Chief Delphi
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   Rules/Strategy (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Point Value Changes for Champs (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136511)

pandamonium 10-04-2015 12:46
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Changing Auto points would absolutely help! 16pts for 3 staging zone bins seems about right

Wired_Mike 10-04-2015 13:46
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
RC= 12 pts per level but -2 per level for each RC retrieved from the step by your alliance , would greatly balance one's consideration for those center cans.

If one alliance grabbed 3 off the step and the other none and all made six stacks with every one of those containers, the points would be equal (not including other contributors towards score) therefore making the alliance re-evaluate how much they "need" those center RCs.

Matt_Boehm_329 10-04-2015 13:56
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wired_Mike (Post 1469176)
RC= 12 pts per level but -2 per level for each RC retrieved from the step by your alliance , would greatly balance one's consideration for those center cans.

If one alliance grabbed 3 off the step and the other none and all made six stacks with every one of those containers, the points would be equal (not including other contributors towards score) therefore making the alliance re-evaluate how much they "need" those center RCs.
So why grab cans then if the other team who didn't would score the same amount of points? or is this to allow both teams to grab 2? If so why not just start each side with 5 then?

Wired_Mike 10-04-2015 17:28
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Boehm_329 (Post 1469182)
So why grab cans then if the other team who didn't would score the same amount of points? or is this to allow both teams to grab 2? If so why not just start each side with 5 then?
This would pressure teams to consider the equilibrial effect of can grabbing.

If you left the center step cans alone and just had three you may be able to score more individual tote points after the stacks are made, or if you took 3 RC's plus the 3 you had you could more effectively score litter. It would put more emphasis on the strategical skills rather then the skills of the bot itself. Teams would have to more reasonably consider the pitfalls of grabbing a center RC but not being able to use it.

Edit: Sorry, had a realization, the points wouldn't be equal due to the larger number of totes stacked by the alliance with (6) six tall RC stacks in the first place, was thinking too much about RCs and forgot about the 36 additional pts of totes making up those other three stacks.

P.S. This originally predicted rule change was made when I was a little tired + creative, and I understand it isn't the most realistic idea.

Rangel 10-04-2015 17:43
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Honestly a point value adjustment would be a great improvement to the game if it was made far earlier in the season. At least for us, we are halfway through doing a big redesign for the game we knew was going to happen at champs. Changing the game now would be a huge blow for us and any other teams that may have made big redesigns specifically because they knew the center cans were so critical. If it does happen, I would much rather it happen right now or as soon as humanely possible so teams can make accommodations as nessasary.

themccannman 10-04-2015 17:49
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
If the yellow auto stack was worth 8,000,000 points it wouldn't change anything except for the fact that if a team failed auto they would just immediately throw in the towel. The can races would still happen. There is no solution to the can race with the current game setup, if there is any advantage to be gained by having more RCs then people will always be racing for them, if there's no advantage to be gained then every alliance will just ignore them completely, everyone will build there 3 stacks, run auto, then stop playing because the center RCs wouldn't help them at all.

Nothing will change at champs, nothing should change either, there is no solution to "balancing" the center cans, there will always be RC races as long as they are worth any points at all.

Abhishek R 10-04-2015 17:54
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by themccannman (Post 1469330)
If the yellow auto stack was worth 8,000,000 points it wouldn't change anything except for the fact that if a team failed auto they would just immediately throw in the towel. The can races would still happen. There is no solution to the can race with the current game setup, if there is any advantage to be gained by having more RCs then people will always be racing for them, if there's no advantage to be gained then every alliance will just ignore them completely, everyone will build there 3 stacks, run auto, then stop playing because the center RCs wouldn't help them at all.

Nothing will change at champs, nothing should change either, there is no solution to "balancing" the center cans, there will always be RC races as long as they are worth any points at all.
Agreed, if a change were to happen it needs to disincentivize the cans in the middle. Originally I was thinking making the container set worth more (since it's pretty rare, maybe teams would try and make that happen instead of getting the cans from the step) but honestly, most people (including me) would take the cans over anything else any day, the rewards are huge.

MrJohnston 14-04-2015 16:09
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
I wouldn't change the points at all - teams specifically design robots with they point system in mind... However, something that might make things more interesting: Place an additional recycling container on the coopertition step.

TDav540 14-04-2015 16:19
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Screw (Post 1469064)
I think it would be nice to either reduce the points that RCs have (4-->2 per level), or increase the amount totes give (2-->3 per tote).

I would like to see alliances that can score all 8 6-stacks (5HP, 3 landfill) compete with those that steal cans in auto.

Alliance 1: 8 6-stacks, 3 with RCs: 8*6*2+4*6*3= 168

Alliance 2: 5 6-stacks, all with RCs: 5*6*2+4*6*5= 180

A very exciting match, yes, but it was over in the first few seconds in auto. Not counting litter or auto (about the same if both alliances do it), the alliance that scored everything it could lost to an alliance that still has 2 RCs and 18 totes.

