv123 09-04-2015 12:03
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehochstein (Post 1468208)
they are very transparent in what it is used for.
They could be way better about disclosing expenses.

AlecMataloni 09-04-2015 12:03
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I hate this.

I hate this so much.

Never have I ever questioned my involvement in this program more than I have now. Taking the community and slicing it in half may have benefits, but they are absolutely outweighed by the negatives. I don't even know where to begin.

I hope this nonsense is short lived. Otherwise, I'll be finding a different program to invest my time in.

zachrobo1 09-04-2015 12:03
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Out of the things I have seen in this thread, most people are opposed to this change because of the competition aspect. People like competition, and they want to crown a champion.

That's great, but does that line up with FIRST's vision? I don't think so. If you need a reminder, FIRST's vision is:

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders."

If that means making it more accessible to more students by making two championships, so be it. From what I've seen, FIRST really isn't very concerned with the drawbacks that this system has in regards to competition. They feel like Champs is a totally unique experience, and the more kids that go experience it, the better they fulfil their mission.

lynca 09-04-2015 12:04
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeezy (Post 1468207)
Those that were in Houston in 2003, everything I had heard was it was awful. I wasn't there. Has the area changed much in the past 12 years?
2003 was Reliant Stadium & the astrodome.
2017 will be GRB , Minute Maid & Toyota Center

The hate and anger needs to slow down in this thread. Think constructive not destructive criticism.

jlmcmchl 09-04-2015 12:04
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1468206)
By time we've booked a coach bus, hotel room and insurance the cost difference between going to St.Louis and Detroit isn't huge. Rather than spending resources on creating a 2nd champs FIRST should put those resources into lowering the cost of competing with programs like districts. Would teams really rather go to one event and "half champs" than 3 events and full champs?
There was a blog post before the beginning of the year that released their plan to introduce a wholesome district system by 2017; where every team would participate in the system.

JohnSchneider 09-04-2015 12:04
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve (Post 1468197)
Some things to think about.

1. An event can get too big for any one city to support, hotel-wise.

2. Recruiting enough volunteers for our style of event in one city can be an issue. I know I've been hit up several times to sign up to volunteer at champs.

3. Having >1 champs is consistent with FIRST's mission around reach

4. This could be a first step toward a multi-tier playoff model leading back to a single championship in the future.

5. There's nothing about this that can't be changed back to a single event in 2021. At that point, though, you'll have teams used to 1000ish slots for Champs and complaints that it reduces access.

6. Having 2 events does increase the number of teams within driving distance, particularly the DET event. The west coast would not be a logical second location, if you are using driving distance as your metric. If the model is successful, I'd expect a championship in California to follow. Houston is a curious choice for the second location if you use transportation costs as a metric; I'm wondering whether there were facility availability reasons for that, as 2017 not very far away in the world of venue scheduling.

7. I could see 1,000 spots for champs in 2017 (600 in STL and 400 in DET)

8. I'm glad that they're willing to try something new, even if in the end it turns out to be less successful than expected.
Then decrease the number of people going to "championship" by adding an intermediary competition. More teams get to experience "moving on against tougher competition" without causing the integrity of the sport to suffer.

vhcook 09-04-2015 12:05
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Well, I guess I now understand how the Georgia teams felt when Championships left Atlanta. I'm going to miss being able to go every year as a volunteer and spectator. When I do go it's going to be a lot more expensive and require more vacation days, and I'm going to have to pick which half of the world I want to see playing, since there's no way I can afford the vacation time or the travel costs of going to both.

I really dislike the idea of my team being cut off from half the teams in the world with whatever the geographic border ends up being. We're about equidistant from Detroit and Houston, so I can't guess which way we'll get assigned. There are so many amazing team combinations that will never be possible at a regular-season event again -- for example, the Texas and FIM powerhouses will never see each other before off-season events. I understand that Championships has turned into a city-melter in terms of event logistics/hotel space/etc, and I am somewhat sympathetic to wanting to get more teams to championships, particularly for FTC/FLL; however, I think this is going to reduce the quality of the FRC event substantially.

Initial reaction: :(

Wetzel 09-04-2015 12:05
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1468195)
Pretty simple... I'm sure FIRST profited from Champs last year, at 400 teams. Run a second version of Champs and you're profiting a second time.
I was under the impression that they didn't, but I'm running from anecdotes and conversations rather than hard data.

Eugene Fang 09-04-2015 12:05
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecMataloni (Post 1468214)
Taking the community and slicing it in half may have benefits, but they are absolutely outweighed by the negatives. I don't even know where to begin.
This. I don't always attend champs, but when I do, I look forward to catching up with familiar faces from across the country. With this change, I would have to choose seeing one half over the other each year.

Hallry 09-04-2015 12:05
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I would much rather have gone the Super Regional --> World Championship route...

jwfoss 09-04-2015 12:05
Re: Future First Championship News
 
So basically... FRC now stands for FIRST Robotics Convention

Munchskull 09-04-2015 12:06
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Can we start a petition against this?

BigJ 09-04-2015 12:06
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachrobo1 (Post 1468215)
Out of the things I have seen in this thread, most people are opposed to this change because of the competition aspect. People like competition, and they want to crown a champion.

That's great, but does that line up with FIRST's vision? I don't think so. If you need a reminder, FIRST's vision is:

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders."

If that means making it more accessible to more students by making two championships, so be it. From what I've seen, FIRST really isn't very concerned with the drawbacks that this system has in regards to competition. They feel like Champs is a totally unique experience, and the more kids that go experience it, the better they fulfil their mission.
I get what you're saying but FRC is supposed to be the competitive level of FIRST.

I guess teams should be looking forward to more Recycle Rush type games if this attitude is what the GDC and FIRST staff have in mind for FRC now.

dodar 09-04-2015 12:07
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchskull (Post 1468224)
Can we start a petition against this?
Thats what this thread is.

WillRobinson 09-04-2015 12:07
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Was this video previously released on April 1st?

JVN 09-04-2015 12:07
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 1468177)
So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?
VEX Robotics and Innovation First International, Inc. are proud supporters and Crown Suppliers of FIRST.

We remain committed to supporting the FIRST Robotics Competition and FRC Teams everywhere.

Hallry 09-04-2015 12:07
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchskull (Post 1468224)
Can we start a petition against this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1468226)
Thats what this thread is.
Has there been a single positive post about this change yet in this thread?

dodar 09-04-2015 12:08
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1468229)
Has there been a single positive post about this change yet in this thread?
Ive seen all negative, some neutral, but not a single positive post; and thats counting as this is the 88th post.

Carl C 09-04-2015 12:09
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I really wish that FIRST would have asked for feedback before signing the contracts.

At this point, it is probably too late for anything to change.

Kpchem 09-04-2015 12:09
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1468222)
I would much rather have gone the Super Regional --> World Championship route...
I'd completely forgotten about this! I remember seeing this when it was first released and I loved the concept, even if the regions seemed to be too large in some places.

What happened to this, and has it ever been discussed that this wasn't the plan (until now)?

pastelpony 09-04-2015 12:09
Re: Future First Championship News
 
This is a real step backward. This means that teams from NE and such will be unable to physically contact those in the West and make it virtually impossible to crown a real champion.

who716 09-04-2015 12:09
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I dont like this at all:
1. being in CT we can't even afford to go to st. louis, so yes detroit is slightly closer to us, but is it close enough to really make a difference in cost. probably not.

2. if we do go to championship in detroit, chances are ill never be able to see 148, 118, possibly even 254 at an event.

3. championship is best out of the best. would basketball have an east coast championship playoff and a separate westcoast playoff. declaring two champions.... absolutely not then the questions is going to arise who is truly the best robot in the WORLD the west coast team or the east coast team. from a fan's perspective who has no knowledge of first what are they going to think of this?

2012 the last year we went to championship was one of the best event of my life, not because of the location, but because we were able to walk around see teams from all over the world, and how their teams differ from ours. And the fact we were able to be nationally ranked among the top team in the world.

finally they are concerned about getting more teams to go, but do all the teams deserve to go. Yes it would be great for the students to gain the experience but would the championship then be the best of the best, do all 32 nfl teams make it to the playoffs no.

so im not sure how i feel about this seems like a 2nd mistake.

PayneTrain 09-04-2015 12:09
Re: Future First Championship News
 
People asking why we don't add an intermediary level of comeptition between R/SCMP and WCMP must not be raising money for their team's registration fees.

I could see a Super Regional/World Championship setup working if World Champs goes down to a 150 team event in the summer, like a super IRI, and FIRST works out a deal with a sponsor (or broadcaster?) to eliminate registration fees. Take all 16 Super Regional Winners, all 4 Championship Chairman's Award Finalists, the top 120 teams not in these categories, and the last 10 go to something like top 10 rookies or HoF teams.

James1902 09-04-2015 12:10
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynca (Post 1468216)
The hate and anger needs to slow down in this thread. Think constructive not destructive criticism.
I suppose that's fair. It just feels like this MASSIVE CHANGE to a thing we all love dearly has been dropped on our heads like an anvil and a few of us needed to vent.

Trying to be constructive: I feel that a better move that would achieve the stated goals of this change (more access to better events, bigger FIRST events in more cities, etc.) would be to add intermediary levels between regionals and the championships (many people mentioned district champs as that level). This gives more people more access to quality events but still keeps the prestige and inspiration of a Championship.

smistthegreat 09-04-2015 12:10
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1468222)
I would much rather have gone the Super Regional --> World Championship route...
So this plan was published in 2011. What has changed since then to make FIRST drastically alter the competition structure?

CalTran 09-04-2015 12:10
Re: Future First Championship News
 
FIRST is 80% of why I even have friends around the country and internationally, and now if I want to see them I'd have to set aside 2 weekends plus whatever else I'm mentoring and volunteering for? Good grief.
On top of this, you only become the best of the half of whatever first deems you the best of. I don't like the split, I don't like the doubling down on awards, and I don't like how much of a hassle this will be.

At what point do they announce which championship you get to go to? A lot of teams, mine included, set aside plans in the fall on where we would stay, how much it'll cost, and how we're going to get to the Championships. Now that we potentially have to create 2 separate plans, one possibly costing more, would be such a pain.

At the very least, since one "Championship" is a week ahead of the other, what're the chances they could bring the winning alliance from that one to the one after for a crowning match?

Justin Montois 09-04-2015 12:10
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I can't describe how disappointing this announcement is.

Based on the geographic assignments outlined in the FAQ section, basically I won't be at a World Championship with the incredible teams on the West Coast and Midwest / Mountain Region ever again.

FIRST claims they are doing this to give more kids "the Championship experience." What is the Championship experience exactly?

For me, it's seeing the best robots and learning from those teams from all over the World. That's it.

Now I won't see half of the best teams and instead will see more average teams. I'm sorry but that ruins the Championship event for me.

2 Different sets of World Champions that never play each other? Multiple Chairman's Award? I agree with Adam. Lets just call every event a World Championship and be done with it.

In other news, everyone leaves with one of these!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 1468177)
So....

Inaugural Vex Pro Competition in 2017?!?
Yuuuuuppppppppppppppppppppppp

Akash Rastogi 09-04-2015 12:11
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I'm not just upset, I'm disappointed. Things were looking so good for a while. Frank was my hero because it sounded like he was on the same page as us. Why did this change happen out of nowhere?

So disappointed. There is no energy like the energy at World Champs.

jman4747 09-04-2015 12:11
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Noooooo! :eek: Atlanta mayor/GA governor why? Fingers crossed for 2019 :(

Pauline Tasci 09-04-2015 12:11
Re: Future First Championship News
 
I love how all of us came together and are trashing how bad this decision actually is.
Hopefully, FIRST realizes the same.

scooty199 09-04-2015 12:11
Re: Future First Championship News
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnageNick (Post 1468164)
This is also almost guaranteed to conflict the VEX World Championship nearly every year from now on unless VEX bends over backwards to not conflict, which they already went out of their way to do this year with only one FIRST Championship event.
Exactly. And because I mentor teams in both programs, I can't feasibly take off two weeks of work for these events. Having to pick one or the other isn't fun.


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