Center Can Dilemma
 

With the presence of multiple stacking kings per division at champs this year, practicing with the center cans in qualifications might cause some problems.

For example, our team is working on an autonomous mode that takes two center cans and brings them into the auto zone. We will likely run into several matches where these cans will be needed to cap stacks for the opposing alliance, but will not be so needed by our alliance in teleop. Also, imho we are not fast enough at taking the cans that the function will be eliminations-worthy.

So, at what point is taking the cans un-gp? We’d like tons of practice, and the potential auto points are a nice bonus, but it doesn’t seem right to deny dozens of points from the other alliance for the chance that we could get only 8. What do we do if an opponent actually asks us not to take cans? Have any other teams been in this same boat?

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Would you not block an opposing robot in aerial assault if they told you not to?
Do whatever you want with those cans, it's part of the game :yikes:

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

I would never ask the opposing alliance not to run their canburgling auto and I don't think it'd be un gp to tell the other alliance no if they asked. Qualifications are about trying to rank as high as possible and showing off for elims. By not can burgling you're hurting your own alliance and the way scouters are evaluating your team from the stands.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

IMO, the only un-GP behaviors you could do in regards to the center cans would be to intentionally sabotage one particular team. Either by only using your fast can-burglar against one particular team and letting other teams get ahead of them, or by convincing other teams to similarly sabotage one particular team. Using it as much as possible is actually the most GP and in the spirit of the game, since it's supposed to be about your robot doing the best it can.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

There is no point at which this becomes "un-gp". Who cares if the other alliance doesn't want you to take the cans? They're your matches that your team payed for so do whatever you want, don't let a team try to determine what you do in your matches. Even if you don't end up using the cans in stacks, you are playing a form of "defense" by disallowing those cans that the other alliance could have used in their stacks.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

It looks to me like the object of the game is to score points, and the way you score a lot of points is by putting cans on stacks of totes. So get those cans, and put them on totes.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Idk, I agree going around telling teams to race this team and not others is pretty shady and shouldn't be a thing but I think racing particular teams yourself is solid strategy and the equivalent of playing defense on a powerhouse.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Thanks so much you all for the fast feedback! I just wanted to make sure nobody would see this as a reason to be irked at us. :o

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

I should clarify. I meant, let's say you are on Curie field, have a beef with 1114, and have a faster canburglar than they do. If in every match against them you targeted their cans, but against all other teams you let the cans go free, you would be sandbagging one team in particular by raising every other team's relative scores. This would require you to manipulate the cans based on how well the teams on each side were doing to maximize everyone's scores.

There isn't anything wrong with aiming your canburglar at a particular team, that's just good strategy.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

By employing such strategy even without using the cans in teleop, you are in a sense playing one of the only forms of defense possible in this game. Taking those cans effectively limits the opposing alliance's possible score. Take that how you want, but it's completely logical for you to do so.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Not just the cans...Empty that shelf completely, and replace it all w/ that golden Coop stack 6 high if you can in the first 35 seconds. LOl.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Yes. And if you can't score the points yourself, then denying your opponents the opportunity to score the points is the next best thing. It's basic game theory.

I don't think the OP should be concerned.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

The only opportunity for bad Gracious Professionalism here is in reneging on any agreements with your opposing alliance. Your have the right to make any rule-abiding strategic decisions with your own alliance that you want. However, if your opponents come up to you and ask what your plan with the center cans is, maybe because they don't want to risk damaging their grabber in the quals or whatever, and you lie to them, then that is un-GP.

Just saying you'd rather not say is perfectly acceptable too, even if it might come off as a little coy in a qual match. In my experience, a simple conversation with the opposing alliance's coaches can solve most center can issues pretty quickly.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

As said above, "You've paid to be there" and have earned a spot in the World Championship. You have just as much right to practice with those RC's as any other team on the field.
If they needed them so much for THEIR game strategy, then they should have developed a can theft auto program faster than yours to get them (you wouldn't feel un-gp if they took them from you, would you?)

PLAY YOUR GAME!!!

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Go for the throat.

Uhhh I mean cans.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Never.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

We're on Curie and we want to trot out our new can burglar. It's supposed to be super fast and strong. It would be great if we had already established our can theft abilities in earlier competitions so that we wouldn't have to "try it out" at World's (we have practiced it successfully) but part of FIRST is to continue to innovate and improve. I've thought of 1114 and how best to compete against them and I have appreciated this thread. If we're good at can burgling, we'll probably use it every match, as long as it doesn't take away from making our double-can-with-noodle 6 stacks. I have no problem, though, of using it judiciously against certain teams if the stats show it's the best way to go. I think crossing the line comes if we were to try to convince other teams to selectively use their skills against other teams. It feels un-gp and ultimately I think it's unnecessary. I think most teams are smart enough to figure out a winning strategy.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Erm. Go for the cans. Definitely not un-GP. It's strategic. And it's how a team of average robots can beat a powerhouse team, or get the scores closer. Good luck at champs.

Strategically, 1114 will pick someone other than 148 who has an extremely fast can grab. If they go with 148, you could probably beat them (as you'd get the cans). However, if 1114 gets a very good can grabber robot, or gets a better can grabber, it's going to be hard to beat them.

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

It is called the First Robotics Competition

I'm late to the party, but play the game in a way that is the best for your team :] .

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

I'm happy you guys finally got it working; I had been informed that you were working on one, and that's the kind of thing that could've helped youall get to finals at District Champs (I was rooting for you guys ;))... gonna miss those LEDs though

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

Not un-GP, you can do what you want as long as you aren't reneging on a deal made with the opposing alliance.

We made a lot of said deals in qualifications at MAR champs with the opposing alliance (i.e. you get your right-side cans, we get our right-side cans). We even made a deal with 1218 to let each other have right-side cans so both alliances would score more points during SF5. Each time we made a deal, it was in the name of everyone scoring more points (since nobody was getting even close to using 6 cans).

Re: Center Can Dilemma
 

If you have nothing better to do in auto, run your can grabbers. It shows the higher teams that you can use them and that your design is consistent. Champs is going to want alot of good can grabbers so if you have them use them. :D Best of luck!