Now with reduced RC value,

Alliance 1: 8 6-stacks, 3 with RCs: 8*6*2+2*6*3= 132

Alliance 2: 5 6-stacks, all with RCs: 5*6*2+2*6*5= 120

This way, the alliance that scored 3 more sets of totes is rewarded with the win. Alliance 2 would have to work harder to win (just one more stack of 3totes+RC to tie). However, this scoring method would lower scores, messing with OPR and such.

Increasing tote worth,

Alliance 1: 8 6-stacks, 3 with RCs: 8*6*3+4*6*3= 216

Alliance 2: 5 6-stacks, all with RCs: 5*6*3+4*6*5= 210

In this case, Alliance 1 would have a very close victory, but still be rewarded with scoring everything they can. If alliance 2 steps up their game, they could easily win.

My point is that I don't believe that 1 container should add 2 stacks worth of points. This system will decide matches based on who can get the containers in auto first. Last second stacks will have no meaning without containers, and all excitement will be lost after the first 5 seconds of the match.
This idea still makes a lot of sense to me. As covered pretty well, the Great Can Races of 2015 will still happen regardless of the value of other game elements. However, if we slightly reduce the value of RCs (4 points per level to maybe 2 or 3) or increase the value of totes (3 points?) then, as Loose Screw shows, maybe the matches become a little bit more interesting post-auto?

dellagd 14-04-2015 16:21
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
The only thing worth changing is the points awarded for the auto sets (robot, can, tote). Right now most alliances don't even worry about getting auto points because they matter so little relative to the final match score. Making the sets worth more would encourage more cooperation amongst alliance members, possibly leading to some code cheesecaking during the quals, which I think is a pretty rare occurrence right now.

Changing anything else is a major strategic change to the game. Good teams analyzed the points system back in January in order to optimize their chances of success. Any changes to the center cans, auto stacks, tote points, litter points, ect. would devalue the work that people put into strategy in the beginning of the year.

MrJohnston 14-04-2015 16:24
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Raising the points for autonomous sets would completely devalue the work teams with an autonomous stack put in through the course of the season.

dellagd 14-04-2015 16:29
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJohnston (Post 1470880)
Raising the points for autonomous sets would completely devalue the work teams with an autonomous stack put in through the course of the season.
Not necessarily. Things like making a robot set worth more than 4 points doesn't change that. You can work to see if you can get both in auto instead of just running the 3-tote auto and making sure the other two teams are clear of your path.

Jared Russell 14-04-2015 16:54
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Restrictions on noodle throwing would be the only thing there is any chance of us seeing, and even then I doubt it (unfortunately).

Bryce Paputa 14-04-2015 17:01
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1470879)
The only thing worth changing is the points awarded for the auto sets (robot, can, tote). Right now most alliances don't even worry about getting auto points because they matter so little relative to the final match score. Making the sets worth more would encourage more cooperation amongst alliance members, possibly leading to some code cheesecaking during the quals, which I think is a pretty rare occurrence right now.

Changing anything else is a major strategic change to the game. Good teams analyzed the points system back in January in order to optimize their chances of success. Any changes to the center cans, auto stacks, tote points, litter points, ect. would devalue the work that people put into strategy in the beginning of the year.
This. Week one we saw that autonomous was 28 points maximum and decided that it would be nice, but not something we would put much effort into, especially when the center cans can be worth 60 points in a good match. We would be a little mad if this was invalidated by a 60 point auto stack. Increasing auto sets however would be an interesting change that could possibly increase competition without messing with strategy too much.

By the way, we (and 548, 68, 469, and many other teams) got 0 autonomous points total at the Michigan state championships. Our team valued lining up to the tote chute in autonomous more than a slight chance at 4-12 points (when we weren't bin stealing). I know that 548 got their robot into the auto zone in basically every match, and yet not once did their partners also get into it.

MrJohnston 14-04-2015 18:19
Re: Point Value Changes for Champs
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellagd (Post 1470881)
Not necessarily. Things like making a robot set worth more than 4 points doesn't change that. You can work to see if you can get both in auto instead of just running the 3-tote auto and making sure the other two teams are clear of your path.
As a team, we chose to do the autonomous stack and, in doing so, made specific design decisions and dedicated countless hours to that specific end. We recognized that robot and bin sets would be rare as, at lower levels, too many teams would be incapable of doing their parts and, at higher levels, the center bins would be far more important. In other words, the autonomous stack was going to be nearly the only autonomous points score - a bonus of about half a full stack that would not be affected by the draining of resources.

If, however, other autonomous routines are given increased values, other robots will take the time to do them - reducing the relative value of the three-tote stack to other autonomous routines. "Adjusting" the three tote stack to also get a robot set is not necessarily easy or something that can be done at this point as our robot is sitting in St. Louis as I type.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:37.
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi